Review What’s Going Wrong?

[ziad]

I dont follow the club critisism you have listed. But, we won with many averege players (eg Masten missing the goals form 20M etc) I was sitting behind the winning kick form our man Sheed. Well done but you wouldn't want to rely on it and the preceeding string of plays and miss adventure by the Pies to win again.

I think Willies brilliance is a huge miss, I alos thing his suspension on the eve of teh Cats final in 2019 derailed us and we sadly miss the X factor. As I see it we are missing Willie, Shuey, Yoe and Venables as quality players. Hard to blame the coach.But some do.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

With all due respect Tugga the team put the expectations on themselves. They won a flag without NN, Shep and Gaff.
That rightfully based on the level they reached puts them as a premium outfit.
So what has happened since then? Why the fall away? Without 3 very good players we won a flag yet the next two seasons with them back and add Kelly we can’t perform to that level without an excuse.
There is no excuse, they have dropped away for whatever reason. Something is wrong with this group. Very good sides don’t perform up and down as we do. Very good sides fight through adversity, they still win on off days, they don’t get pushed or bullied when things don’t go their way.
Like it or not that is this current group led by our coach. We all know we can play great footy so why not consistently?
I don’t think these are unreasonable questions.

 

[woosha24]

I think Willies brilliance is a huge miss, I alos thing his suspension on the eve of teh Cats final in 2019 derailed us

There's no "thinking" about it - thats exactly what happened. We were mentally behind the 8 ball going into that match. You could see it in the team as soon as they stepped off the bus on gameday.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

There's no "thinking" about it - thats exactly what happened. We were mentally behind the 8 ball going into that match. You could see it in the team as soon as they stepped off the bus on gameday.

Yet played super well for 3 quarters, gave them a start even. Fell away at end. If we got belted right from the outset then I am sure Willie was a huge factor, but that’s not how they played.

 

[Tugga27]

With all due respect Tugga the team put the expectations on themselves. They won a flag without NN, Shep and Gaff.
That rightfully based on the level they reached puts them as a premium outfit.
So what has happened since then? Why the fall away? Without 3 very good players we won a flag yet the next two seasons with them back and add Kelly we can’t perform to that level without an excuse.
There is no excuse, they have dropped away for whatever reason. Something is wrong with this group. Very good sides don’t perform up and down as we do. Very good sides fight through adversity, they still win on off days, they don’t get pushed or bullied when things don’t go their way.
Like it or not that is this current group led by our coach. We all know we can play great footy so why not consistently?
I don’t think these are unreasonable questions.

I agree with you up to a point.
We have definitely under achieved since the 2018 GF.
I think top 4 should've been a minimum finish for us.

I'd like to know why we've under achieved as well.

I just think the knee jerk reactions by quite a few are a bit silly.
Think as a supporter group we're really spoilt.

 

[FKASC]

I agree with you up to a point.
We have definitely under achieved since the 2018 GF.
I think top 4 should've been a minimum finish for us.

I'd like to know why we've under achieved as well.

I just think the knee jerk reactions by quite a few are a bit silly.
Think as a supporter group we're really spoilt.

Yes and no. I think the knee jerk reactions are largely warranted IMO given the nature of that collapse on Saturday. Don’t sugarcoat it, that was a once in a decade choke.

The WB game was a good tustle that could have gone either way. St K game was diabolical and the manner in which it happened justifies questions being asked - especially given we saw first hand the week before that the team is capable of beating anyone.

 

[The Passenger]

LOL when did we last have a high 1st round pick? Speaks volumes about our ability to remain a top 8 team.
This record is broken.

No top ten picks since Andrew Gaff #4 2010 and since the only four in the top 20:

#11 2013 Sheed
#11 2014 Duggan
#13 2016 Venables
#13 2017 Brander

That's the nature of a team that has performed well for a long period of time, and has traded in some guys for high(ish) picks for a flag tilt (one of which has paid off).

2011 GWS pushed everyone down and us out of the top 20.
2012 Wellingham for #17
2015 Redden for #17
2018 we picked swapped out of round 1
2019 and 2020 for Kelly

Even without those trades the only top 10 pick we would have had was 2013 when we downgraded from 6 to 11.

That drafting and trading is well above par for the competition I would suggest. A couple of busts (which every club has), and the jury is out on whether Kelly will hit that value - so far he is just short, but there's definitely room to pay off.

We'd also have close to the best second round and lower hit rate in the competition over this time - Darling #26, Lycett #29, McGovern R#44, Barrass #43, Cole #36, Nelson #51, Rotham #37, Rioli #52, Waterman #77, Allen #21, Ryan #26.

I don't think you can find too much fault with our drafting - or the coaching development of some mid range selection has been good. Take your pick.

Trading has been solid. Not included above is Yeo for #28 and Sinclair (Rookie draft) getting parlayed into Jetta.

I think the only thing keeping us from properly contending each year over the past 7 or 8 has been a little bit of a lack of balanced in that we don't have quite enough midfield runners, and also we just need to show a little bit more mongrel and prick when things aren't going our way. Just a bit more resolve to turn things around mid game.

 

[Cuzz09]

Might be easier and quicker for a "whats going right?" thread

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[Brave Sir Robin]

Bad games are bad games, I get that. I try not to overreact to a bad loss.

But it's hard to make the case that this is just a bad loss. This is historic.

 

[CursoryMercenary]

Apart from the Allen year our drafting and trading has been atrious in recent seasons.

 

[MKMatty]

Bad games are bad games, I get that. I try not to overreact to a bad loss.

But it's hard to make the case that this is just a bad loss. This is historic.

It's very easy to stick the boot in when things go wrong. We've been fortunate as supporters of a club that's been consistently in the mix season after season.

I'm at an absolute loss after today. No idea what it means, I just want something to come out of today's results.

 

[ConcreteWaters]

We're a 4-8 side missing 6-7 very high quality players, with our top 2 midfielders- our weakest area, gone.
Get to 5-5, reload with soldiers back

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

It's very easy to stick the boot in when things go wrong. We've been fortunate as supporters of a club that's been consistently in the mix season after season.

I'm at an absolute loss after today. No idea what it means, I just want something to come out of today's results.

The weird thing for me is that it doesn't tell me that much. I still don't feel like Geelong are a much better side than us. Home ground advantage shouldn't be worth 100 points yet I think if they had to come to us we would've won.

I think Simmo will deflect any criticism of the performance with reference to the guys that we have available. That's fair to a point. But like I pointed out in the gameday thread, this Geelong side aint s**t on 2008, and tbh if you played this injury depleted WC side against our 2008 team I think even they would win by at least 10 goals. So that begs the question - what the hell happened? I said before that I try not to overreact - but there absolutely has to be big consequences from this game.

 

[MKMatty]

The weird thing for me is that it doesn't tell me that much. I still don't feel like Geelong are a much better side than us. Home ground advantage shouldn't be worth 100 points yet I think if they had to come to us we would've won.

I think Simmo will deflect any criticism of the performance with reference to the guys that we have available. That's fair to a point. But like I pointed out in the gameday thread, this Geelong side aint sh*t on 2008, and tbh if you played this injury depleted WC side against our 2008 team I think even they would win by at least 10 goals. So that begs the question - what the hell happened? I said before that I try not to overreact - but there absolutely has to be big consequences from this game.

I've said all year that this season hangs on our form after the bye when Yeo, Shuey, Hurn etc are back. Our current objective should be limiting the damage between then and now. I didn't expect us to win today, but to be demolished in the fashion we have is demoralising.

 

[Westend]

The coach

 

[Bacchus]

The weird thing for me is that it doesn't tell me that much. I still don't feel like Geelong are a much better side than us. Home ground advantage shouldn't be worth 100 points yet I think if they had to come to us we would've won.

I think Simmo will deflect any criticism of the performance with reference to the guys that we have available. That's fair to a point. But like I pointed out in the gameday thread, this Geelong side aint sh*t on 2008, and tbh if you played this injury depleted WC side against our 2008 team I think even they would win by at least 10 goals. So that begs the question - what the hell happened? I said before that I try not to overreact - but there absolutely has to be big consequences from this game.

Got to play with guts though, that wasn’t there today.

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

Got to play with guts though, that wasn’t there today.

I don't know what that means though. It's a bit like Simmo saying 'intensity wasn't there' like he loved to do between 2015-17. A few guys fluctuating in performance from week to week I'll buy, but not the whole team. One of the noticeable things about this season is that we haven't really had that many notably good/bad players from week to week. And to be specific, I mean the midfield: they're either all good or all bad. That fluctuation between good and bad leads me to think the problems we have are either gameplan or structure related. That's on the coaches. I accept I may be wrong there, but that's the conclusion I'm drawing right now. We need answers from Simmo and his coaching team this week.

 

[West Coast 06]

Ignoring the score line. Go back to the preseason predictions and most had us at 3-3 at this point of the the season.

That was before we knew about injuries to Shuey, Hurn, Ryan. We knew about Yeo and Rioli.

The question is, can we string some wins together from here? Can we win away while we wait for the cavlry?

 

[Cuzz09]

in 2019 we were 3-3 after a similar (although not as horrid) loss to Geelong.

We then won our next 5

If we are 8-3 then I think we can safely say weve navigated rough waters but this year has a not very good vibe about it with injuries to guns and the leftovers not really up to standard.

Get JK back and maybe 1 or 2 over the next month and you never know.

But its not looking great

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[Bacchus]

I don't know what that means though. It's a bit like Simmo saying 'intensity wasn't there' like he loved to do between 2015-17. A few guys fluctuating in performance from week to week I'll buy, but not the whole team. One of the noticeable things about this season is that we haven't really had that many notably good/bad players from week to week. And to be specific, I mean the midfield: they're either all good or all bad. That fluctuation between good and bad leads me to think the problems we have are either gameplan or structure related. That's on the coaches. I accept I may be wrong there, but that's the conclusion I'm drawing right now. We need answers from Simmo and his coaching team this week.

It means it exactly what it says - go in hard and get the ball, run hard to defend, stick the tackles- these things weren’t there today. I agree with your point about coaching too. With a shocking performance like this you really need to examine what you are doing as a coach and coaching group.

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

It means it exactly what it says - go in hard and get the ball, run hard to defend, stick the tackles- these things weren’t there today. I agree with your point about coaching too. With a shocking performance like this you really need to examine what you are doing as a coach and coaching group.

I don't doubt the criticism of the players. The question for me is that why have we had this issue since... 2013 or 2014? We either look great as a collective or diabolical as a collective.

You could be tempted to say that timeline aligns perfectly with when Simmo turned up. I'm not convinced. But I'm even less convinced that our players fluctuate between good and bad with such perfect synchronicity.

My thoughts are, based on what we've seen about underdelivering sides who have gone on to dominate the competition in the modern era, that we have the players, that Simmo is our guy, but that the layer underneath him are not up to the job. I'm not an insider. I'll wear that if I'm wrong. But we've shown too much with what we have and delivered very little with our current lineup of coaches underneath Simmo that I'm very suspicious of what we're getting for the money there.

 

[Cuzz09]

It does line up with Simmo starting.

Killer edge.

No more flat tracking.

I reckon get a few decent assistant coaches behind him again as backup.

Never heard of half the guys weve got.



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[Eastcoasteagle]

Teams are playing us man on man, to stop our kick mark game. Defender looks up and looks for an option and everyone is manned up. I'm shocked more sides haven't tried this. This is why we keep kicking it side to side in defence as no options fwd.

Also because of NNs dominance in the centre bounce teams aren't trying to win the ball. They're following our players in, Sheed will take the ball and his opponent on his hammer simply wraps him up causing the ball to spill and the oppo then turn the ball their way.
Teams are now nullifying our strengths, and we're doing nothing to try stop it.

 

[JezMez]

The coach

This.

Simpson has had his time. He's been great (any coach who brings the club a flag is), but it's time for change.

This is the high level problem;

Won the flag in 2018
Were flag favourites for periods in 19 and 20 but landed on the 6th and 8th
The window is closing. This is potentially our last shot and we came in with the same game plan as 19 and 20. That's unforgiveable in a flag window.
Losses like St Kilda and today are fine when you're rebuilding, just not in a flag window.

So where does that leave us now;

We're going to go and flat-track bully a heap of weak sides at home. We might even beat a few contenders. We could eve finish 4, 5 or 6, and have some false hope we can win the flag. But we can't - because every team knows if they concentrate on the contested ball count, we will fold like 1980's teen movie preppy cardigan.

Where does that leave us going forward?

Rebuilding. Once you're in rebuild stage - you need a new coach. Once a coach has run his race - had all his draft picks, recruitments, and had a tilt - once that goes past the window - new coach, fresh ideas, new stock in, old stock out etc.




If I had every vote on the board - Simmo wouldn't last the weekend. I'd be looking at Pyke, Voss, or Mitchell and would be trying to win a flag this year or next.

 

[JezMez]

in 2019 we were 3-3 after a similar (although not as horrid) loss to Geelong.

We then won our next 5

If we are 8-3 then I think we can safely say weve navigated rough waters but this year has a not very good vibe about it with injuries to guns and the leftovers not really up to standard.

Get JK back and maybe 1 or 2 over the next month and you never know.

But its not looking great

That's probably what will happen - but it doesn't solve our problem. It will just be false hope. We won't last 2 finals with how we play.