Streaming Westworld

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Bostonian said:
No surprise really that once a show called Westworld left the old west setting it was based on it started to suck.
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I disagree, I think there was plenty to work with, but they got too clever for themselves in S2, then too linear and simple (and rushed) in S3.

Season 1 was great because it wasn't rushed, it had this slow methodical build to an unexpected climax where the story you thought you were following, wasn't really the story at all. I'm not sure whether maybe the writers or people involved were changed after that?

Hopkins also carried the season brilliantly in hindsight.
 
Sounds like it's just a push for more cash by the producers as it really could have ended at the credits as someone else said.. and was maybe even meant to?
 

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Fwoy said:
pretty sure they said it was a five season story at the beginning...
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Oh okay I thought I read an article someone posted recently where the producers had decided to extend for another season which was a bit of a surprise to the writers or something.
 
BlakeyNoFlakey said:
In the end, I didn't mind season 4. Although, I agree Dolores's plan did seem convoluted in the end. I get all the free will stuff and that was Caleb's purpose, to use free will to decide the future of humanity by choosing to make Incite wipe itself. But it's hardly free will if Dolores spent the season convincing him that's what he should do anyway. Maybe that's the irony of free will, when we think we have it, we don't. When we don't think we have it, we do. I liked the end credits scene, bad Dolores is building an army by the looks of it.
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In season 2 they convoluted the timelines for no reason apart from just to confuse the audience. Season 3 they made Dolores's motives convoluted for the same reason. She jumps about between mass murderer, even killing her own clones, then saying she is going to save the world and 'choosing to see the beauty'.

Caleb's character also shows inconsistency. We've been told that he used to round up people at gunpoint, and that his life was fully controlled. This week we are told that he's actually a nice guy, who has freewill. A one off encounter with him in Counter Terrorist World is enough for Dolores to arrange a complex set of events because the world will be safe in his hands? It doesn't ring true.

Holding information back from the audience, or giving subtle clues - with an eventual pay off - is good writing. Confusing the audience just for the sake of it poor writing. As is the extensive use of voice overs. Often, it's not clear who the character is talking to in the show - because it's actually a lazy shortcut to explaining things to the TV audience. Other lazy writing was Dolores falling then landing on a dead body - direct from Jason Bourne. The buildings exploding at the end is from Fight Club.

Some of the direction was also piss poor. The repeated Stormtrooper shoot outs. The worst car chase in screen history. The riot scenes were ridiculously unrealistic. The stupid fight scenes between Dolores and Maeve.
 
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sorted said:
In season 2 they convoluted the timelines for no reason apart from just to confuse the audience. Season 3 they made Dolores's motives convoluted for the same reason. She jumps about between mass murderer, even killing her own clones, then saying she is going to save the world and 'choosing to see the beauty'.

Caleb's character also shows inconsistency. We've been told that he used to round up people at gunpoint, and that his life was fully controlled. This week we are told that he's actually a nice guy, who has freewill. A one off encounter with him in Counter Terrorist World is enough for Dolores to arrange a complex set of events because the world will be safe in his hands? It doesn't ring true.

Holding information back from the audience, or giving subtle clues - with an eventual pay off - is good writing. Confusing the audience just for the sake of it poor writing. As is the extensive use of voice overs. Often, it's not clear who the character is talking to in the show - because it's actually a lazy shortcut to explaining things to the TV audience. Other lazy writing was Dolores falling then landing on a dead body - direct from Jason Bourne. The buildings exploding at the end is from Fight Club.

Some of the direction was also piss poor. The repeated Stormtrooper shoot outs. The worst car chase in screen history. The riot scenes were ridiculously unrealistic. The stupid fight scenes between Dolores and Maeve.
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I pretty much agree with everything you've written. A lot of the character's motivations seemed really inconsistent, which for me is even worse than being convoluted just for the sake of confusion (which is what Season 2's biggest downfall was).

The other thing I'd add is that the pacing of the season seemed really off to me. A big part was that it seemed to stay with the same characters for much longer periods of times, so it lacked the dynamics of seeing different characters reacting to their circumstances. I'm not sure if or how that could've been changed, but it just sucked a lot of the momentum out of each episode.

And finally, my biggest frustration with the whole season was just how low the stakes were. I have absolutely zero care about the world being destroyed. All the main characters who I did care about were almost impossible to kill, or they just came back. I'm pretty sure I don't care about any of the characters anymore.
 
MC Bad Genius said:
I pretty much agree with everything you've written. A lot of the character's motivations seemed really inconsistent, which for me is even worse than being convoluted just for the sake of confusion (which is what Season 2's biggest downfall was).

The other thing I'd add is that the pacing of the season seemed really off to me. A big part was that it seemed to stay with the same characters for much longer periods of times, so it lacked the dynamics of seeing different characters reacting to their circumstances. I'm not sure if or how that could've been changed, but it just sucked a lot of the momentum out of each episode.

And finally, my biggest frustration with the whole season was just how low the stakes were. I have absolutely zero care about the world being destroyed. All the main characters who I did care about were almost impossible to kill, or they just came back. I'm pretty sure I don't care about any of the characters anymore.
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It's like the writers skipped class when the instructor covered creating dramatic screen tension.

Establish a clear motivation and goal for your main characters.
Then raise the stakes by introducing story elements to increasingly add aspects of risk to those characters so that the audience can empathise with their hopes and fears as they struggle to achieve that goal.

By contrast, in WW3 the motivations of the main characters was deliberately obscured. And as you say the stakes were very low. Why should we care about these characters and their goals when their deaths mean nothing?
 
sorted said:
It's like the writers skipped class when the instructor covered creating dramatic screen tension.

Establish a clear motivation and goal for your main characters.
Then raise the stakes by introducing story elements to increasingly add aspects of risk to those characters so that the audience can empathise with their hopes and fears as they struggle to achieve that goal.

By contrast, in WW3 the motivations of the main characters was deliberately obscured. And as you say the stakes were very low. Why should we care about these characters and their goals when their deaths mean nothing?
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It's bizarre isn't it, Delores could always be killed and resurrected. In Season 1 we felt the pain and tension of each death as she slowly became aware of what was happening to her, cringing each time she died even though she was always going to come back. By Season 3 we just don't... care.
 
owen87 said:
It's bizarre isn't it
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Is it?

Nolan had an idea for a show, pitched it, it was a massive success, and then HBO said "ok we're making shitloads of money, let's keep it going until everyone gets bored of it".

I assume they had a beginning, middle, and end for their story (which was season 1) and now they're just making it up as they go along. Nolan's even said it is pointless planning ahead because they don't know how long people will keep watching it.
 
Toump Ass said:
Is it?

Nolan had an idea for a show, pitched it, it was a massive success, and then HBO said "ok we're making shitloads of money, let's keep it going until everyone gets bored of it".

I assume they had a beginning, middle, and end for their story (which was season 1) and now they're just making it up as they go along. Nolan's even said it is pointless planning ahead because they don't know how long people will keep watching it.
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Before the first season even came out, they were taking about a five season arc and they half production to make sure those early episodes fit in with the endgame. There's no doubt they had always anticipated hosts being in the real world, but it feels like they just flubbed it.
 

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MC Bad Genius said:
Before the first season even came out, they were taking about a five season arc and they half production to make sure those early episodes fit in with the endgame. There's no doubt they had always anticipated hosts being in the real world, but it feels like they just flubbed it.
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Not sure who "they" are but Nolan had this to say:

"There’s been reporting about deals and other stuff like that. But we’ve never actually talked out loud about how many seasons we imagine this thing going, because I think you’d be foolish to. Things change, circumstances change."

"When you have a show going like this, you want to stay as long as you’re telling a compelling story. We’re heading towards that end, but we haven’t completely mapped it out. At this point, part of the work is looking at the rest of the story we have to tell."

Maybe there was an idea of where the story could head once they left the park but in terms of both the plot and the theme the execution has been weak as piss.

(quotes are from here)
 
Given Nolan's last show successfully pulled off a multi-season plot arc, I find it hard to believe he didn't have at least a broad plan for multiple seasons

Plus there's this, where James Marsden said a production hiatus they had during the filming of season 1 happened so that Nolan/Joy could plan out 5 seasons
ew.com

'Westworld' has already figured out the next 5 seasons

Here's a secret reason why the production shut down last January
ew.com ew.com
 
drd23 said:
Given Nolan's last show successfully pulled off a multi-season plot arc, I find it hard to believe he didn't have at least a broad plan for multiple seasons

Plus there's this, where James Marsden said a production hiatus they had during the filming of season 1 happened so that Nolan/Joy could plan out 5 seasons
ew.com

'Westworld' has already figured out the next 5 seasons

Here's a secret reason why the production shut down last January
ew.com ew.com
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Yeah that's what I was referring to.
 
owen87 said:
Wonder if Ed Harris / William is the actual main character in all of this.

He's the only human from season 1 still with us isn't he?
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Yes and they have muddied the water around him.
Bernard would have to be the other. There’s a lot of simulacra or throw back with his character.
With those two it’s like a host wanting to be human and a human wanting to be a host.
 
Toump Ass said:
...
I assume they had a beginning, middle, and end for their story (which was season 1) and now they're just making it up as they go along. Nolan's even said it is pointless planning ahead because they don't know how long people will keep watching it.
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That would be the same for every tv show ever made wouldn't it? ie. you do a new show but you don't generally know if it will be picked up past season 1 until its shown. So you kinda have to do an ending that works for a self-contained story, but also leaves threads open to continue if you get picked up for subsequent seasons.

You can still map out a bigger narrative without the ending having to occur at the conclusion of season 1. Or to put it another way, at the conclusion of season 1 you don't need "the" ending, just "an" ending.
 
bourbons said:
That would be the same for every tv show ever made wouldn't it? ie. you do a new show but you don't generally know if it will be picked up past season 1 until its shown. So you kinda have to do an ending that works for a self-contained story, but also leaves threads open to continue if you get picked up for subsequent seasons.
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Maybe not every show ever. Breaking Bad had an obvious conclusion from the start, and someone was going to claim the throne in GoT. And it's not much of an issue for anthology-type series like Stranger Things.

Maybe you don't need "the" ending in season one, but it probably helps if you know what "the" ending is and have some idea of how you're going to get there, rather than just dragging in out until you're Walking Dead and no one cares anymore which seems to be how most shows go out these days.

drd23 said:
Plus there's this, where James Marsden said a production hiatus they had during the filming of season 1 happened so that Nolan/Joy could plan out 5 seasons
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That quote from Marsden might be what Nolan is refuting when he says they'd never spoken about the number of seasons.
 
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MC Bad Genius said:
I have absolutely zero care about the world being destroyed. All the main characters who I did care about were almost impossible to kill, or they just came back. I'm pretty sure I don't care about any of the characters anymore.
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Interesting, because I felt a bit that way in season one. I was probably looking for characters to care about but because there is so few humans in it and none are particularly likeable I found I never cared much about any characters but was at least enjoying the potential for the story around consciousness. I probably was more intrigued by Ford character but did not last long. Kept looking to find some emotional hook in story but it really is all tech based for most part. Has not progressed much in last two seasons for mine but if they make a fourth season there still is enough there if they revisit the whole consciousness exploration and get away from the pure revenge and wars to rage. Just does not have enough characters to care about and never did in season one either. I just do not think the writers due are talented enough to what had some much potential and big budget.

I just finished binge watching it this week.
 
footyfan1978 said:
Interesting, because I felt a bit that way in season one. I was probably looking for characters to care about but because there is so few humans in it and none are particularly likeable I found I never cared much about any characters but was at least enjoying the potential for the story around consciousness. I probably was more intrigued by Ford character but did not last long. Kept looking to find some emotional hook in story but it really is all tech based for most part. Has not progressed much in last two seasons for mine but if they make a fourth season there still is enough there if they revisit the whole consciousness exploration and get away from the pure revenge and wars to rage. Just does not have enough characters to care about and never did in season one either. I just do not think the writers due are talented enough to what had some much potential and big budget.

I just finished binge watching it this week.
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Even though Maeve and Dolores are hosts, I felt like I could cheer them on as they awakened their consciousness in season 1, but in the season just finished, there was just nothing in either of them to connect with. The whole show now feels like there is no consequence to anyone's actions.
 
Has anything fallen hard as quickly as Westworld? From best new drama of the year to who cares in the space of two seasons.
 
owen87 said:
I disagree, I think there was plenty to work with, but they got too clever for themselves in S2, then too linear and simple (and rushed) in S3.

Season 1 was great because it wasn't rushed, it had this slow methodical build to an unexpected climax where the story you thought you were following, wasn't really the story at all. I'm not sure whether maybe the writers or people involved were changed after that?

Hopkins also carried the season brilliantly in hindsight.
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It has the hallmarks of a series that was written over a long period of time, refined and perfected to be a single stand alone product.

Then it did well and the network threw a lot of money at the creators, so they put together something to last longer.

It happens and I don't blame them, everyone needs to eat and the big breaks don't come along frequently so you have to take what you can, plus all the people you work with would like to continue to have a job too - so who are you to turn down money for them for the artistic vision the network will probably attempt to continue without you anyway.

It happened with True Detective as well.
 
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