What are the chances of Footy overtaking league in NSW and Queensland?

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NoobPie

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NRL is no.1 code in part of country with over 50% of population.

But in the other 50% of the nation it hardly exists whereas the AFL has penetrated the northern states way better and are growing their base year on year!
If RL is such a great game how come they don't have another team in Melbourne a city of over 5 Million and a team in Adelaide and Perth and play six matches in Tassie?
How many players has RL recruited from Melbourne,Adelaide,Tasmania and Perth esp Melbourne where the have had a very high profile successful team for over 20 years and one that was flogged to death by News corp when they owned the Storm?

And of course the AFL is significantly more popular / dominant in it's heartland states and territories than the NRL is in its.

The google trends demonstrates that, since the restart, the AFL has had more than half again, more interest than the NRL

1599975758278.png



The relativities in each of the states and territories are (AFL first)

SA: 95 -5
TAS: 93 -7
WA: 93 - 7
Vic: 92 - 8
NT: 74 - 26
ACT: 43 -57
QLD: 37 - 63
NSW: 23 - 77
 

BringBackTorps

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Bill Stephen, former great Fitzroy player, captain, & coach, passed away 24.8.20, aged 92. R.I.P.

As this Thread is mainly about Queensland AF, & as many Brisbane etc. fans may not know the history of their magnificent Club song, I am including this here.
Its author, Bill Stephen (whom everyone called "a great gentleman") selected the French tune, & wrote many/most of the lyrics, for the Fitzroy song.
Its creation happened on a Club 3 day train trip to Perth with the Fitzroy team in 1952- "We must have sung it 4000 times". The train had a piano in the Dining Carriage.



Some expert VFL/AFL commentators have said the original Fitzroy tune & lyrics - with the constant drum beat (sadly, omitted from the Brisbane FC version), & slightly more up-tempo- is the best of all the former & current VFL/AFL songs.

At the Junction Oval home ground then, wins were cherished. Fitzroy was an "unfashionable" battling, mainly working class Club.
Much of the Fitzroy crowd, standing in front of the Stands & sitting in them, in the 70's & 80's, after a noted win, would sometimes sing loudly, en masse, the whole song at the end of the game (often in unison with the recorded song on the loudspeakers).
It seemed the old, part wooden stands were shaking! Very moving!
This verse was particularly belted out very loudly by the crowd "The Club we hold so dear"; also the "Fitzroy Fitzroy" part.

Fitzroy was a real football Club.

More details on the history of this legendary song.












EDIT:

This original Fitzroy song is still played over the loudspeakers at the start (& end of winning) Fitzroy FC VAFA snr matches, at the Brunswick St Oval, Fitzroy.

At some Fitzroy Junior FC (also one of Melbourne's biggest JFC's, c.900+ players, including Auskick) matches, persons from the crowd sometimes play the tune with trumpets, during & after the match.
 
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BringBackTorps

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1. FoxSports Z. Rayson 7.9

Rayson said that NRL CEO A. Abdo wants to

. "...win the battle for the NRL's traditional heartland in rural NSW & Qld"
(but apart from sthn. NSW, which is AF heartland, AF is not now a big rural threat- AF is tiny in rural areas. AF is only now a big threat in a few regional towns eg Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, & Cairns only).

."ensure the game fights off the increasing influence of of rival codes in the NRL's heartland".


Rayson also wrote

"Abdo said there was a need to '...better connect with fans & communities, particularly with regional NSW & Qld.' areas. He (Abdo) said the game's body was 'structurally challenged' ". (?)


No specific mention of the "battle" occuring in cities of Brisbane, Sydney, & the ACT, where there is strong growth of AF; only "rural ", "regional" areas of NSW & Qld. are mentioned!?






2. Daily Mail Australia M. Colman: Heading: "Rugby League... Is On Track To Lose The Bitter War Of The Codes". 29.5.20

Re the permanent NRL HQ cuts of $50m pa
"Mike Colman argues the obvious solution is to cut the NRL staff, which brings with it a major problem. Of the NRL's 400 employees, 200 are Development Officers".

Former Brisbane Bronco S. Renouf, who has worked for 20 years in jnr RL said

"...if you lose those Development Officers, you're in big trouble. The AFL is already a long way in front in that area".

Re GR AF development in Qld., Renouf said

"We'd go to every govt. school in the state, & wherever we went..., the AFL had already been there".

"...if the NRL has to pull money from Development in the regional areas of NSW & Qld. Junior rugby league is already struggling out there, & the AFL is so strong...ten years down the track, the NRL could be in big trouble".

 
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werdna78

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And of course the AFL is significantly more popular / dominant in it's heartland states and territories than the NRL is in its.

The google trends demonstrates that, since the restart, the AFL has had more than half again, more interest than the NRL

View attachment 960410


The relativities in each of the states and territories are (AFL first)

SA: 95 -5
TAS: 93 -7
WA: 93 - 7
Vic: 92 - 8
NT: 74 - 26
ACT: 43 -57
QLD: 37 - 63
NSW: 23 - 77
I used the same graph and did a comparison against a league and super rugby as well, across the world.

Surprisingly India and Germany are high up in AFL searches. Must be a lot of ex-pats.

1600217113329.png
 

Gigantor

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There are some strange results there.
Hard to believe that the US, India and Germany would have more searches on the AFL than Australia.
There can't be that many ex-pats out there to achieve such a result.
 

BobbyMorri

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I used the same graph and did a comparison against a league and super rugby as well, across the world.

Surprisingly India and Germany are high up in AFL searches. Must be a lot of ex-pats.

View attachment 962584
means bugger all.

type rugby in instead for a more fair comparison. after all, most Australians wouldn't know the difference between league and union(let alone the leagues), let alone people unfamiliar with the game overseas

and before you say that you are comparing leagues, the AFL is both a league and the name of the sport. it is the governing body. its either AFL, Aussie rules football or rugby to most Americans after all.
 

Johnny Bananas

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I used the same graph and did a comparison against a league and super rugby as well, across the world.

Surprisingly India and Germany are high up in AFL searches. Must be a lot of ex-pats.

View attachment 962584
I don't believe those results for a second. South Africa and New Zealand should both be green. They both play Super Rugby too and care a lot more about rugby than Australia does.
 

TWLS

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I don't believe those results for a second. South Africa and New Zealand should both be green. They both play Super Rugby too and care a lot more about rugby than Australia does.
You are spot on about the Rugby searches - Rugby is king in NZ. Rugby and Soccer in South Africa.
However a comment on India - Very highly unlikely the AFL searches are expats but there is a grassroots AR program going on which I monitor but still in early stages and has presences in about 10 Indian States.
 

NoobPie

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I don't believe those results for a second. South Africa and New Zealand should both be green. They both play Super Rugby too and care a lot more about rugby than Australia does.
The problem is you can't search for "Super Rugby" as a "sports league" so putting it in as a search term would underestimate interest. I suspect super rugby could push past the AFL globally if you could make that comparison.

As a proxy. here is a comparison between Collingwood and the Crusaders.

1600232564703.png


 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Ive lived in Mackay, Gladstone, Noosa and Brisbane in the past.

Anywhere from Capricornia North, with the exception of Cairns, the vast majority of people have a true and utter passionate dislike of Aussie Rules football. I think barring expats from interstate and the Cairns enclave (which is still slightly more Rugby League orientated) North QLD will never be prized away from Rugby League.

The Gold and Sunshine Coasts I would say are the best bet in the state of QLD where Aussie Rules may one day overtake Rugby League, you could even argue footy is pretty much on par with League on the Gold Coast going in terms of the number of fans of the premier league clubs (AFL and NRL, and not strictly the Suns and Titans, but all AFL and NRL clubs).

NSW I have no Idea about though, never lived there or even visited for a long enough time to comment.
I agree with you with regards to north Qld. I lived in Cairns for a couple of years and it had a pretty big presence and following up there but go 400km down the road to Townsville, with the Nth Qld Cowboys and they hate it. Go another 400km to Mackay same thing and other 400km to Rockhamption and same again. I spent a year in Toowoomba in 1999 and they had a pretty decent sized junior AR comp going. I don't know how that translated into senior participation but my mate was coaching an u/16 team and I would help him out on game days and there were plenty about.

Interestingly there used to be a handful of PNG locals that would fifo into Cairns to play. When I first arrived in Cairns I was thinking of having a run (too frigging hot and humid) I went and had a look at a preseason game and in those days I reckon 80% of the cars parked at the ground at Manunda had Vic number plates on them. Lots of pokies money to lure people up there.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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It's a fair point, but if that happened i don't think the benifets would linger for long, IMO basketball is the biggest threat to Aussie Rules long term, maybe not in the way of numbers (as most juniors play both anyway) but basketball go hard after the gifted kids, they have much better programs than the AFL.
Remember when the Melbourne Tigers or Giants and SE Magic or whoever where filling Rod Laver Arena on a balmy night with the roof open and then within about 3 years they were struggling to fill netball stadiums?

How many of Australia's current players in the NBA were recruited from the NBL and how many were recruited into the College system and then to the NBA through there? Same with soccer, I've been hearing since the 70s that soccer is going to take over, hasn't ever come close to happening. How many Australian players have been recruited directly from the A-League straight into any of the top Euro leagues?
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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I can only peak for my kids, who both played basketball as 10 - 15 year olds, and both just drifted out of the sport due to lack of interest. Neither even follows the sport now. Its quite a repetitive sport if I am honest, and it has a lot of trouble holding juniors through the 15 - 18 age range, more so than football or soccer even.
Yep, I followed the NBL and NBA pretty closely in the early 80s, my high school PE teacher was coach of the Geelong SuperCats while he was teaching us. We'd have practice at school and Cal Bruton and James Crawford would just walk in to see coach and join in with us, my sister was engaged to a SuperCat. I played at school level and when I was a bit older on Sunday nights for extra fitness for footy, plus it was fun to play. If I still played I think it would still be fun but I wouldn't waste my energy pushing the button on a remote to switch a game on. I find it boring and as you say, repetitive.
 

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Gigantor

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Remember when the Melbourne Tigers or Giants and SE Magic or whoever where filling Rod Laver Arena on a balmy night with the roof open and then within about 3 years they were struggling to fill netball stadiums?

How many of Australia's current players in the NBA were recruited from the NBL and how many were recruited into the College system and then to the NBA through there? Same with soccer, I've been hearing since the 70s that soccer is going to take over, hasn't ever come close to happening. How many Australian players have been recruited directly from the A-League straight into any of the top Euro leagues?
Those of us of a certain age have been hearing about soccer since the 70s, as you say, and then had to hear the same thing about basketball in the 90s.
We've heard it all, many, many times.
Unfortunately, we have to let the newer generation have their delusions, they can't be told.
As we've seen many times in the past, even in a good season where soccer or basketball is going through a period of peak popularity, as far as the professional game goes, it never, ever makes a dent on the AFL.
 

Johnny Bananas

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No specific mention of the "battle" occuring in cities of Brisbane, Sydney, & the ACT, where there is strong growth of AF; only "rural ", "regional" areas of NSW & Qld. are mentioned!?
It's well-known that the rural population is declining and rapidly aging, as younger people move to the cities for work. I believe you'd also pointed out in TV ratings threads that the NRLs audience skews older, while in the northern states the AFLs audience skews younger. This makes it especially odd that the NRL CEO mentioned rural areas; aside from the population argument, the NRL seems to be doubling down on its audience of older people rather than focusing on winning the younger demographics. If that's the case, you wonder if there'll be some sort of reckoning a generation from now.
 

BringBackTorps

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It's well-known that the rural population is declining and rapidly aging, as younger people move to the cities for work. I believe you'd also pointed out in TV ratings threads that the NRLs audience skews older, while in the northern states the AFLs audience skews younger. This makes it especially odd that the NRL CEO mentioned rural areas; aside from the population argument, the NRL seems to be doubling down on its audience of older people rather than focusing on winning the younger demographics. If that's the case, you wonder if there'll be some sort of reckoning a generation from now.
It is inexplicable to me why NRL CEO A. Abdo on 7.9 mentions (in my link in post#229), re the NRL's GR RL concerns, only "rural" & "regional " areas.

Apart from the regional towns Albury, Wagga, Broken Hill (admittedly AF heartland), Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast , & Cairns (where GR AF is strong), all other regional towns in NSW & Qld. are RL strongholds- with very small GR AF & AFL support.
Excluding sthn. NSW (AF heartland), rural areas in NSW & Qld are also RL strongholds- also very small support for GR AF & AFL.

Why did Abdo not mention the cities of Sydney, Brisbane, & Canberra- where GR AF is becoming a genuine threat to GR RL?

I disagree with your views on regional ageing & declining population demographics- Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, & Cairns are growing in nos.- & , AFAIK, are not noticeably ageing.

On reflection, there is a possibility that Abdo's concerns, when he specifically mentioned "rural" & "regional" areas, related to elite development & NRL recruitment- AFAIK, still very fertile recruiting areas for the NRL.

P. Rothfield, P. Gould, P. Kent & other MSM RL experts in the last c. 7 years have expressed concerns that "Rugby League is dying in the bush", or similar wording.

FoxSports S. Brunston 18.11.15

Brunston said that former Souths player J. Williams, & former Campbelltown Mayor P. Lake, have said, respectively, that GR RL is in trouble in the bush; & "Rugby League is dying in the Macarthur region".



Daily Mercury M. Coleahan 20.8.18

A series of linked articles on the decline of country RL in Qld. Further comments that the NRL is inflating its male regd. contact RL nos. by including touch & tag players etc. in total RL official nos.



SBS 25.11.16

Former ARLC Chairman J. Grant, & former NRL CEO T. Greenberg, have "great concerns" about declining male contact RL player nos.
Grant wanted to establish, urgently, a special $100m GR RL rescue fund- but was thwarted by the NRL clubs.



Daily Telegraph 29.4.20

(Google search summary)
"Help save bush footy...check out the state of play in your region...Concerns Newcastle male league numbers are declining...".

(Behind a paywall. Cam anyone open, & post here please?)


Newcastle Herald 22.10.17

Ex-NSW League Champion Brian Burke says "rugby league is dying in the bush".



Western Advocate B. Palmer 17.2.20

Frustrated NSW Central West veteran RL referee T. Sayhoun says there is a big shortage of referees in the bush; & also said

"Rugby League is dying in the country, that could be through the violence or... (abusive fans etc.- my words)".



coxinall.com.au J. Tolmie 2017
(Consultancy specialising in agribusiness).

Tolmie quoted The Daily Telegraph P. Rothfield 5.7.16, when Rothfield wrote

"Country rugby league is in fact dying a slow death".

Tolmie said "many rugby league clubs in rural towns are dying".



It should be noted that many GR AF clubs in rural & regional areas of Vic., WA, SA, & Tas. have died/merged/gone "into recess" etc. for many decades- & many are still under pressure to survive. This is often due to many younger people moving to larger towns nearby, or their capital city, in search of employment, tertiary study, mechanisation reducing rural farming jobs etc.; & more people needing to work weekends; or having large mortgages- & fearing injury could result in difficulties servicing the mortgage etc.

The situation for heartland rural & regional GR AF, however, is certainly not as severe as it is for regional & rural GR RL in NWS & Qld.- where some say RL is in crisis, or facing an existential threat.
This will NOT result in GR AF directly replacing these struggling RL clubs- as AF does not have the cultural resonance of RL in these areas.
 
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Johnny Bananas

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I disagree with your views on regional ageing & declining population demographics- Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, & Cairns are growing in nos.- & , AFAIK, are not noticeably ageing.
I said nothing at all about regional aging, only rural aging. None of the places you mentioned are rural areas. I'd also say the Gold Coast barely counts as regional at this point. It's a city of 600 000 and doesn't really have any undeveloped stretches separating it from Brisbane anymore.
 

BringBackTorps

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I said nothing at all about regional aging, only rural aging. None of the places you mentioned are rural areas. I'd also say the Gold Coast barely counts as regional at this point. It's a city of 600 000 and doesn't really have any undeveloped stretches separating it from Brisbane anymore.
1. Some areas, with small towns, can be described as rural or regional.

Some mining areas are also rural, but have growing populations, & are not noticeably ageing.
My understanding is that many areas in the far north coast of NSW can be considered rural, but it has a growing population- & not noticeably ageing.



2. Daily Telegraph P. Kent 13.6.15

Kent said

"Bush football is slowly dying...There are strong AFL competitions where that did not exist 20 years ago in many bush towns The AFL continues to grow & eat up rugby league territory. When will we realise the game needs to fight back"?



Daily Telegraph P. Rothfield 5.7.16

This is the full link where. P. Rothfield said

"Country Rugby League is in fact dying a slow death".

(Behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here?).



3. WWOS D. Weidler 6.8.20

P. Gould is being encouraged to apply for a part time player development position with the NRL Warriors.

"Gould has recently expressed his passion for helping NZ & the Pacific Islands harnessing their potential".


It may be that, due to the significant decline in male GR contact RL nos. in Australia, the NRL is, increasingly, regarding its elite player salvation will be achieved by recruiting more NZ (both Pasifika & European background) & Pacific Islands' based players.



4. P. V'landys has recently said he hopes to recruit P. Gould into the NRL HQ.

7news.com 27.7.20

"V'landys is hoping to lure Gould for Special Projects, chiefly Pathways & Participation...".






EDIT:

2GB B. Fordham 28.7.20

P. V'landys said

"Phil is one of the best football brains going around...You can't argue his knowledge of the game...If he... (is) able to increase participation, we should use him" ie employ P. Gould in NRL HQ.


It appears that, like his predecessors, P. V'landys also has strong concerns re the long term significant decline in GR male contact RL nos.; & the gloomy implications.

The NRL HQ has been spending c. $40m pa on GR "Development" in Australia- will this be cut drastically as part of the mooted permanent $50m pa HQ cuts ($183m- $133m pa)? And will NRL HQ experiment with a much cheaper "Gould Model" in far more effective & propitious NZ?
 
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Les Malone

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RL is really not the issue at GR level in NSW and QLD.

The real issue is Shaun Smith and head trauma

Its gotta be dealt with and that means changing the rules around tackling and opening the game up.

How do we do that ?

My views are very clear, lower I/C and stop highly charged refreshed players from being around the ball like tackling machines, stopping gang tackling of any type and being far stricter on head contact.

My impressions of current football is it far tougher on players at all levels than generations ago, less dirty play, but more packs, and players harder around the ball and tackling has ramped up to unbelievable levels.
 

Canberra Pear

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Footy is definitely doing well against league in the Canberra region (which is inside NSW, so it counts for this thread).

Even without a full-time local team and the media saturation that follows, footy's participation is showing up league.

Since the post-Covid restart, there are 31 men's footy teams competing in the Canberra region (not including another seven Rising Star teams which I think are u19).

In comparison, there are 12 men’s rugby league teams in the Canberra region, with only half of those actually in the ACT.

Both leagues have had some casualties (hopefully just temporary) from the pandemic, but it shows the depth in the respective leagues, too.

Imagine how well footy could do here with full-time AFL and AFLW teams!
 

jatz14

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RL is really not the issue at GR level in NSW and QLD.

The real issue is Shaun Smith and head trauma

Its gotta be dealt with and that means changing the rules around tackling and opening the game up.

How do we do that ?

My views are very clear, lower I/C and stop highly charged refreshed players from being around the ball like tackling machines, stopping gang tackling of any type and being far stricter on head contact.

My impressions of current football is it far tougher on players at all levels than generations ago, less dirty play, but more packs, and players harder around the ball and tackling has ramped up to unbelievable levels.
I can't recall a concussion that has occurred as a consequence of gang tackling. For head clashes I would think it safer (for heads, maybe not knees).

You cannot sling a player tackled by multiple people, and the tackles tend not to be high impact.

High impact tackles tend to be open play tackles, and sling tackles are from solitary tacklers.

Saw on insiders that Union did a study and found in their game, it was usually the tackler that had concussion, not the tackled, so they are going to start penalising players that tackle in a way that puts themselves in danger.

I think AFL needs a similar study (which they may have), to find out what actually causes concussion.

I think in AFL, it will be a greater variety of incidental incidents that are hard to stop, head clashes, inadvertent contact, poor technique.

I doubt the high tackle numbers have much to do with it personally.

I think it will be hard to stop.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

BringBackTorps

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Footy is definitely doing well against league in the Canberra region (which is inside NSW, so it counts for this thread).

Even without a full-time local team and the media saturation that follows, footy's participation is showing up league.

Since the post-Covid restart, there are 31 men's footy teams competing in the Canberra region (not including another seven Rising Star teams which I think are u19).

In comparison, there are 12 men’s rugby league teams in the Canberra region, with only half of those actually in the ACT.

Both leagues have had some casualties (hopefully just temporary) from the pandemic, but it shows the depth in the respective leagues, too.

Imagine how well footy could do here with full-time AFL and AFLW teams!
1. Can you provide approximate. no of :-

Club jnr contact RL (ie not tag/touch) U6-U18 players in the Canberra region (inc. Queanbeyan area etc.) in 2020?
Club snr contact RL player nos. in the region in 2020?


2. For jnr & snr contact RL players in the region, has there been a big reduction in 2020, cf 2019? And 2019 cf 2017? Why?

(My understanding is that, in Sydney GR snr comps., many semi-pro RL players decided not to play in their delayed 2020 season, because, allegedly, they would not be paid, or paid far less. The no. of GR snr RL Clubs have greatly plummetted in Sydney in 2020- they had to incorporate RL clubs from Newcastle/Hunter, & Wollongong regions, to have enough Clubs to run a 2020 comp.; but Sydney snr GR AF held up well).

Any detailed information is appreciated.


3. Do you know why the proposed Snowy Mountains Football League never fully proceeded?

 
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Canberra Pear

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1. Can you provide approximate. no of :-

Club jnr contact RL (ie not tag/touch) U6-U18 players in the Canberra region (inc. Queanbeyan area etc.) in 2020?
Club snr contact RL player nos. in the region in 2020?


2. For jnr & snr contact RL players in the region, has there been a big reduction in 2020, cf 2019? And 2019 cf 2017? Why?

(My understanding is that, in Sydney GR snr comps., many semi-pro RL players decided not to play in their delayed 2020 season, because, allegedly, they would not be paid, or paid far less. The no. of GR snr RL Clubs have greatly plummetted in Sydney in 2020- they had to incorporate RL clubs from Newcastle/Hunter, & Wollongong regions, to have enough Clubs to run a 2020 comp.; but Sydney snr GR AF held up well).

Any detailed information is appreciated.


3. Do you know why the proposed Snowy Mountains Football League never fully proceeded?

Really not sure on the data sorry. I'd only got that info from their websites.

I hadn't heard of the Snowy JFL, do you have any more info on it?

It looks like they're trying to replicate what they've done with the Lake George JFL north of Canberra. Lake George has better footy infrastructure already in place, with senior teams at Murrumbateman, Yass and Goulburn, so I think it was easier to get off the ground. The Snowy Mountains has a lower population, and only half a senior team, with the Southern Cats splitting their base between Cooma and southern Canberra, so I'm guessing it was harder getting enough interest.
 

BringBackTorps

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RL is really not the issue at GR level in NSW and QLD.

The real issue is Shaun Smith and head trauma

Its gotta be dealt with and that means changing the rules around tackling and opening the game up.
I agree rule changes are necessary to reduce the record rate of collision injuries (according to Prof. K.Norton ie tackle, bump, push & colliding) & record no. of tackles occuring in the AFL. In particular, heavy head knocks must be minimised (& much more severe suspensions against the player who caused, unreasonably, with their dangerous action, the head injury eg minimum 4 weeks for a 1st offence).



It looks like they're trying to replicate what they've done with the Lake George JFL north of Canberra. Lake George has better footy infrastructure already in place, with senior teams at Murrumbateman, Yass and Goulburn, so I think it was easier to get off the ground. The Snowy Mountains has a lower population, a
Lake George JFL is a very innovative comp.
 
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Les Malone

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Really not sure on the data sorry. I'd only got that info from their websites.

I hadn't heard of the Snowy JFL, do you have any more info on it?

It looks like they're trying to replicate what they've done with the Lake George JFL north of Canberra. Lake George has better footy infrastructure already in place, with senior teams at Murrumbateman, Yass and Goulburn, so I think it was easier to get off the ground. The Snowy Mountains has a lower population, and only half a senior team, with the Southern Cats splitting their base between Cooma and southern Canberra, so I'm guessing it was harder getting enough interest.
impressed that Murrumbateman can put a team on the park, there was a thread at some stage about the codes in Canberra and number of teams across Rugby, RL and AF, i think Rugby believe it or not had the most teams at senior level, but its hard as some comps have more teams from the surrounding areas that are not really in the ACT.

All in all it was reasonably even with RL coming in third and the least in the ACT itself, i am off for a few days but may dig it up when i get back, it was from a couple of years ago.
 

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