Review What Daniel Jackson Does

[_RT_]

i agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence.
and if some how after 7 yrs jacko found the instincts to become a very good to elite inside ball player id say there is a place for him.

to put it in perspective though.
nathan foley. i have been often hounded because i refuse to rate this bloke higher than a cross between c/ b. that is c = core list solid afl player and b = very good afl player.
why simple his footskills. he at times butchers it and most of the time its average.
but foley makes up for this with his elite ability to get his hands on the ball in congestion. and by hand use it well with good vision.
nathan is a footballer his instincts dictate what he does and as such it just happens. jacko oin the other hand is not an instict player if you like. in fact his lack of footy smarts is appalling.
it was the risk we took when we drafted him.we knew his back ground and we knew he had heaps to learn about the game.

anyway if he can become a brett kirk id stick with him. that is do a job week in week out on damaging players and think his way thru situations with ball in hand and use well foe sure keep him but at 25 it aint gunna happen.
i will say again 8th yr unbelievable. its this that keeps us mired in mediocrity. 8 bloody yrs.

A few things that may interest you:
- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall).
- His clearance work also improved winning 4.4 per game compared to 3.4 in 09. His tackling also increased from 4.9 to 5.9.

To me it suggests that Jackson is heading in the right direction when it comes to being that negating run with midfielder that we want as part of our rotation. Now if he can just reel in the undisciplined acts and learn to give the ball off by hand a little more to create more link up play we may just get there.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

A few things that may interest you:
- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall).
- His clearance work also improved winning 4.4 per game compared to 3.4 in 09. His tackling also increased from 4.9 to 5.9.

To me it suggests that Jackson is heading in the right direction when it comes to being that negating run with midfielder that we want as part of our rotation. Now if he can just reel in the undisciplined acts and learn to give the ball off by hand a little more to create more link up play we may just get there.

Those bolded IMO , are the only relevant stats and it's good to see that he has improved those , the rest can be very deceiving as has been discussed in the past !

 

[zipper12]

A few things that may interest you:
- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall).
- His clearance work also improved winning 4.4 per game compared to 3.4 in 09. His tackling also increased from 4.9 to 5.9.

To me it suggests that Jackson is heading in the right direction when it comes to being that negating run with midfielder that we want as part of our rotation. Now if he can just reel in the undisciplined acts and learn to give the ball off by hand a little more to create more link up play we may just get there.

You know it won't (interest claws)- the whole stats, logic thing- even the use of caps is a little suspicious. You need to work on your cryptic rambling comments that just trail off. And make it more about you ie "i wrote jackson off in 1923 and he's done nothing to convince me that hes taken a blind piece of notice of what i wrote i pegged him as a glass half-full"

 

[_RT_]

Those bolded IMO , are the only relevant stats and it's good to see that he has improved those , the rest can be very deceiving as has been discussed in the past !

Actually the others are quite relevant. If people want Jackson to become an elite inside ball winning mid that can tag then you need him a) getting his hand on the pill, b) hitting targets with those disposals c) restricting the amount of disposals that his opponents are getting and d) winning his fair share of contested possessions. Those numbers show that he is doing all of that.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Actually the others are quite relevant. If people want Jackson to become an elite inside ball winning mid that can tag then you need him a) getting his hand on the pill, b) hitting targets with those disposals c) restricting the amount of disposals that his opponents are getting and d) winning his fair share of contested possessions. Those numbers show that he is doing all of that.

- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall).


How are the stats calculated as to who is his opponent ?
Contested possessions are not solely based on stoppages ?
Do you think Jackson is more efficient by either hand or foot , than Cotchin or Martin ?

IIRC a possession gained from a marking contest is considered a contested possession .
So being completely cynical it could be argued that his efficiency increased as he was in more space when giving the disposal and his contested Footy stats increased as he was involved in more marking contests , that he gained possession from yet not necessarily took the mark ?

 

[_RT_]

- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall).


How are the stats calculated as to who is his opponent ?
Contested possessions are not solely based on stoppages ?
Do you think Jackson is more efficient by either hand or foot , than Cotchin or Martin ?

IIRC a possession gained from a marking contest is considered a contested possession .
So being completely cynical it could be argued that his efficiency increased as he was in more space when giving the disposal and his contested Footy stats increased as he was involved in more marking contests , that he gained possession from yet not necessarily took the mark ?

The stats are based on what his direct opponents got compared to what he got.
As for the contested possessions let me clarify something.

Jackson averaged 8.6 contested possessions 4.4 clearances and only 0.3 contested marks per game. Martin averaged 8.5 contested possessions 4.8 clearances and 0.1 contested marks while Cotchin averaged 9.6 contested possessions, 4.8 clearances and only 0.4 contested marks.

Are you now going to suggest that both Cotchin and Martin also win the majority of their contested possessions as a result of winning possession from a contested marking situation?

I think its becoming quite clear that Jackson is just as important to our midfield set up as what Cotchin and Martin are, no matter how much some posters would like it to not be the case.

 

[Rayzorwire]

You seem to have overlooked the question in my last post RT.

one thing you can bank on daniel jackson will not improve he will always make poor decisions and butcher the ball at times. 8 yrs in and still the exact same debate rages about this bloke.

LMAO...not quite the same debate Claude. When you started out you wanted him delisted for not being part of our best-40 players, you insisted then he was incapable of ever improving or being an AFL player, totally useless etc....now you're left to whinge that he's in our top-10 players, grudgingly admit he's played a few great games, and hear the coach say repeatedly we can't do without him.

Most people would pack it in at this point, but not you. Despite being so consistently wrong about what he's capable of achieving, you're still at it, attacking an increasingly shorter list of 'deficiencies and inabilities' as the years go on, still pretending that the fact Jackson and Judd turn the ball over at the same average rate has no relevance to your repeated insistence that Jackson turns the ball over way too often, still feigning expertise badly.

i have maintained for yrs now that players like tuck and jackson have got games primarily
because of a dearth of big bodies.

You wish, you've spent years saying they both should be delisted, right up until you finally saw the end result of a midfield without Tuck early last year. Now, after years of rejecting the opinions of those who pointed out our lack of big bodies as good reason to keep these players, you adopt the opinion as your own, don't think nobody notices.

It's much like your 'Derickx will instantly replace Graham as no.1 ruck' assertions from earlier this pre-season. Once reports came from training that Graham was flogging Derickx, you backed your truck up at 100 miles an hour, wiped off your teflon version of credibility while you thought nobody was looking, and went back to just grumbling about how we should have replaced Graham via the draft years ago with whichever ruckman is in vogue.

yep kirky...because he was a footballer he would alwys find the ball he knew instinctively where to go...

Ah, well I guess Jackson must get the ball so much solely through enormous good luck repeating itself game after game, because as you say, he's 'not a footballer.'

May I remind you that the last time you went down this 'opposition player x is way better than our player' road was last pre-season, where you ended up making a highly amusing case for the solid gold ongoing value of Mitch Hahn.

I want to see Jackson go back to a direct run-with role, have not seen him play that under Hardwick to this point. If he's not negating someone, I still struggle to see his positives out-weighing his negatives.

Starting to strongly doubt Hardwick will ever play the old fashioned style of tagger again DD, he wants what Jackson is doing for us now and to me, it makes sense.

In the past it's been common to sacrifice one player's game to tag the opposition's best ball user and try to limit their effectiveness, what I think we're trying to do is prevent those best ball users from receiving as much ball by playing Jackson on the best extractor and being pretty confident that he can out-extract his opponent or wrap him up in a tackle most times when he does get first hands on the ball.

The theory behind this change in tactic appears to go something along the lines of:

If you try to tag a damaging ball user from a good midfield, the hard nut extractor(s) can and will prevent you being very effective at it by blocking and smashing your tagger, and/or the damaging ball user can just simply beat your tag. However, if you can take the hard nut extractor(s) out of the equation by limiting their ability to feed the outside players (by winning more of the the same ball they also need to win and/or tackling them well enough and often enough), then you're often interrupting the supply to multiple damaging ball users instead of one.

A good example of how effective that can be is in the last quarter from the clips where Jackson is so all over Kennedy in the tackle that the ball just spills free to Edwards and gives us our easiest I-50 of the day at the most crucial point of the match. If one of our 'gun ball user' mids had first hands on that ball it's extremely unlikely we could have got such a clean, effective clearance, while if we hadn't had our best tackler on their best extractor the ball may well have headed into their attack instead of ours.

Another way of explaining it would be that we'd play Jackson on Riskytelly over Ablett, dry up Risky's effective clearances to the other mids, prevent him blocking for Ablett because Jackson is racking up clearances, and make Ablett go and get his own ball as often as possible because he's less dangerous having to feed out to someone else than he is receiving the ball upright at full pace from someone like Risky.

We'll adapt it for individual teams of course, but I think we're far more likely to see Jackson playing the above role than tagging the out and out 'superstar' mids in the future, we'll just put our best mids head to head with those players I suspect.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

The stats are based on what his direct opponents got compared to what he got.
As for the contested possessions let me clarify something.

Jackson averaged 8.6 contested possessions 4.4 clearances and only 0.3 contested marks per game. Martin averaged 8.5 contested possessions 4.8 clearances and 0.1 contested marks while Cotchin averaged 9.6 contested possessions, 4.8 clearances and only 0.4 contested marks.

Are you now going to suggest that both Cotchin and Martin also win the majority of their contested possessions as a result of winning possession from a contested marking situation?

I think its becoming quite clear that Jackson is just as important to our midfield set up as what Cotchin and Martin are, no matter how much some posters would like it to not be the case.

RT the reference to contested possession including a mark or dropped mark , was to simply point out that contested possession and/or disposal efficiency stats can be quite deceiving .

As much as I think that a lot of stats are questionable I thought you may find this interesting.

adding to your post which stated

"- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall). "

38.78 % of Jackson's possessions were contested
41.99 % of Martin's possession were contested
49.15 % of Cotchin's possessions were contested

So you'd probably suspect based on these that Jackson should have a significantly better efficiency . It also seriously questions the perception of Jackson being so highly ranked on contested football, especially given the other players age and experience.

Let's not turn this into player x versus players y and y, by using questionable stats .

If you wish to think Jacksons as important to our midfield as Cotchin and Martin that's fine and your choice .

 

[CallMeAl]

I'm not a big Jackson fan as he does have serious limitations, but there are plenty of bigger spuds than him with a premiership medallion, though.

Players as hard as he is with top class skills are actually quite rare.

If we can upgrade on him well and good, but right now when he and/or tuck are out we loose so much in the clinches.

Evan as it is Hardwick has said he wants Martin to get more outside football. He must understand that constantly getting a young players body bashed in packs is not conductive to a long career.

 

[Rayzorwire]

38.78 % of Jackson's possessions were contested
41.99 % of Martin's possession were contested
49.15 % of Cotchin's possessions were contested

So you'd probably suspect based on these that Jackson should have a significantly better efficiency . It also seriously questions the perception of Jackson being so highly ranked on contested football, especially given the other players age and experience.

Let's not turn this into player x versus players y and y, by using questionable stats .

LOL...if you don't want that then maybe don't start doing it?

Although, I would point out that the stats (like all stats) themselves are not questionable, your analysis of them is.

Cotchin and Martin have a higher percentage of contested possessions because they're not yet fit enough to pick up the hard running, around the ground possessions Jackson does.

Their % of contested possessions to uncontested will almost certainly go down considerably over time to around Jackson's level as they begin to be able to do more of the hard running that elite mids do to get closer to 30 possessions than the 19-20 average Cotchin and Martin were getting last season. They won't be at more stoppages a game, but they will (hopefully) add 5-10 to their average possessions a game over the next couple of years.

 

[santa claws]

this thread just gets funnier and funnier. the blinkered crowd sure do stick their heels in when it comes to one of their favorites.

its got to the stage where opposition players who have had better careers than jackson are ridiculed and called duds. very funny indeed.

the excuses and thats what they are excuses just keep on coming.

hmm has mitch hahn achieved more than jackson or kirk have they been better footballers than jackson. well i dont think you will find many supporters out side of richmond who would argue that point.
kirk and hahn are duds yet have been better than jackson. and they have been better despite deficiencies in their games.

with these two as pretty important players in their sidesmake up their clubs have achieved finals regularly and sydney a flag.
with jackson as an integral part of our midfield whwere have we got again oh thats right up to 9th and back down again.the proof is in the pudding where have we got with the many jackson types we have had.

yep if kirk and hahn are duds daniel jackson most certainly is.

i will say again with the likes of jackson tuck foley white edwards connors king nahas mcguane graham and possibly rance gourdis getting regular games we will struggle to win games. and the reason why is obvious.

jacksons first 5 yrs are the stuff of mediocrity he was terrible.

to give credit where its due his 09 was pretty decent still turned it over and made poor decisions though. but he was back to normal in 2010.

at the end of the day it comes down to how you rate them.
at wb they delisted a player like hahn for his skill errors they actually went out and found players capable of doing his job.
with martin grigg and the return of foley and the addition of conca i believe we to have found better options than jackson.

as i have regularly stated for me it comes down to a choice between tuck and jackson and imo tuck is the better player.we should have traded jackson out at the end of 09 while he had some percieved value. one yr does not make a player and thats all we have got out of him one decent yr in 7.
that it seems is more than enough for some very blinkered posters to proclaim him a champion.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

LOL...if you don't want that then maybe don't start doing it?

Although, I would point out that the stats (like all stats) themselves are not questionable, your analysis of them is.

Cotchin and Martin have a higher percentage of contested possessions because they're not yet fit enough to pick up the hard running, around the ground possessions Jackson does.

Their % of contested possessions to uncontested will almost certainly go down considerably over time to around Jackson's level as they begin to be able to do more of the hard running that elite mids do to get closer to 30 possessions than the 19-20 average Cotchin and Martin were getting last season. They won't be at more stoppages a game, but they will (hopefully) add 5-10 to their average possessions a game over the next couple of years.

As they're uncontested possession count rises so would there efficiency , would it not ?
Keep in mind Cotchin last year averaged more clearances and more contested possessions off a limited pre season .
Also as RT has pointed out , the percentage of Jacksons possessions which were contested went from 26.3 % to 38.78% , last year his 7th season, imagine if Cotchin and Martins possession counts rise as you suggest and their contested possession % rises similarly to Jacksons in 2010 ?
As you surely should see, stats can be used to mount an argument for anything and any side you wish , if stats such as efficiency and contested possession where considered relevant would they not be preferred over eye witness evaluation, in the talent identification system ?
IMO ,Jackson should in no way be compared to Cotchin or Martin , he has, 4 at least, seasons on them and IMO plays nothing like them .

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

at wb they delisted a player like hahn for his skill errors they actually went out and found players capable of doing his job.

All his coaches have loved hahn...his QLD coach, Wallace, Eade..for...

.....the bullocking, pack-busting contest he provides....(does that ring a bell?!!?)...

I understand Footscray have rookied him for 2011...

 

[Rayzorwire]

As they're uncontested possession count rises so would there efficiency , would it not ?

Quite possibly, just to be clarify, I was addressing your "t also seriously questions the perception of Jackson being so highly ranked on contested football..." comment, I should have made that clearer in the quote.

Also as RT has pointed out , the percentage of Jacksons possessions which were contested went from 26% to 38.78% last year his 7th season,

More a product of him going from a full-time hard tagger to a role where he's expected to be a genuine clearance winner, wouldn't you say?

imagine if Martin and Martins possession counts rise as you suggest and their contested possession % rises similarly to Jacksons in 2010 ?

As I said, I think that's unlikely because the extra possessions they need to find are away from stoppages and out in the wide open spaces they haven't got the tank to be picking up ball in.

its got to the stage where opposition players who have had better careers than jackson are ridiculed and called duds. very funny indeed.

I didn't call Hahn a dud, merely highlighted your typical lack of judgement when it comes to the worth of opposition players by pointing out that you rated him highly at the beginning of last year, while I argued he was getting over the hill, terminally average and highly expendable.

I think reality has handed down the verdict on that one, and yes, it is quite funny.

Again, can you quote where I or someone else said Kirk was a dud? Of course not, you're in straw man argument mode because it's all you've got.

I'll take it you're silently conceding you were way off on Derickx/Graham?

...to give credit where its due his 09 was pretty decent

This amounts, of course, to an admission (which you have steadfastly refused to make) that you were totally wrong when you said at the beginning of his career that he didn't deserve a spot on our list and would never improve?

Having firmly established your past consistent lack of credibility on the subject of Jackson's worth and potential for improvement, why exactly do you think anyone should listen to you now?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Quite possibly, just to be clarify, I was addressing your "t also seriously questions the perception of Jackson being so highly ranked on contested football..." comment, I should have made that clearer in the quote.



More a product of him going from a full-time hard tagger to a role where he's expected to be a genuine clearance winner, wouldn't you say?

Yea I reckon thats a fair and reasonable assumption, as would that Cotchin in particular had a higher percentage of contested possession percentage and inturn lower disposal efficiency, due to being tagged regularly ?


As I said, I think that's unlikely because the extra possessions they need to find are away from stoppages and out in the wide open spaces they haven't got the tank to be picking up ball in.

TBH I don't understand the underlined portion ?
I thought it was actually good coaching and good to see both players to realise they didnt have the tank, and turned their attention to contested possessions. As you've stated as their engines build they'll have the ability to maintain their contested possesion count and also to burn opposing players off in space , hopefully.



I didn't call Hahn a dud, merely highlighted your typical lack of judgement when it comes to the worth of opposition players by pointing out that you rated him highly at the beginning of last year, while I argued he was getting over the hill, terminally average and highly expendable.

I think reality has handed down the verdict on that one, and yes, it is quite funny.

Again, can you quote where I or someone else said Kirk was a dud? Of course not, you're in straw man argument mode because it's all you've got.

I'll take it you're silently conceding you were way off on Derickx/Graham?



This amounts, of course, to an admission (which you have steadfastly refused to make) that you were totally wrong when you said at the beginning of his career that he didn't deserve a spot on our list and would never improve?

Having firmly established your past consistent lack of credibility on the subject of Jackson's worth and potential for improvement, why exactly do you think anyone should listen to you now?

Furthermore from the above I'll re-iterate, if Jackson can increase significantly his handball percentage, he will be greater recieved by all and IMO will be of more benefit to the side .
The one question mark constantly over Jackson is that he bangs it onto the boot to often, and the sides biggest knock is that we constantly run forward of the ball and therefore apply minimal pressure after turnovers.
IMO if Jackson, and others who are within the side as predominate contest extractors, start handballing to recievers in space on the defensive side of the contest, they get seen in a different light and we improve as a side remarkably .

 

[Barnzy]

Here's a stat - we only took a mark from 7% of Daniel Jacksons kicks into the forward 50 while Dayne Beams lead the AFL in this stat with 62% - AFL Prospectus.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Here's a stat - we only took a mark from 7% of Daniel Jacksons kicks into the forward 50 while Dayne Beams lead the AFL in this stat with 62% - AFL Prospectus.

OMG , Is that a reindeer and sleigh I can hear, you know what that means !

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

First off, great video mate, had the old blood pumping after watching this one. This video showed what I have been saying about Jackson for ages, he need a player like him in this side. Those slightly off the ball hits and bumps, hard tackles where you slam players and times when he was pushing players around are exactly what this club needs, for too long I've seen our players be bullied off the ball and there is no way to be a successful club without having a player who does this. It's not dirty, its aggressive and it's about time. Sure, he does hold the ball up every now and then, but just look at his effort in the final minutes of that game, he throws himself onto a contest from about 5 metres away, his actions inspire others to do the same.

First-off, great video. Really enjoyed watching it as a lead-in to the season as well as some insight on Jackson.

I think what most people are saying is correct...it is difficult to convince people of a player's worth by showing him one game in which he plays well. However, I do believe Jackson holds a valuable position in our side and this video shows that.

I quoted this comment because I absolutely agree with the final statement, where Jackson is throwing himself at the ball and the man in the dying stages of the game. Great aggression, great determination and inspiring play.

Also he does do a lot of great things in this video...would be great to see him improve on his errors as well and continue to grow as a player.

Go Tiges/Jacko

 

[TFLUA-Tiger]

This thread is a thoroughly interesting read - one of the better ones of the off-season.

Question to Claws: Who do you want in the limiting a player/but still playing offensively role that Jackson plays so effectively? Tuck can't handle both a man and shovelling out the clearances - that was why both Wallace and DH dropped him at certain points.

Contin isn't ready. All who say he can do what Jackson are doing are flawed, purely because Contin will never be a zone buster. His disposal is neat, but rarely exceeds 40 metres.

Grigg could possibly end up in that role - the long kick and the mature body giving him clear advantages - but I think I'd give Grigg Tuck's role before giving him Jackson's.

You talk about how Tuck and Jackson have the same flaws - but you never look they do differently - especially off the ball. Look at how Jackson imposes himself on a contest physically, and how he protects his younger team-mates. How often have you seen Tuck do those 1 percenters that provide chop outs to our inexperienced midfielders?

 

[Rayzorwire]

...Cotchin in particular had a higher percentage of contested possession percentage and inturn lower disposal efficiency, due to being tagged regularly ?

Yep, good point.

TBH I don't understand the underlined portion ?

Just that they've lacked the stamina to do the gut running it takes to get high possession tallies.

...if Jackson can increase significantly his handball percentage, he will be greater recieved by all and IMO will be of more benefit to the side .

I agree and I pointed out on numerous occasions last season that I was disappointed when particularly Deledio and Cotchin were in positions to deliver long inside-50, yet handballed to a static Jackson and made him do the delivering. As I said then, I don't know whether it was them momentarily forgetting their roles as designated kickers, or whether having specific designated kickers is actually part of our gradually evolving game plan yet (or will ever be for that matter), but I'd hope to see them take responsibility for those situations in the future by kicking it themselves and I hope that's the message they got from the coaching staff.

So it's really not a cut and dried case of Jackson deliberately taking on tasks which are at the weaker end of the scale in terms of his skill set (e.g. drilling perfect short passes inside-50), sometimes he has these situations thrust upon him by others. I'd also refer back to the video as evidence of the sort of options he often gets presented with - he's got no reasonable chance to hand off responsibility, has he? I'm sure he'd love a hard running HBF or winger to cruise past him offering a handball opportunity a lot more often, that hasn't happened much yet in his career.

Here's a stat - we only took a mark from 7% of Daniel Jacksons kicks into the forward 50 while Dayne Beams lead the AFL in this stat with 62% - AFL Prospectus.

Who'd have guessed that the premier had better forward targets and systems than the 15th ranked side eh?

And who'd have guessed that you'd once again be rude enough to continue commenting on someone else's thread while simultaneously refusing to engage with any rebuttal of your past comments, it's really out of character.

Here's a stat for you:

Jackson 2010 Champion Data average rating - 86.5
Beams 2010 Champion Data average rating - 84.9

At this point in his career Beams must be pretty damn average at the things Jackson does well considering he can't out-rate him despite all those goal assists, similar stats, playing in the no.1 side etc., right?

I quoted this comment because I absolutely agree with the final statement, where Jackson is throwing himself at the ball and the man in the dying stages of the game. Great aggression, great determination and inspiring play.

Thanks paul, I was surprised more people didn't comment on that play, to me that's everything you want to see from the bloke doing Jackson's role if you're building a finals side, it is inspirational and it's things like that which make a difference in big games where the season is on the line.

 

[_RT_]

You seem to have overlooked the question in my last post RT.

Didn't overlook it just didn't want to guess as to what he could have done just by looking at limited vision of a youtube clip, as you don't get a real idea of what is or isn't available.

RT the reference to contested possession including a mark or dropped mark , was to simply point out that contested possession and/or disposal efficiency stats can be quite deceiving .

As much as I think that a lot of stats are questionable I thought you may find this interesting.

adding to your post which stated

"- In 2010 Jackson had a differential of -30 between the amount of possessions he had and what his opponents had.
- In terms of contested possessions he went from winning 26.3% of disposals in a contest to 38.8% thats an increase of 12.5%
- His disposal efficiency went from 67.3% to 69%, his kicking efficiency went from 55.6 to 59. Still not great but moving in the right direction and compares well to Martin 60%(70.6% overall) & Cotchin 54.5% (62.3% overall). "

38.78 % of Jackson's possessions were contested
41.99 % of Martin's possession were contested
49.15 % of Cotchin's possessions were contested

So you'd probably suspect based on these that Jackson should have a significantly better efficiency . It also seriously questions the perception of Jackson being so highly ranked on contested football, especially given the other players age and experience.

Let's not turn this into player x versus players y and y, by using questionable stats .

If you wish to think Jacksons as important to our midfield as Cotchin and Martin that's fine and your choice .

In 07 Jackson was averaged 71.3% kicking efficiency and 76.2% overall efficiency. He was also averaging 4.1 contested possessions, 14 possessions and only 1.3 clearances overall per game.

4 seasons later those numbers have changed dramatically. His disposal efficiency is down to 59% by foot and 69% overall. While his contested possessions have doubled, his total possessions have also nearly doubled and his clearance rate has nearly tripled.

It would be fair to suggest that this has happened because Jackson has become more of an inside midfielder than he was early in his career.

As for being just as important to our midfield as Cotchin and Martin, its quite simple, Jacksons size and strength is what makes him important, not so much his footy smarts or quality of disposal.

You need that big bodied midfielder who can do all the grunt work like blocking & shepherding around packs that allows the smaller blokes to get out in the open that little bit easier.

Here's a stat - we only took a mark from 7% of Daniel Jacksons kicks into the forward 50 while Dayne Beams lead the AFL in this stat with 62% - AFL Prospectus.

One major thing to consider when reading that stat Barnzy. We delivered the ball to Jack on 189 occassions, the next best were Post and Collins with 18 each. At the Pies Beams had a few more reliable targets to go to in Cloke Dawes & Leigh Brown. You would hope that as we develop a couple more reliable targets Jacksons numbers in this area would increase.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Yep, good point.

Just that they've lacked the stamina to do the gut running it takes to get high possession tallies.



I agree and I pointed out on numerous occasions last season that I was disappointed when particularly Deledio and Cotchin were in positions to deliver long inside-50, yet handballed to a static Jackson and made him do the delivering. As I said then, I don't know whether it was them momentarily forgetting their roles as designated kickers, or whether having specific designated kickers is actually part of our gradually evolving game plan yet (or will ever be for that matter), but I'd hope to see them take responsibility for those situations in the future by kicking it themselves and I hope that's the message they got from the coaching staff.

So it's really not a cut and dried case of Jackson deliberately taking on tasks which are at the weaker end of the scale in terms of his skill set (e.g. drilling perfect short passes inside-50), sometimes he has these situations thrust upon him by others. I'd also refer back to the video as evidence of the sort of options he often gets presented with - he's got no reasonable chance to hand off responsibility, has he? I'm sure he'd love a hard running HBF or winger to cruise past him offering a handball opportunity a lot more often, that hasn't happened much yet in his career.



Who'd have guessed that the premier had better forward targets and systems than the 15th ranked side eh?

And who'd have guessed that you'd once again be rude enough to continue commenting on someone else's thread while simultaneously refusing to engage with any rebuttal of your past comments, it's really out of character.

Here's a stat for you:

Jackson 2010 Champion Data average rating - 86.5
Beams 2010 Champion Data average rating - 84.9

At this point in his career Beams must be pretty damn average at the things Jackson does well considering he can't out-rate him despite all those goal assists, similar stats, playing in the no.1 side etc., right?




Thanks paul, I was surprised more people didn't comment on that play, to me that's everything you want to see from the bloke doing Jackson's role if you're building a finals side, it is inspirational and it's things like that which make a difference in big games where the season is on the line.

Is it possible that Cotchin and Lids were handballing to Jackson in the hope that he would give it back to them and then provide a block to allow them to kick with less pressure .Because IIRC I have seen Jacko burn them and smack it onto the boot .
IMO our top 3 decision makers would be Lids, Newman and Cotchin , who I believe are up there with the best in the competition , on face value if Cotchin or Lids where giving Jackson the footy I'd suggest he was the best option ?

 

[fred swift]

this thread just gets funnier and funnier. the blinkered crowd sure do stick their heels in when it comes to one of their favorites.

its got to the stage where opposition players who have had better careers than jackson are ridiculed and called duds. very funny indeed.

the excuses and thats what they are excuses just keep on coming.

hmm has mitch hahn achieved more than jackson or kirk have they been better footballers than jackson. well i dont think you will find many supporters out side of richmond who would argue that point.
kirk and hahn are duds yet have been better than jackson. and they have been better despite deficiencies in their games.

with these two as pretty important players in their sidesmake up their clubs have achieved finals regularly and sydney a flag.
with jackson as an integral part of our midfield whwere have we got again oh thats right up to 9th and back down again.the proof is in the pudding where have we got with the many jackson types we have had.

yep if kirk and hahn are duds daniel jackson most certainly is.

i will say again with the likes of jackson tuck foley white edwards connors king nahas mcguane graham and possibly rance gourdis getting regular games we will struggle to win games. and the reason why is obvious.

jacksons first 5 yrs are the stuff of mediocrity he was terrible.

to give credit where its due his 09 was pretty decent still turned it over and made poor decisions though. but he was back to normal in 2010.

at the end of the day it comes down to how you rate them.
at wb they delisted a player like hahn for his skill errors they actually went out and found players capable of doing his job.
with martin grigg and the return of foley and the addition of conca i believe we to have found better options than jackson.

as i have regularly stated for me it comes down to a choice between tuck and jackson and imo tuck is the better player.we should have traded jackson out at the end of 09 while he had some percieved value. one yr does not make a player and thats all we have got out of him one decent yr in 7.
that it seems is more than enough for some very blinkered posters to proclaim him a champion.

with u 100 % santa all those u named a duds except foley and we r in trouble big time till they r of the list as for people saying jackson in top 10 f--- me nothing more than a vfl player at best u must b the same guys that think we r a chance today when we travel to play cats at geelong

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

with u 100 % santa all those u named a duds except foley and we r in trouble big time till they r of the list as for people saying jackson in top 10 f--- me nothing more than a vfl player at best u must b the same guys that think we r a chance today when we travel to play cats at geelong

Talk about santa's little helper!!......

Hahaha...at least your post made me laugh......

 

[Haggard H]

Here's a stat - we only took a mark from 7% of Daniel Jacksons kicks into the forward 50 while Dayne Beams lead the AFL in this stat with 62% - AFL Prospectus.

Here's a stat (or two) - Daniel Jackson disposal efficiency = 69% (38.8% contested), Dayne Beams 72% (30.4% contested). So pretty much the same efficiency but Jacko does it under considerably more pressure (and gets 1.7 more disposals per game) - AFL Prospectus.


No slight on Beams though, he does everything he should - as does Jacko.