- Feb 24, 2013
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Aint tribal provincialism grand.
It's true....Scots are too busy punching on with each other to notice any one else....Much less another race.
Society/Culture What are Australian values?
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Aint tribal provincialism grand.
It's true....Scots are too busy punching on with each other to notice any one else....Much less another race.
Dan Baker
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- #152
Aint tribal provincialism grand.
It's true....Scots are too busy punching on with each other to notice any one else....Much less another race.
Is whisky a fight in a bottle? The English were forever fighting each other. Alcohol must have fuelled some of their dislike for each other.
When you look at dialect and phonetics. It is like little countries inside the country.
The fact is it is illegal because it is a very useful plant. Alcohol is of absolute minimal use/benefit (ie. In small doses it marginally improves physical and social wellbeing).
The medicinal, clothing and other fabric, and industrial uses of cannabis are the reasons it's illegal. Anti-tumour activity especially.
Several pharmaceutical companies in the US have poured money into the anti-cannabis legalisation movement.
Says it all really.
On Australian values, one that pisses me off the most is the "don't rock the boat" notion that pervades many familes and workplaces, as well as out in public.
"Don't discuss politics because no one agrees...heaven forbid we actually have a calm discussion about how the selected leaders are ******* us all over by allowing our democracy to be contorted into a US-style corporatocracy".
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00Stinger
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Laid back attitude and being able to take the piss out of each other and ourselves. Something that the left has taken offense to
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I'm going to use the term "referendum" in the same way it was used at the time. More accurately, it was a plebiscite. But aside from that:
The conscription referendums weren't "soundly defeated" at all. They were both extremely close and represented a rough 50-50 division of opinion.
It's worthy of note that in a voter turnout of only 2-2.5 million, any percentage expression of the margin is going to be more significant than it would be if the voter turnout were more. The second referendum represented only a small shift toward the "no" vote in practical terms. A quick perusal of the Australian demographic of 1916 and 1917 would show you how a shift or a mere hundred thousand people or so represents a significant change in percentages.
National Archives information gives the actual numbers as being
1916: 1,087,557 in favour and 1,160,033 against
1917: 1,015,159 in favour and 1,181,747 against
It should also be noted that the main difference was in less people voting "yes" as opposed to more voting "no". A 60 thousand decrease in the yes vote, and only 20,000 increase in the no vote. Those are not large numbers, but when expressed as a percentage appear to be a greater variation than they would otherwise.
To explain this, it's necessary to go far deeper than simply assuming casualty lists and the reality of the cost of war hitting home were the sole or dominant reason.
Politics was as muddy a game in 1916-1917 as it's ever been, and its very arrogant to assume the politicians of the day were any less aware of the effects of phrasing and obfuscation as they are now.
The question asked in 1916 was not the same one asked in 1917. As follows:
1916:
"Are you in favour of the Government having, in this grave emergency, the same compulsory powers over citizens in regard to requiring their military service, for the term of this War, outside the Commonwealth, as it now has in regard to military service within the Commonwealth?"
1917:
"Are you in favour of the proposal of the Commonwealth Government for reinforcing the Commonwealth Forces overseas?"
Perhaps that awareness wasn't acted upon in as sophisticated a manner as it might be in more modern times, but there can be little doubt that the change in the way the question was worded had an effect as well. One could mount a fairly convincing argument that the wording of the question itself in 1916 contributed toward the vote being in the negative.
Another point is that a vote of "no" in a conscription referendum does not necessarily represent a lack of belief in the war itself. It only represents a belief that people should not be forced to go, and nothing more. A person in Australia in 1916 might have been fully in support of the war effort but did not want to go as far as condoning conscription.
I'm also a little unsure what you mean by "along secular lines". Religious belief did play a significant role in the debate. Both the Catholic and Protestant churches (being the two most prominent at the time) had a lot to say about it, and a large amount of influence over their congregations.
And lastly, it's also simplistic to assume that the numbers of men signing up for war service dropping was again only the result of realities hitting home.
The entire population of Australia in 1916-1917 was only around 5 million. Most of those who were of an age and willing had already gone. The numbers of eligible young men coming of age who also wanted to volunteer simply weren't sufficient to sustain or reinforce the enlistment volume Australia had in the earlier years.
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Ok I did that but I didn't go in deep. Just read it's meaning in a nutshell. I see it is linked to calvanism. I was taken by that piece of art work. Severe. Puritanical.
I thought it had a broader use where it became a way to describe what is the australian value of a fair days work for a fair days wage. Good honest work for an honest wage. It works. It's understanding that it is only by honest work that a society thrives, is productive creative, full bellied, things run smoothly. Australians are still sane and still have some instinct of it is by cooperation that we thrive. It is maintaining some sense of the hive mind. We're social beings so it is re blah and so on.
Those values of hard work/ action, self discipline and frugality/ non attachment to material things are also buddhist ways hey.
No need to rub it in procrastinator.
- Feb 24, 2013
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- #159
They live in a harsh environment. They were protecting them and theirs and land. It's a rugged country. Weather beaten. Lashed. Takes strong men and women. I happen to know as far as stereotypical types go, the scots are great weather men, they are great scientists and inventors. They got the bagpipes which stir the heart and that sword dancing and skirts. Red heads. Love them.
I love to point out to scots that their great inventors and discoverers usually do so after leaving Scotland.
Visit as an English person and it is relentless in conversation etc. Challenge them and its all 'good fun'
They learn racism with their mothers milk. and easily switch it to other races from the English. I only realised it recently because its so 'normal'
Victorians can probably relate it to SA or WA but more deep seated. SA and WA have a chip about Victorians and you don't give a stuff
Maybe it's because the collective australian consciousness is still resisting class distinction. Anyone who thinks they're better than anyone else needs to be smacked down.
Power Raid
We Exist To Win Premierships
perversely this "australian consciousness" creates a divide which creates a class system.
- Feb 24, 2013
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What a load of hoary old bollocks.
....That chip on ya shoulder is being projected writ large there sunshine.Anyways re the drunkards. I blame the irish. That is what they're known for. Writing poetry and going down to davey jones locker. But hey they got the fiddle and the jig a jig so got to love them. But they're drunkards.
I think Robbo illustrates Australian values. Poisondrippingflipflopper. if he says hes 'concernd' for you behind your back start worrying cos its poison dressed up as concern
An procrastinator you probably don't relate to Scottish racism with a chip on each shoulder cos its not that far removed from the good old aussie version
Did I mention Aussies don't take criticism well?
An procrastinator you probably don't relate to Scottish racism with a chip on each shoulder cos its not that far removed from the good old aussie version
Did I mention Aussies don't take criticism well?
I was talking about an economic/ social class system. Upper, middle/ working and lower/ poor. Now I suppose we've got another class. The non working/ dependent on the state class. At least we don't have a caste system. Lols.
I thought that was only the american democratic youth.
I think you'll find that the Union movement was responsible for articulating those values.
Power Raid
We Exist To Win Premierships
I have a caste system at my home this month and it is bizarre. Servants have come over with my wife's family from Singapore.
On one hand the servants keep and save 100% of their wage and live a lifestyle that most Australians could never afford (travel the world and eat at the top restaurants). They also get a job for life, which like in 1960 Australia, carries value.
In reality, I'm glad wages in Indo, China and the Philippines are rising at such a rate, that this will be a thing of the past.
Yeah I felt myself going red as i typed it. The intrinsic value of the worker in society in invaluable. Or else what? Slaves or robots?
Whisper it - KKK roots are Scottish
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/whisper-it-kkk-roots-are-scottish-1-653986
The irish brought the nancy boys to australia.
BTW my scots comment was about Dawn Fraser (Scottish name) telling Nick Kyrigos (greek name) to go back to where his father came from. It was tongue in cheek applying the same logic to Fraser that she was applying to Kyrigos
