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JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
You have a very black and white simplistic view with such comments like bucketing coaches as good or no good based off being in a premiership window
Nope. I've never bucketed anyone as "good" or "no good", rather "used by date has come" and "used by date hasn't come", as well as "the opportunity doesn't come around often so when it does, you have to get it right and if the game plan isn't working, you need to change it before the opportunity disappears".

People like you have a tendency to have a view and anyone who disagree must think the exact opposite. What I think is way more complex than what you think I think. Yourself and another post can't understand why I think Simmo needs to be moved on but not others (who you believe are in the same circumstance). Again, that is simplistic.

im pointing out obvious flaws in what your saying
Let's see how it pans out. I'm saying Simmo will not seriously compete for a flag (ie. finish top 2) before we have to do a rebuild. I was right with Woosha. Let's see how I go here.
 

Chris_6678

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 29, 2007
18,773
22,825
Perth Western Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
No, I just watch every game and have an intimate knowledge of all the players, as well as our history. Everyone else accepts that I'm an Eagles supporter, so work it out.

As for calling my thinking dumb, I too think the "bury the head in the sand and support all eagles players and coaches no matter what" as both dumb and juvenile and I'm far from the only eagles supporter to think that.

Holding onto players, coaches and gameplan for too long has nothing to do with our success.

And just be be really really clear, I've supported the eagles from inception and watched every eagles game since the mid 90s. I turned it off at half time on Saturday. I think that's the first time I have done that. Priddis took me close to tuning out but I think I got through it.
You cant be that much of WC's history.

You mentioned we lost to Port in the 2008 finals which was 2007 and then you said we were Rubbish in 2011 at the end of Wooshas coaching days. We finished in the PF that year.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
You cant be that much of WC's history.

You mentioned we lost to Port in the 2008 finals which was 2007 and then you said we were Rubbish in 2011 at the end of Wooshas coaching days. We finished in the PF that year.
Not only with a question mark over it, but i clearly clarified it was my memory and i wasn't going to go and look up exacts.

Whatever the year was, there was many poster here who knew his time was up way before he was given the boot.

So I'm not sure what you want? Do you want to ping me for getting a vague recollection wrong? Ping me because you think I'm a Crows supporter here trolling you guys with stuff many of you agree with?

Wanting to change coaches is a polarising opinion. Many agree, some disagree but respect it, some will debate the pros and cons, and then there's people who get upset and want argue unrelated things with me.
 

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Astro7

Official Halftime Oranges Man
Aug 6, 2017
2,843
3,443
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From another angle, it is possible (although seemingly unlikely at this stage) that the team could turn a corner with the Derby and battle through till the bye with enough wins; then the cavalry and complete leadership arrives and hey-ho we are in unstoppable mode to the finals!
That would make all this "the sky is falling" panic talk, the cheesy meltdowns and piles of folded laundry stacked up with the sacked coaches look ridiculous...just saying.

Pages and pages of forensic dissections and cross examinations and nihilistic angst, then 'bingo' the team turns a corner and off we go, all is forgotten as we jump back on the merry bandwagon!?

We have played 6 games for 3-3, we have another 6 games before the bye and could be 6-6 or 9-3, it's all up in the air, an unknown....?
Footy is exciting, isn't it?
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
Pages and pages of forensic dissections and cross examinations and nihilistic angst, then 'bingo' the team turns a corner and off we go, all is forgotten as we jump back on the merry bandwagon!?
There's turning the corner and replicating the last two seasons, and turning the corner and being a genuine flag threat.

The first one I would have assumed after the Saints loss (now I'm doubtful), the second I think is highly unlikely and why I think a change needs to be made.
 

92942006

Team Captain
Jun 25, 2007
312
417
Melbourne
AFL Club
West Coast
No, I just watch every game and have an intimate knowledge of all the players, as well as our history. Everyone else accepts that I'm an Eagles supporter, so work it out.

As for calling my thinking dumb, I too think the "bury the head in the sand and support all eagles players and coaches no matter what" as both dumb and juvenile and I'm far from the only eagles supporter to think that.

Holding onto players, coaches and gameplan for too long has nothing to do with our success.

And just be be really really clear, I've supported the eagles from inception and watched every eagles game since the mid 90s. I turned it off at half time on Saturday. I think that's the first time I have done that. Priddis took me close to tuning out but I think I got through it.
Hardly a surprise that someone who has watched every eagles game since the mid 90's displays such quality sarcasm, acerbity and sanctimony in their responses.
My head is firmly in the sand camp, that if we had all of our players available we'd be in a very different win/loss situation then we currently are, however I do agree that tweaks to our game plan/style need to be made.
Do we need to bring in a new coach? In my opinion no.
Do we need to bring in new assistant coaches to bring in new IP and challenge Simmo, and the players? Without a doubt in my mind. I look at what Yze and Mark Williams have done to the Dees since joining Simon Goodwin as one of many examples. I'm a firm believer that assistant coaches have a life span of 3-5 years at any one club.

My questions to you JezMez are:
  • Who would you recommend as West Coasts next coach?
  • What makes that next coach better the Simmo?
  • When can we expect to win a flag or multiple flags with this coach?
FYI -
I am an Eagles supporter
I have watched the team since inception
I believe I have an intimate knowledge of all the players as well as our history, but depending on your definition of intimate, I may not have as intimate knowledge as you.
I have however unfortunately missed a few games throughout history due to life commitments, but have attended all our GF wins and losses.
 

DickDunn

Premiership Player
Sep 8, 2011
4,095
4,580
AFL Club
West Coast
Nic Nat is obviously pretty low down on our list of concerns but his opponents are clearly finding ways to exploit his lack of running - both Grundy and Stanley were able to run off him and kick goals in recent weeks.

It's probably no coincidence we got our best out of him in a season with shorter quarters. The longer game time and fewer rotations seems to be leaving him spending more time on the bench and lacking impact beyond the ruck contests.

Either way, I hope he can make some adjustments. He's a smart player and usually pretty adept at working over opponents
 

BartBart

Premiership Player
Mar 30, 2008
4,967
4,333
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
That list also includes Allen, Brander, Witherden, Rotham, Redden and Waterman who’d all be more than capable on a wing, all are hard runners and relatively mobile. I don’t think listed height is the issue and a lot of those guys above have actually been in our best players. Our smalls are actually the ones letting us down, everyone below that 188 (that includes all the midfielders) are our worst players currently.

Our small forwards inability to impact the game and run through the middle at stages is a huge L. Willie and Ryan instead of Jones and Langdon and we’d look vastly different with the same overall height. We’d actually be “taller” with Yeo playing instead of O’Neill too but clearly that’d also make us better. Our talls are our best players, I don’t think dropping Waterman for Ainsworth for example is necessarily going to make any difference whatsoever. Vardy, Jones, Langdon, Waterman for a better contested player in Trew or Ah Chee would make more of an impact regardless of height
I agree that not all the "talls" I mention are lumbering and some can easily play as running wingmen but they still aren't the true mids who tackle, put pressure on the opposition mids, get clearances, etc. So we are squeezing extra talls into the team because they would play in many teams.

My point is we are too unbalanced in KPP/outside runners v inside players. Which has been exacerbated by the late addition of the man on mark rule.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
JezMez credibility on the line this week
I wouldn't have thought so.

I've never made any definitive comments about this weekend's game. If we win, it proves nothing. If we lose by less than 8 it proves nothing. Of course if we get flogged by 8+ or we have a quarter where we lie down - it just edges closer to confirming that the player's aren't buying into the game plan.
 

Wedgetailed Westerner

Club Legend
Oct 17, 2018
1,226
2,021
AFL Club
West Coast
We can have a chat without resorting to the "delusional" stuff cheers.

It seems you're basing a lot of this off history, given we "don't have a crystal ball". Get an experienced coach in to give this list a crack at a flag.

So let's have a look at the Premiership winning coaches.

2020: Hardwick - first term
2019: Hardwick - first term
2018: Simpson - first term
2017: Hardwick - first term
2016: Beveridge - first term
2015: Clarkson - first term
2014: Clarkson- first term
2013: Clarkson - first term
2012: Longmire - first term
2011: Scott - first term
2010: Malthouse - third term (had coached flags before)
2009: Thompson - first term
2008: Clarkson - first term
2007: Thompson - first term
2006: Worsfold - first term
2005: Roos - first term
2004: Williams - first term
2003: Matthews - second term (had coached flags before)
2002: Matthews - second term (had coached flags before)
2001: Matthews - second term (had coached flags before)

2000: Sheedy - first term
1999: Pagan - first term
1998: Blight - second term

18 of the past 23 premierships have been won by coaches in their first senior coaching gig.
Four of the past 23 premierships have been won by coaches not in their first senior coaching gig, but with a flag in their previous role.
One of the past 23 premierships has been won by a coach in their second coaching gig, with no premierships on their resume already.

It's a massive gamble, the key thing we disagree with is the "there's nothing to lose" factor. To me there's plenty to lose. Even if there wasn't, judging from history the answer is not "get a coach with experience". There's just no evidence that a Voss/Buckley/Pyke/McKenna type is what fires teams to flags. Coaches tend to wash out of head coaching gigs for a reason.
I find the most interesting thing about this is the 4 year gap between Clarkson's first Premiership and then the run of three. He came under scrutiny I seem to remember, in that 4 yr gap and he changed the game plan that is similar to ours that Simmo learnt. The best coaches still need time to adjust with changes to the game/ structures and other team's ways off playing the side.
 

FKASC

Under Notice
May 28, 2017
16,472
29,738
AFL Club
West Coast
I wouldn't have thought so.

I've never made any definitive comments about this weekend's game. If we win, it proves nothing. If we lose by less than 8 it proves nothing. Of course if we get flogged by 8+ or we have a quarter where we lie down - it just edges closer to confirming that the player's aren't buying into the game plan.
Just kidding mate. It’s part of the meme
 

WestCoast05

Club Legend
Jan 14, 2016
1,808
4,837
AFL Club
West Coast
From another angle, it is possible (although seemingly unlikely at this stage) that the team could turn a corner with the Derby and battle through till the bye with enough wins; then the cavalry and complete leadership arrives and hey-ho we are in unstoppable mode to the finals!
That would make all this "the sky is falling" panic talk, the cheesy meltdowns and piles of folded laundry stacked up with the sacked coaches look ridiculous...just saying.

Pages and pages of forensic dissections and cross examinations and nihilistic angst, then 'bingo' the team turns a corner and off we go, all is forgotten as we jump back on the merry bandwagon!?

We have played 6 games for 3-3, we have another 6 games before the bye and could be 6-6 or 9-3, it's all up in the air, an unknown....?
Footy is exciting, isn't it?
I'm with you, I'm hoping all that happens, and I am quite the optimist.

However people have every right to melt after the St Kilda debacle and the Geelong flogging.
They weren't just losses for legit reasons - they were complete white flag capitulations.

Also melting on BF can be tongue in cheek for the most part, a way to vent, a way to mourn a loss of those who love WCE and are emotionally invested.
 

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ziad

Brownlow Medallist
May 2, 2009
16,913
9,668
Sydney
AFL Club
West Coast
What is wrong?

One thing we can be sure of is that it will never be revealed on social media. Nor in real life will it be a single issue.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
I find the most interesting thing about this is the 4 year gap between Clarkson's first Premiership and then the run of three. He came under scrutiny I seem to remember, in that 4 yr gap and he changed the game plan that is similar to ours that Simmo learnt. The best coaches still need time to adjust with changes to the game/ structures and other team's ways off playing the side.
We have a couple of problems though;

1. Simmo hasn't changed the game plan. I have no issues if he tries something else. If he gets it wrong, I'm fine with that too. But if you're saying it could take up to 4 years to change a game plan - I wouldn't think so. Clarkson transitioned to a ground breaking and complex game plan. We'd be transitioning to an easier gameplan and have seasoned players who could pick it up quickly.

2. How much longer can this group go for? Our forward line has years (Darling, Allen, Ryan, Rioli). Our backline has years (Barrass, Gov, Shepperd, Duggan, Rotham). But the midfield. Shuey is post 30 and has recurring soft tissue injuries. Yeo and Kelly have a few years yet. Sheed's and Gaff are b-graders. Because we've been in the window and traded picks out for Kelly, we don't have much in the cupboard. That makes it hard to extend the window or do a mini rebuild.

We can replace most of the players going out - JK, Cripps, Hurn. But keeping that midfield competitive with top 4 teams is going to be hard.

Then there's the NicNat issue. Playing under duress? Carrying too much weight? Not fit enough? Mentally fatigued?
 

Astro7

Official Halftime Oranges Man
Aug 6, 2017
2,843
3,443
AFL Club
West Coast
I'm with you, I'm hoping all that happens, and I am quite the optimist.

However people have every right to melt after the St Kilda debacle and the Geelong flogging.
They weren't just losses for legit reasons - they were complete white flag capitulations.

Also melting on BF can be tongue in cheek for the most part, a way to vent, a way to mourn a loss of those who love WCE and are emotionally invested.
Absolutely! I was equally dismayed by those performances, but prefer to be the optimist yet acknowledging that form doesn't bode well for some miraculous turnaround - while clinging to a waterlogged raft of hope until the end is official!? Was just blowing the whistle for a break, handing out some oranges during the pause, sticking our heads up over the parapet and having a look around...it's a beautiful day! ;)
 

HoneyBadger35

Hypocrite and Reprobate
Aug 11, 2011
21,250
54,090
AFL Club
West Coast
JezMez out of interest, you say you called Woosha’s demise and have also mentioned that posters on here stuck their head in the sand about it while you tried to tell them otherwise.

Obviously you were on the board earlier than the 2020 account date suggests. Why the new account?
 

Feeling Groovy

Club Legend
Apr 8, 2016
1,352
2,769
Vietnam
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth
Personally, I think talk of sacking Simmo at this stage is off the mark but we definitely need to change the game plan. I think Simmo can do that but is obviously stubborn about it given the success we have had with it and the personnel we have on the list. The amount of injuries we have had to key players also makes the game plan hard to asses but for years I have felt we lack a contested edge (our premiership year being somewhat of an exception) and have lacked the contested players we need to even consider a more contested game plan (noting that whilst mind-set is part of it, certain players are simply better at it than others). I hope that changes with drafting/recruiting and I hope Simmo is there to bring about the change.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
JezMez out of interest, you say you called Woosha’s demise and have also mentioned that posters on here stuck their head in the sand about it while you tried to tell them otherwise.

Obviously you were on the board earlier than the 2020 account date suggests. Why the new account?
I forgot what my old account was. Can't even remember the user name. Opened a new account. Wasn't intending to post on this board so chose Adelaide as my team.

I won't be posting here (Eagles board) for much longer - I've said my piece.

In a perfect world, I'm wrong and I come back here at the end of this season or sometime next season and jump on the train and eat some humble pie. In the meantime, I'm probably going to click off for bit. I'll watch the game provided we aren't get tuned for 100 points.
 

HoneyBadger35

Hypocrite and Reprobate
Aug 11, 2011
21,250
54,090
AFL Club
West Coast
no we will allow a run on. Please read my post properly

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app
My point was every team concedes runs of goals. The Dogs are the best team in football and have had a run of four conceded this year. Melbourne are unbeaten, they’ve given up five straight. Port, five. Tigers seven straight.

All teams give up runs of goals. What happened against the Cats is unacceptable, but everyone gives up runs of four or five every few weeks. That’s footy.
 

flamingEMBERS

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 8, 2011
10,043
8,978
AFL Club
West Coast
3-3 isn't all bad I guess its the way we lost and the injuries to certain players that is frustrating.
- use a pick in the mid season draft. Someone that doesn't play the way we play. A kamikaze inside mid or a run and carry player with pace and a good kick
- Stop playing too tall and effectively one short when a second ruck plays. Sorry Waterman or Brander.
- bring in BBBW and let it known he there to throw his weight around and be a battering ram against the other ruck. Make life easier for Nic
- goes without saying but be campaigners
- give Dom Sheed an absolute rocket. Playing like a privileged campaigner.

End of Season
- have a mini clean out like the end of '17. Lean on the side of cutting as opposed to retaining. Ainsowrth, Hutchings, Ah Chee, Foley, Vardy, Venables (if he isn't up to contact work at seasons end), Johnson, Langdon all in the firing line
- Load up on picks, try and get lower and more picks in the 30.
- attack a 2-3 mature agers dominating state leagues
- look at bringing in some young talent from other clubs
- get an assistant or two from outside WA with no connection to the club
 

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