Review What’s Going Wrong?

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HoneyBadger35

Hypocrite and Reprobate
Aug 11, 2011
21,250
54,091
AFL Club
West Coast
We're the We$t Coa$t Eagle$$$ - we should not be struggling to poach quality coaches.
We need to start throwing our weight around as a destination club - and THE destination club outside of Melbourne.

Admittedly the new club song doesn't help at all though...
Doesn’t help when we can’t spend our money to the extent we’d like because the AFL caps it so the poor clubs don’t go bust.
 

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geelong_crazy26

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 13, 2006
20,895
12,172
melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
geelong
There's a few clubs who want him. I can only talk for myself, but just because I want a change doesn't mean I don't rate him. I just think his time with this group has come to a natural end. Ditto Buckley at Collingwood, can coach but both he and Collingwood need a change up. And ditto Clarkson. If there's anyone who could do a Sheedy it's him but if I were the Hawks, I'd want a fresh start.
I hear this at times from supporters and i feel its just an easy copout to blame the coach when things arent moving smooth. A good coach is a good coach, you dont need any replacement for a good coach, just stick with them during the years rebuilding down the ladder.. West coast isnt even in that bucket.

He literally is the second most recent coach to coach a premiership, i think that hardly calls for a “fresh start” period anyway.

Only reason for my posting was i was very shocked to see criticism of such a good coach like that. The loss hardly has anything to do with him, these days happen even to good coaches, because its not all their control
 

Grahame

Senior List
Aug 19, 2008
280
516
Melbourne
AFL Club
West Coast
FYI: the result against the Cats was the second heaviest loss for this season. Let's give that some perspective. Contender PtA beat the easily shittest team NM by 128 points. The second biggest loss was contender Cats beating contender(???) WCE by 97 points.

It's that bad.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
I hear this at times from supporters and i feel its just an easy copout to blame the coach when things arent moving smooth. A good coach is a good coach, you dont need any replacement for a good coach, just stick with them during the years rebuilding down the ladder.. West coast isnt even in that bucket.

He literally is the second most recent coach to coach a premiership, i think that hardly calls for a “fresh start” period anyway.

Only reason for my posting was i was very shocked to see criticism of such a good coach like that. The loss hardly has anything to do with him, these days happen even to good coaches, because its not all their control
Nah.

The flag window is still open (or more to the point, we don't yet have confirmation it has shut). For whatever reason, Simmo's message is not getting through. I suspect it's got stale and after years of playing a "coralling game style" the players just can't contest at the same level and consistency against teams who are fresh and focus on this a lot more.

So why would you keep a coach who is unlikely to be able to turn the ship around before the window closes? There's an opportunity right now and it needs to be taken.

John Worsfold was a "good coach". He won the 2006 flag. But soon after the wheels fell off and he kept playing his old firm who were no longer performing (sound familiar). People like me had to sit around for a few seasons before the club worked out it wasn't going to work. I don't see a point in sitting through that again - when that flag window shuts, the malaise enters in, and a few seasons later we twig a change is needed.

Cut the circuit now. Get an experienced coach who doesn't need an apprenticeship to have a red hot go. If it fails, so be it and rebuild. Right now we are going through the motions of a slow death.

ps those recent two losses have everything to do with him. It's indicative to a downward slide over the last two seasons.
 

Rowan18

Premiership Player
Feb 20, 2018
3,363
6,289
AFL Club
West Coast
Can we get Cripps?

I'm happy to offload Gaff and Gov.
Sorry mate, but you don't have a clue. Sack the coach and bring in a banged up Cripps who hasn't had a good year since 2019. Oh, also trade two solid players for him.

Gaff and Gov sh*t me with their performances at times, but getting rid of them is not the answer.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
FYI: the result against the Cats was the second heaviest loss for this season. Let's give that some perspective. Contender PtA beat the easily shittest team NM by 128 points. The second biggest loss was contender Cats beating contender(???) WCE by 97 points.

It's that bad.
It's not even the size of the loss for me. I have no issues with that loss during a rebuild or when the flag window shuts.

For me it's about persisting with a strategy that isn't working. It's a good strategy. It won us a flag. But it's no longer working. And we're in a flag window and after two seasons of evidence, Simmo didn't change it up.

If he had changed it up and we came up short - no problem, the window is shut, let's work out how big a reno we have to do on this list.
 

BrotherDodge

Team Captain
Jun 7, 2015
524
2,016
AFL Club
West Coast
FYI: the result against the Cats was the second heaviest loss for this season. Let's give that some perspective. Contender PtA beat the easily shittest team NM by 128 points. The second biggest loss was contender Cats beating contender(???) WCE by 97 points.

It's that bad.
The most damning stat is we had 130 fewer possessions than Geelong, and still managed to lose the tackle count. When we're bad this year, we're Gold Coast-in-Rd22 bad.
 

Barrybran

Premium Platinum
Jun 18, 2016
34,280
60,451
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Perth Scorchers
Sorry mate, but you don't have a clue. Sack the coach and bring in a banged up Cripps who hasn't had a good year since 2019. Oh, also trade two solid players for him.

Gaff and Gov sh*t me with their performances at times, but getting rid of them is not the answer.
Yeah that was a bizarre suggestion
 

WCE_phil

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2009
9,705
8,744
perth
AFL Club
West Coast
We're the We$t Coa$t Eagle$$$ - we should not be struggling to poach quality coaches.
We need to start throwing our weight around as a destination club - and THE destination club outside of Melbourne.

Admittedly the new club song doesn't help at all though...
The problem is the soft cap on football department spending. We can't get great assistants or support staff from interstate because we can't pay them enough to make it worth them moving.

I've said it in another thread but clubs that have been able to spend big in the past are the hardest hit as they relatively are hit the hardest. Just look at who we lost coach and staff wise due to covid and the new soft cap. There's much bigger money in other industries with lower stress, lower expectations and far greater job security.

Most successful players who are coming through the coaching system and to be honest any player who has a ten year career walks out with 10 years in a highly professional environment, dealing with high stress, people skills and at least 1 university degree. The players don't just play football. The whole system is about ongoing education whilst being a player to set them up in life once their careers are finished.
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
Sorry mate, but you don't have a clue. Sack the coach and bring in a banged up Cripps who hasn't had a good year since 2019. Oh, also trade two solid players for him.

Gaff and Gov sh*t me with their performances at times, but getting rid of them is not the answer.
As to who has a clue, let's wait and see.

Cripps is 26. Still got 5 years in the game. Not as good as he was 2 seasons ago, but still a contested beast. When we talk contested beast; Dusty, Fyfe, Danger, Petracca, then probably Cripps. De Goey dropped off more that Cripps.

What do we need right now? Contested ball winners. Shuey has suspect hammies, Yeo should come back. Cripps would be very handy.

Contested beast don't grow on trees. I can name 6 off the top of my head, maybe Steele is getting into that space. There just happens to be one who is a WA boy, is out of contract at the end of the year and hasn't re-signed, and is someone out of form so his price has dropped.

Gaff is a one-pace pony. He's handy and he's an asset when everything is working for us. But he has value. Sheed can play his role.

Gov is a prima-donna and we can still get a high price for him.


Darling, Allen, Ryan, Rioli
Barrass, Sheppard, Duggan
NicNat, Shuey, Yeo, Cripps, Kelly, Redden, Sheed

Need a KPP defender.

I've seen teams get floggings like that on the way up, but when you've past the peak and yet have losses like that - that fat lady is warming up.
 

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JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
Who do you suggest?
Voss, Pyke, Clarkson, Buckley.....

But it doesn't matter - we don't have a crystal ball so don't know if any of them can win us a flag, if at all. The only thing we can be sure about is for whatever reason, the plyers are not responding to Simmo's game plan and this has been an issue for 2 seasons now.

History tells us that not many coaches with more than 5 years in the game can turn that around.
 
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HoneyBadger35

Hypocrite and Reprobate
Aug 11, 2011
21,250
54,091
AFL Club
West Coast
Voss, Pike, Clarkson, Buckley.....

But it doesn't matter - we don't have a crystal ball so don't know if any of them can win us a flag, if at all. The only thing we can be sure about is for whatever reason, the plyers are not responding to Simmo's game plan and this has been an issue for 2 seasons now.

History tells us that not many coaches with more than 5 years in the game can turn that around.
History tells us coaches with more than five years in the game rarely turn it around, so the solution is Buckley (nine seasons, no flags), Voss (five seasons, no flags) and Pyke (four seasons, no flags, presided over the greatest mental capitulation of a sporting program in football history).

Getting Alistair Clarkson is a great shout and has been for every club for the past 10 years, but it’s far easier said than done, and isn’t exactly changing the gameplan mold given he’s essentially the one who designed ours in the first place.
 

RanaNaved

All Australian
Feb 15, 2019
784
1,379
AFL Club
West Coast
Voss, Pyke, Clarkson, Buckley.....

But it doesn't matter - we don't have a crystal ball so don't know if any of them can win us a flag, if at all. The only thing we can be sure about is for whatever reason, the plyers are not responding to Simmo's game plan and this has been an issue for 2 seasons now.

History tells us that not many coaches with more than 5 years in the game can turn that around.
Mark Neeld and Matthew Primus too
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
History tells us coaches with more than five years in the game rarely turn it around, so the solution is Buckley (nine seasons, no flags), Voss (five seasons, no flags) and Pyke (four seasons, no flags, presided over the greatest mental capitulation of a sporting program in football history).

Getting Alistair Clarkson is a great shout and has been for every club for the past 10 years, but it’s far easier said than done, and isn’t exactly changing the gameplan mold given he’s essentially the one who designed ours in the first place.
You didn't interpret my post correctly.

When a coach has been on the job for 5+ years (i.e. coaching the same group) and they have losses like the ones we have, it's very rare they turn it around. A new coach (read: a coach with a group they have recently started coaching) can turn it around because his side are still learning the system. But when they've learnt it for 5 years, it gets stale and it's very hard to convince a group to learn something they think they know.

As for Clarkson - i put him as an option but I wouldn't go for him for the reasons you mentioned. I don't believe Pike and Voss would make the same mistakes (although we're asking Voss to do something a little bit similar). We'd be handing them a list; "this list might still have 2 seasons in it, best forward line in the AFL, backline is A-grade, midfield needs some tinkering. See if you can get a flag out of them but you need to strike this season or next".
 

JezMez

Team Captain
Suspended
Sep 15, 2020
457
1,484
AFL Club
Adelaide
We obvs need Sumich to storm into the change rooms, knock over a tray of Powerade and tell our midfield they're even bigger softcocks than Trew.
Wonder what his public speaking rate is? Can we fit an hour of his time into the cap? I wouldn't be expecting any changes, just want someone to tell those campaigning campaigners they're a bunch of softcocks.
 
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HoneyBadger35

Hypocrite and Reprobate
Aug 11, 2011
21,250
54,091
AFL Club
West Coast
You didn't interpret my post correctly.

When a coach has been on the job for 5+ years (i.e. coaching the same group) and they have losses like the ones we have, it's very rare they turn it around. A new coach (read: a coach with a group they have recently started coaching) can turn it around because his side are still learning the system. But when they've learnt it for 5 years, it gets stale and it's very hard to convince a group to learn something they think they know.

As for Clarkson - i put him as an option but I would go for him for the reasons you mentioned. I don't believe Pike and Voss would make the same mistakes (although we're asking Voss to do something a little bit similar). We'd be handing them a list; "this list might still have 2 seasons in it, best forward line in the AFL, backline is A-grade, midfield needs some tinkering. See if you can get a flag out of them but you need to strike this season or next".
I don’t agree with that but fair enough. I think if the window is as tight as you think it is, eg the list has two seasons or so left, you’re wasting at least half a season implementing the gameplan.

Sack Simmo today, bring in Voss/Pyke/whoever, this season is basically a write off as they transition into the new style. Would need to hit everything perfect for them to win enough games whilst learning on the job to finish in a good ladder position, and by then you’re hoping the game style is up and running for September. Impossibly huge ask I think, to turn a 3-3 team into a top four contender whilst asking them to pivot styles on the job.

Over the offseason you’d say it all gets implemented well and they’re ready to roll for Round 1. So you’re banking on a fresh style being enough to kick this group into a premiership next year, then we’re aged out of contention it would seem.

Massive gamble to me that I can’t really agree with.
 

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