What are the chances of Footy overtaking league in NSW and Queensland?

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Bill Stephen, former great Fitzroy player, captain, & coach, passed away 24.8.20, aged 92. R.I.P.

As this Thread is mainly about Queensland AF, & as many Brisbane etc. fans may not know the history of their magnificent Club song, I am including this here.
Its author, Bill Stephen (whom everyone called "a great gentleman") selected the French tune, & wrote many/most of the lyrics, for the Fitzroy song.
Its creation happened on a Club 3 day train trip to Perth with the Fitzroy team in 1952- "We must have sung it 4000 times". The train had a piano in the Dining Carriage.



Some expert VFL/AFL commentators have said the original Fitzroy tune & lyrics - with the constant drum beat (sadly, omitted from the Brisbane FC version), & slightly more up-tempo- is the best of all the former & current VFL/AFL songs.

At the Junction Oval home ground then, wins were cherished. Fitzroy was an "unfashionable" battling, mainly working class Club.
Much of the Fitzroy crowd, standing in front of the Stands & sitting in them, in the 70's & 80's, after a noted win, would sometimes sing loudly, en masse, the whole song at the end of the game (often in unison with the recorded song on the loudspeakers).
It seemed the old, part wooden stands were shaking! Very moving!
This verse was particularly belted out very loudly by the crowd "The Club we hold so dear"; also the "Fitzroy Fitzroy" part.

Fitzroy was a real football Club.

More details on the history of this legendary song.












EDIT:

This original Fitzroy song is still played over the loudspeakers at the start (& end of winning) Fitzroy FC VAFA snr matches, at the Brunswick St Oval, Fitzroy.

At some Fitzroy Junior FC (also one of Melbourne's biggest JFC's, c.900+ players, including Auskick) matches, persons from the crowd sometimes play the tune with trumpets, during & after the match.
Bill Stephen was interviewed recently on SEN. He spoke of how the song came to be. Link to the interview is in the article below

 

Our Game

Club Legend
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Playing so many matches in QLD and with a lot of finals being there will help in promotion of the game.

If the Brisbane Lions were to make the GF that would be the icing on the cake considering that NO QLD RL teams are in their finals!
 

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Canberra Pear

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impressed that Murrumbateman can put a team on the park, there was a thread at some stage about the codes in Canberra and number of teams across Rugby, RL and AF, i think Rugby believe it or not had the most teams at senior level, but its hard as some comps have more teams from the surrounding areas that are not really in the ACT.

All in all it was reasonably even with RL coming in third and the least in the ACT itself, i am off for a few days but may dig it up when i get back, it was from a couple of years ago.
Murrumbateman is pretty new, but they look to be doing well. It helps that they're still close to suburbia. I think they might have a few Belconnen players. Gungahlin doesn't have any div 3 or 4 side, so I imagine there'd also be a few from Gungahlin that wanted a more casual kick than the Jets could offer.

I think numbers between AR and union would be pretty similar. They definitely both outshine league (particularly in the territory). The Brumbies website shows nine divisions in their zone, but that includes teams from Deniliquin to the coast.
 

BringBackTorps

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abc.net.au R. Hinds 4.9

Hinds said

1. "Code Wars are not being fought in packed stadiums...but in school playgrounds & local parks...The AFL's plan is merely to gain a sustainable niche in Qld. by developing the game from the grassroots up...Those who play the game are many more times likely to watch, attend, buy merchandise & otherwise support the game".

"...(It is crucial for- my words, & emphases) Development Officers spending years finding grassroots volunteers to run programs...The Code War winners will be those sports which hold their nerve when cutting budgets, & continue to invest in development & growth".

Will the NRL (which has stated it will permanently reduce its HQ employees- which include Development Officers- & related costs by $50m pa) cut its $40m pa expenditure on community Development?
A NSWRL official said in 2017 that GR RL development & growth was being adversely affected by a shortage of GR volunteers.



abc.net.au B. Kleyn 2.9

"It is understood Qld.'s Bid to host the Grand Final included a pitch to invest in more legacy projects to build the game's profile across the state".

Re the Grand Final, the Qld. govt., apparently, has not provided publicly the specific details of the funding etc. it is providing directly to the AFL, & for Qld. GR AF.



Herald Sun

The Qld. govt. has promised a series of legacy projects which the AFL would have been challenged to acquire. They included better ground access for the AFL, infrastructure, & more junior competitions.

(Behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here?)








Re GR RL Significant Shortage Of Volunteers In Qld. & NSW

EDIT 1:

abc.net.au S. Turnbull 20.2.17

"About 80% of the (RL) Clubs that had responded so far reported their biggest challenge as attracting & keeping volunteers".




EDIT 2: qt.com.au M. Colahan 26.8.18

Re the demise of the whole jnr RL competition in the Central Burnett region "A lack of volunteers helping out to get a junior competition up & running is a big contributing factor".




EDIT 3:

nationaltribune.com 20.6.20

"NRL players, coaches, officials, & administrators have today launched their largest ever national recruitment drive for volunteers with their local rugby league community club".

 
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General Giant

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Teams that play sports in rectangular stadiums
I was not aware of an NRL, A-League or Super Rugby side based out of Cairns?

Don’t get me wrong it’s great they have a nice stadium out there but this is for what? 1 game a year that’ll be sold to them like the Stadium in Mudgee and other such regional markets?
 

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Pippen94

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I was not aware of an NRL, A-League or Super Rugby side based out of Cairns?

Don’t get me wrong it’s great they have a nice stadium out there but this is for what? 1 game a year that’ll be sold to them like the Stadium in Mudgee and other such regional markets?
Qld cup teams are main teams for those regional cities but Cairns hosts Cowboys games. NRL trials, potential a league teams certainly with promotion & relegation in works. Kangaroos, Socceroos, Matildas, NRL 7's, Rugby 7's tour stop, venue for rugby world cup men's & women's, concerts. 16k for boxing match in Townsville during last month....
 

BringBackTorps

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1. NRL HQ will be cutting its staff (which include Development Officers- part of the $40m pa spent on Development by NRL HQ) by 25%.
(The AFL recently announced AFL HQ would cut its staff levels by 20%; & on 11.6.20 stated its new, renegotiated -Force Majeure- Rights' deal had been reduced by c. 12-13%. The AFL privately told Club Presidents the NRL's new Rights' deal had double this reduction, c. 25%).

Of NRL HQ's c. 400 current staff, c. 200 are Development Officers- how many will be cut? And the effects on GR contact RL nos.?

The lazy MSM reporting of "a $130m loss this year" for the NRL HQ is, AFAIK, a loss of revenues only, cf 2019 revenues (ie not an actual, & much more damaging, net loss suffered by the NRL, showing on the P & L Statements).




2. Daily Telegraph D. Ritchie 19.5.17

Due to the long term, significant decline in GR male contact RL regd. nos, Ritchie writes

"It is understood the NSWRL has been considering a plan where junior registration costs could be free statewide, at a cost $3m".
NSW NRL star L. Daley, concerned about t male decline, also supports abolishing jnr contact RL registration costs.
(Whilst some RL clubs waive jnr RL registration costs for all players, no universal policy was adopted).

(This article is not paywalled- but it also has a link to a DT article written by P. Rothfield a week earlier: re "the mass exodus of junior rugby league players". It is behind a paywall-can anyone open, & post here please).



3. Female GR contact RL is having significant growth- helping to offset the big reduction in male contact RL. They often play in smaller teams, of c. 9 on-field players.
This will help greatly in GR RL clubs getting more Council & govt. funding, more sponsors etc; & will improve the culture of GR Clubs.

abc.net.au J. Huntsdale 29.2.20

Huntsdale said

"Rugby League administrators say interest has exploded in girls playing the sport now, on the back of the launch of the NRLW 2 years ago".

"In the Illawarra.....since 2018, when girls aged 10-12 playing rugby league was the code's biggest growth area...". (This is almost certainly referring to non-contact female Tag players)

When female "Rugby League" player nos. are mentioned, the author often includes female non-contact players (tag & touch) with female contact RL players.
 
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Pippen94

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1. NRL HQ will be cutting its staff (which include Development Officers- part of the $40m pa spent on Development by NRL HQ) by 25%.
(The AFL recently announced AFL HQ would cut its staff levels by 20%; & on 11.6.20 stated its new, renegotiated -Force Majeure- Rights' deal had been reduced by c. 12-13%. The AFL privately told Club Presidents the NRL's new Rights' deal had double this reduction, c. 25%).

Of NRL HQ's c. 400 current staff, c. 200 are Development Officers- how many will be cut?

The lazy MSM reporting of "a $130m loss this year" for the NRL HQ is, AFAIK, a loss of revenues only, cf 2019 revenues (ie not an actual, & much more damaging, net loss suffered by the NRL, showing on the P & L Statements).




2. Daily Telegraph D. Ritchie 19.5.17

Due to the long term, significant decline in GR male contact RL regd. nos, Ritchie writes

"It is understood the NSWRL has been considering a plan where junior registration costs could be free statewide, at a cost $3m".
NSW NRL star L. Daley, concerned about t male decline, also supports abolishing jnr contact RL registration costs.

(This article is not paywalled- but it also has a link to a DT article written by P. Rothfield a week earlier: re "the mass exodus of junior rugby league players". It is behind a paywall-can anyone open, & post here please).



3. Female GR contact RL is having significant growth- helping to offset the big reduction in male contact RL. They often play in smaller teams, of c. 9 on-field players.
This will help greatly in GR RL clubs getting more Council & govt. funding, more sponsors etc; & will improve the culture of GR Clubs.

abc.net.au J. Huntsdale 29.2.20

"Rugby League administrators say interest has exploded in girls playing the sport now, on the back of the launch of the NRLW 2 years ago".

None of these articles you post are current
 

Les Malone

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Footy is definitely doing well against league in the Canberra region (which is inside NSW, so it counts for this thread).

Even without a full-time local team and the media saturation that follows, footy's participation is showing up league.

Since the post-Covid restart, there are 31 men's footy teams competing in the Canberra region (not including another seven Rising Star teams which I think are u19).

In comparison, there are 12 men’s rugby league teams in the Canberra region, with only half of those actually in the ACT.

Both leagues have had some casualties (hopefully just temporary) from the pandemic, but it shows the depth in the respective leagues, too.

Imagine how well footy could do here with full-time AFL and AFLW teams!
might be some info here that interests you


numbers of teams RL, AF and where they are from 4 or so years ago
 

Canberra Pear

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might be some info here that interests you


numbers of teams RL, AF and where they are from 4 or so years ago
Thanks for that. It looks like the numbers have been pretty stable for the three codes between 2016 and what the 2020 line up of teams was going to be pre-Covid.
 

BringBackTorps

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Thanks for that. It looks like the numbers have been pretty stable[No] for the three codes between 2016 and what the 2020 line up of teams was going to be pre-Covid.
The Canberra Region Rugby League comp. jnr & snr male contact nos. are in decline; as are RU Club male contact nos. also.
AF jnr nos. (for both Club & school competitions) have risen significantly since GWS was created in 2012.

The 2020 Canberra Region RL, First & Reserve Grade, has 8 senior teams (some clubs with 2 teams). G.Tooke Shield also has 4 teams. Total of only 12!
There are a further 4 snr female contact RL teams.

The CRRL (inc. Queanbeyan, Goulburn etc. areas in NSW) in 2020 only has 6 U17 teams! (No U18-U21 teams!). This is extraordinary, & almost shocking. There are also few school contact RL regular comp. teams.

This is a dire situation for male contact RL in the next decade, in a region of 500K+. And despite the region having its own, very wealthy NRL team (& won 3 GF's), in a long established GR RL area (which was formerly very strong for GR RL- particularly the affiliated Queanbeyan, Goulburn, Yass areas of NSW).

There are only, in 2020 in the CRRL:-

. 18 U13 teams
. 12 U14 teams
. 16 U15 (M-10!, & F-6) teams
. 8 U16 teams!
. 5 U18 teams (all F)

Note the presence of non-contact tag teams included amongst the tackle RL competitions.

U6-older mini jnr RL are also non-tackle: but they are part of the traditional jnr contact RL structure, so must be included.

Female contact RL (where teams often have only c. 9 players) is having significant growth in the CCRL.


According to BF poster Garlic Muncher (below link, post#94) in 2016, there were, in the ACT & surrounding areas of Queanbeyan, Goulburn, Yass etc., a total of:-

. 27 snr male RL teams (including G. Tooke Shield).
. 38 snr male RU teams.
. 33 snr male AF teams.


At post #86 in the above link, poster Schmidt wrote that, in about 2006, there were c. 15-20 additional snr male RU teams ie c. 53-57, cf 2016 (unsubstantiated, probably includes RU Colts also).
 
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BringBackTorps

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1. The Roar "Expert" M. Friend said

"AFL Canberra figures from earlier this year (ie 2016 official regd. nos. - my words) show that junior participation rates in Canberra are at their highest level for 30 years, with 125 junior teams involved in the competition".


The quoted 125 junior teams above does not include kids aged 5 y.o- 8 y.o. in Club Auskick, where AF is having its strongest growth.
Furthermore, jnr GR nos. in the ACT comp. have continued to grow strongly from 2017, almost certainly at record highs now.

In 2017, the CDRL, in First Grade only, had 9 snr teams.







2. EDIT:

The Australian 2019 said

"The boom of Aussie Rules participation in rugby league heartland has led to AFL NSW boss to take on a new role".

S. Murray, CEO of AFNSW/ACT until early 2019, has been promoted to AFL HQ in Melbourne, as National Game Development Manager.

Whilst this article in The Australian mentions that GR AF has become a "mainstream sport" specifically in Sydney's "northern beaches & north west" (ie no mention of the ACT), Murray's promotion has undoubtedly been due to the rise, also, of GR AF in the ACT (& other areas inside, & outside, of Sydney).

(Behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here please).
 
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Walshawk

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With all this cash being thrown around for stadiums/rebuilding the economy, the AFL needs to partner up with cities like Rockhampton by offering to play a game each season if the stadium is oval. Get cricket involved. You could add a 23rd neutral game each season and have the nine extra games spread across NSW and QLD. A game each year in nine of Cairns, Townsville, Mackay, Rockhampton, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast, Newcastle, Central Coast, Woolongong, Albury and Wagga would be fantastic for the game.
 

BringBackTorps

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1. abc.net R. Hinds 22.9.20

Hinds said, due to covid-19

"The NRL expects to lose $150m this season (in NRL HQ revenue probably- & not a much more damaging actual net loss. My words)...".

"Meanwhile, competition leaders Penrith revealed last month it would bleed $12m ...revenue (not an actual net loss- my words) during a season. Presumably, others have fared even worse".

"Grass roots programs will suffer, as will potential growth areas such as women's rugby league".



On Footy Classified on 23.9, C. Wilson said (re Mc Lachlan in the AFL Competition C'tee & Presidents' meeting on 21.9) that

"Mc Lachlan painted a relatively rosy picture in terms of losses the game has suffered, $100m in total. Far less than anticipated. AFL $40m. Clubs $60m".
2021 finances are too difficult to predict now.
(Unclear to me if "$100m losses" are loss of revenue, or actual net losses).


(Go to 39 seconds -1 min. 42 seconds)





2. abc.net D. Mark 26.9

Mark says, re the massive economic damage caused to pro-sports by covid-19

"Of all the Australian sports, the AFL is best placed to ride out the storm".


Mark also said that the:-

. AFL has had a "up to 400m" revenue fall. He obviously did not have the latest information, that the AFL HQ losses were $40m, & for the 18 Clubs $60m ie total $100m for 2020. See E. Mc Guire's comments on 23.9 to C. Wilson, in point 1 above- it was a total loss of $100m.

. 28.5.20 Nine new Rights' deal/less $ for the NRL "....cost the League $80m [?] over the course of this season, & remaining 2 years of this contract...Fox, it's safe to assume the savings were considerable (ie Fox also reduced the amounts considerably on the new, post 28.5.20 deal with the NRL- my words & emphases)...".

(Mark's comments are confusing here. We know that Nine reported to the ASX on 28.5.20 that its new deal with the NRL, for the 3 years 2020-2022, would deliver Nine a saving of $119m- which included some reduced Production costs).

. In 2020, NRL's "... loss of TV money, as well as sponsorships, gate takings & emergency payments to Clubs add up to as much as $150m...".

. predicament for RA & the FFA is far more dire financially, cf the AFL & NRL.






3.
With all this cash being thrown around for stadiums/rebuilding the economy, the AFL needs to partner up with cities like Rockhampton by offering to play a game each season if the stadium is oval. Get cricket involved. You could add a 23rd neutral game each season and have the nine extra games spread across NSW and QLD. A game each year in nine of Cairns, Townsville, Mackay, Rockhampton, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast, Newcastle, Central Coast, Woolongong, Albury and Wagga would be fantastic for the game.
The Federal LNP govt. has already approved, in principle, significant Federal infrastructure for stadia development in Tas., when it becomes the 19th team (IMO, probably c. 2025).

I doubt greatly the AFL clubs would approve a 23 Round.
The 2 parasitical clubs, HFC & NMFC, will vacate Tas. soon, & they (& some other Melbourne Clubs) will be keen to take "less glamorous" games to NSW & Qld. etc. currently, c.14 transfers pa.

I support your view that the AFL & CA should seek local Council & govt funding for new, large (minimum20K?) oval stadia in Newcastle & Wollongong- but only there. The AFL should make promises of scheduling 6 games pa (3 at each), for 20 years, if these new oval stadia were built; & CA promise holding first class cricket matches at these new stadia (2 pa? at each), for 20 years. Inducements must be offered- to placate taxpayers/politically "viability".

I don't support your other locations for new oval stadia because:-

. Rockhampton has only a very small following for the AFL, & GR AF there. Ditto Mackay, Central Coast, & Toowoomba.

. the Cairns & Townsville oval stadia are already adequate.

. Sunshine Coast already has a strong AFL & GR AF following; & is not too far from the Gabba- thus is not a priority in the next 10 years.
Ditto Wagga & Albury, re Manuka.

Also, the AFL & CA will, IMO, probably be seeking a major upgrade of the Gabba ($150m+ in todays $) in the next decade- this is a greater priority for AF, than your suggested Qld. locations. The AFL can't be too "greedy"!

With the predicted $280b Fed. govt. debt (Jobkeeper etc.) looming due to covid-19, govts. may be reluctant to spend large funds on stadia that are rarely used.
 
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Pippen94

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1. abc.net R. Hinds 22.9.20

Hinds said, due to covid-19

"The NRL expects to lose $150m this season (in NRL HQ revenue probably- & not a much more damaging actual net loss. My words)...".

"Meanwhile, competition leaders Penrith revealed last month it would bleed $12m ...revenue (not an actual net loss- my words) during a season. Presumably, others have fared even worse".

"Grass roots programs will suffer, as will potential growth areas such as women's rugby league".



On Footy Classified on 23.9, C. Wilson said (in the AFL Competition C'tee & Presidents' meeting on 21.9) that

"Mc Lachlan painted a relatively rosy picture in terms of losses the game has suffered, $100m in total. Far less than anticipated. AFL $40m. Clubs $60m".
2021 finances are too difficult to predict now.
(Unclear to me if "$100m losses" are loss of revenue, or actual net losses).


(Go to 39 seconds -60 seconds)





2. abc.net D. Mark 26.9

Mark says, re the massive economic damage caused to pro-sports by covid-19

"Of all the Australian sports, the AFL is best placed to ride out the storm".


Mark also said that the:-

. AFL has had a "up to 400m" revenue fall. He obviously did not have the latest information, that the AFL HQ revenue losses were $40m, & for the 18 Clubs $60m ie total $100m for 2020. See E. Mc Guire's comments on 23.9 to C. Wilson, in point 1 above- it was a total revenue fall of $100m.

. new 29.5.20 Nine Rights' deal with NRL "....cost the League $80m [?] over the course of this season, & remaining 2 years of this contract...Fox, it's safe to assume the savings were considerable (ie Fox also reduced the amounts considerably on the new, post 28.5.20 deal with the NRL- my words & emphases)...".

(Mark's comments are confusing here. We know that Nine reported to the ASX on 28.5.20 that its new deal with the NRL, for the 3 years 2020-2022, would deliver Nine a saving of $119m- which included reduced Production costs).

. "... loss of TV money, as well as sponsorships, gate takings & emergency payments to Clubs add up to as much as $150m...".

. predicament for RA & the FFA is far more dire, cf the AFL & NRL.






3.


The Federal LNP govt. has already approved, in principle, significant Federal infrastructure for stadia development in Tas., when it becomes the 19th team (IMO, probably c. 2025).

I doubt greatly the AFL clubs would approve a 23 Round.
The 2 parasitical clubs, HFC & NMFC

I support your view that the AFL & CA should seek local Council & govt funding for new, large (minimum20,,,?) oval stadia in Newcastle & Wollongong only. The AFL should make promises of scheduling 6 games pa (3 at each), for 20 years, if these new oval stadia were built; & CA promise holding first class cricket matches at these new stadia (2 pa? at each), for 20 years. Inducements must be offered- to placate taxpayers/politically "viability".

I don't support your other locations for new oval stadia because:-

. Rockhampton has only a very small following for the AFL, & GR AF there. Ditto Mackay, Central Coast, & Toowoomba.

. the Cairns & Townsville oval stadia are already adequate.

. Sunshine Coast already has a strong AFL & GR AF following; & is not too far from the Gabba- thus is not a priority in the next 10 years.
Ditto Wagga & Albury, re Manuka.

Also, the AFL & CA will, IMO, probably be seeking a major upgrade of the Gabba ($150m+ in todays $) in the next decade- this is a greater priority for AF, than your suggested Qld. locations. The AFL can't be too "greedy"!

With the predicted $280b Fed. govt. debt (Jobkeeper etc.) looming due to covid-19, govts. may be reluctant to spend large funds on stadia that are rarely used.
Death riding other codes hoping sport becomes no.1 by default. Ppl going to stop supporting local team because TV deal less? Sure!
 

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