Review What Daniel Jackson Does

["The Roar Is Back"]

Think of how often Jackson has the time Newman does when he has it though.

Over 64% of Jackson disposals are uncontested ?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Whats more costly you ask? IMO its the turnover in the backline that results in a scoring opportunity. If its turned over in our F50 at least we've got a better chance of getting the ball back, if we turn it over in our D50 odds are its going to be a score.[/QUOTE]

Exactly why you'll see players who gain most of their possessions in the d50, have large scoring %'s off their turnovers !

 

[_RT_]

Over 64% of Jackson disposals are uncontested ?

Over 72% of Newmans are also uncontested. Therefore Newman has lot more time and space when disposing of the ball than what Jackson does.

 

[_RT_]

Exactly why you'll see players who gain most of their possessions in the d50, have large scoring %'s off their turnovers !

That is why I think Newmans turnovers are more costly than our forwards not taking a mark off of Jacksons I50 enteries.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Over 72% of Newmans are also uncontested. Therefore Newman has lot more time and space when disposing of the ball than what Jackson does.

How from contested and uncontesed stats can you draw that conclusion , does that stat calculate the space and time to dispose ?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

That is why I think Newmans turnovers are more costly than our forwards not taking a mark off of Jacksons I50 enteries.

Naturally as it has been established a turnover in D50 , has a greater chance of being scored against with the next possession , lucky Newman only turns it over 18% of the time , and in comparison Jacksons f50's fail to be marked 93% of the time .

 

[fred swift]

That is why I think Newmans turnovers are more costly than our forwards not taking a mark off of Jacksons I50 enteries.

u blokes r doing my f ----n head in , 1 thing is for shore if newman sat his fat arse on a wing running around like a headless chook like ( jackson is adud ) does JR 8 would have a leather poisening. please stop crapping on about stats they mean jack shit.

 

[santa claws]

u blokes r doing my f ----n head in , 1 thing is for shore if newman sat his fat arse on a wing running around like a headless chook like ( jackson is adud ) does JR 8 would have a leather poisening. please stop crapping on about stats they mean jack shit.

here here
.

the stats people argue for arguments sake what does the bloody eyes tell ya. the eyes tell ya jackson is very ordinary by foot and with his decision making but sheesh some stats refute that while others dont. ya know what the eyes have it.

sheesh its even got to the point where people are arguing the time he has to deliver. bloody hell one of the major criticisms of jackson is the stopping propping failing to make a decision. thats not a stat by the way you only get that with your eyes. he takes a mark never plays on changes his mind a dozen times and invariably turns it over or more common kicks to a contest having killed of any forward momemtum we had. thats not a stat either.

we have been thru this with bloody stats they are worthless yes worthless unless the whole is taken into consideration. a part of the whole is your eyes. imo its the most important part.

 

[_RT_]

here here
.

the stats people argue for arguments sake what does the bloody eyes tell ya. the eyes tell ya jackson is very ordinary by foot and with his decision making but sheesh some stats refute that while others dont. ya know what the eyes have it.

sheesh its even got to the point where people are arguing the time he has to deliver. bloody hell one of the major criticisms of jackson is the stopping propping failing to make a decision. thats not a stat by the way you only get that with your eyes. he takes a mark never plays on changes his mind a dozen times and invariably turns it over or more common kicks to a contest having killed of any forward momemtum we had. thats not a stat either.

we have been thru this with bloody stats they are worthless yes worthless unless the whole is taken into consideration. a part of the whole is your eyes. imo its the most important part.

I don't disagree that Jackson is, at times, poor by foot. Name a player in the AFL that isn't. Unfortunately the thread has been taken way off topic, which incidently was what does Jackson do. The problem is all the anti Jackson brigade chose to focus on his disposal and I tried to argue the case against them. Personally I think I made some valid points and at the same time I can appreciate the concerns brought up by others. Even though Jackson has been in the system for 7 years it should be pointed out that he has only just entered what is commonly seen as the prime years of a footballers career. For that simple fact I'm more than prepared for him to continue on being an important part of our midfield until such time that someone signifigantly better comes along to play the role that he does. Right now I don't see anyone on our list who is or could be.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

I think it was Disraeli who said ... 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics'....

...It has since become a common place phrase to describe the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions....

Guys plz your doing my head in with all these footy statistics being traded back and forth ad infinitum.

...is there a point to it all...

Honesty i am getting flashes of my youth where instead of statistics we all use to pull out our well worn footy playing cards to swap and trade...forever seeking that elusive top player...a never ending saga...

Well the only statistic i'm interested in...is whether my football side the mighty tigers has kicked more goals than the oppostion...simple really...

Statistics can never measure the effect of royce hearts mark in the dying moments of the '67 granny on the richmond players resolve or the supporters roar in helping propel the tigers onward to victory...or jezzas...

Statistics can never measure a bad umpires decision and its effects on the game...ala libertores/rocca kick's for goal...

Statistics can never measure the impact of a byron pickett 'hit' on a stunned crowd and opposition...

Statistics can never measure the courage of a dermott brereton in playing on after being pole axed by yeats in the '89 granny and its galvanising effect to rally the hawks...

Statistics can never measure the passion, dedication and loyalty of a club follower, their stories, their memories...players deeds...club histories..club champions...

I never needed statistics to tell me that RICHOOO was a great tiger player..Now thats what i'll remember...not statistics...

 

[Rayzorwire]

I think the thing you're missing here ptf, is that Newman's only real strength is his kicking, he's not blessed with pace or stamina, he's not good overhead, and as we'll find out again this season like we have for the last 7-8, he lacks a lot when it comes to shutting down an opponent. So for him to be turning the ball over that often and so damagingly, highlights a major flaw within his only area of strength.

Jackson doesn't even have the smallest flaw in his areas of strength, he's unquestionably elite.

Was an innocent mistake. Why are you such a massive tool?

LMAO...poor you Barnzy...the innocent, persecuted lamb whose reward for trying to further discussion is to be treated unfairly.

Not the troll who blew his own feet off and now can't find them.

Rayzor, if this is correct (and I am not doubting it at this point), then I have been lagging 5 years behind, and you have just dragged me into the current era.

I will be watching closely this aspect of our play in the early rounds. The role Jackson has been playing for 12 months sure has had me puzzled.

I actually twigged to it because of Brad Sewell's changed role in '08 DD, Hardwick's adopted the same philosophy (for all we know he came up with the idea originally). I think Sewell was in the Hawks' top-3 most important players over their flag year in '08, he had a stellar season, but I suspect a lot of people missed what he was doing and how important he was to their success. I don't think it's any coincidence that they've struggled in the two seasons since while he's been out injured or playing well below full fitness. Obviously other factors have been involved, but he's very important to them and they have no replacement even remotely capable of doing the same job. I think we found out the same thing when Jackson was out last year, hence the recruitment of Grigg, we need several of these types of players.

His kicking when not under physical pressure is nowhere near the effectiveness of many others.

I think it's very difficult to make that case when it comes to overall effectiveness, as in the examples of his two long I-50's in the clips. Those kicks have such a low percentage chance of being marked regardless of who is kicking them, that the only important factor is how far it travels.

I fully agree that we should be looking to others when it comes to spotting up targets from 60m out, and I'd prefer to see him with a lot more opportunities to dish the ball off, but the kind of I-50's Jackson is mostly kicking are from so far outside-50 and so clearly going to be to a contest that the only important consideration is the distance gained - he's better at that than most.

 

[Rayzorwire]

u blokes r doing my f ----n head in , please stop crapping on about stats they mean jack shit.

It's nobody's problem but yours that you aren't able to formulate a counter-argument beyond 'Jackson is a dud.'

As for your demands that everyone on this thread should lower their posting to your level, good luck with that. Maybe you could start a 'Jackson is a dud', 'no he's not' repeated a hundred times thread of your own to wallow around and hang out with Barnzy and Claude on?

the stats people argue for arguments sake what does the bloody eyes tell ya. the eyes tell ya jackson is very ordinary by foot and with his decision making but sheesh some stats refute that while others dont. ya know what the eyes have it.

Which is why AFL teams are paying YOU for your 'eyes only' analysis Claude, rather than harvesting and analysing every single stat they can get their hands on?

Ironically, you drag out stats in your arguments regularly, the only time you moan about them is when your clearly wrong opinions are proven wrong by them.

 

[CoggaRules]

It's nobody's problem but yours that you aren't able to formulate a counter-argument beyond 'Jackson is a dud.'

As for your demands that everyone on this thread should lower their posting to your level, good luck with that. Maybe you could start a 'Jackson is a dud', 'no he's not' repeated a hundred times thread of your own to wallow around and hang out with Barnzy and Claude on?




Which is why AFL teams are paying YOU for your 'eyes only' analysis Claude, rather than harvesting and analysing every single stat they can get their hands on?

Ironically, you drag out stats in your arguments regularly, the only time you moan about them is when your clearly wrong opinions are proven wrong by them.

Oh come on FFS erayzorhead, you come up with a few highlights of one game, spruiking watch closely, do this, do that and somehow you omit to add the bucket load of games where Jackson is also heavily involved in comical turn overs, where we are bent over and had our cheeks spread.
If he is going to be link man then he better get his shit together, because right now he is absolutely ****ing shitful. He can tag and win a few hard balls and do a couple of good things, yeah, but that massive error rate coming from him atm, without doubt make him liability for a team trying to produce a fast ball moving, flow on game style.

 

[Rayzorwire]

...but that massive error rate coming from him atm...

The 'massive error rate' which is identical to Judd's?

Whoops, there's those inconvenient statistical facts obscuring honest, unbiased perception again...I think Fred is going to start a thread you'll feel much more comfortable on.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

The 'massive error rate' which is identical to Judd's?

Whoops, there's those inconvenient statistical facts obscuring honest, unbiased perception again...I think Fred is going to start a thread you'll feel much more comfortable on.

Yes but wheres the fun in that?!?......

Footy's not an algebra lesson...neither is my opinion...

You know what you get with a tsunami...well its the same with a flood of statistics...you kill the post dead..

 

[Rayzorwire]

well its the same with a flood of statistics...you kill the post dead..

There's plenty of interesting discussion here, as numerous people who appreciate these things have pointed out.

If some people want to contribute purely statistical discussion (you'll notice there's none in the OP or any of my earlier posts), or bury the good discussion with posts which don't get anywhere near addressing the original topic - like the multiple posts you've made incidentally - and 'kill' the thread by doing so, there's not a lot I can do about that, is there?

 

[smasha]

This thread should be called the Seinfeld thread.

Absolute garbage.

 

[Rayzorwire]

This thread should be called the Seinfeld thread.

Superb idea, then we can find a suitable slot for your post...appropriately nestled between ads for poo explosion nappies and mobile phone ring tones.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

There's plenty of interesting discussion here, as numerous people who appreciate these things have pointed out.

If some people want to contribute purely statistical discussion (you'll notice there's none in the OP or any of my earlier posts), or bury the good discussion with posts which don't get anywhere near addressing the original topic - like the multiple posts you've made incidentally - and 'kill' the thread by doing so, there's not a lot I can do about that, is there?

Now i am offended......all this time i thought i was contributing interesting posts just like yourself and other posters on BF...

And we all know why posts/threads die on BF...theres a variety of reasons for that...

And to be fair one of the more simple explanations is that they run their course...

Nevertheless...we can always have our say/posts, we may not like what we read but thats another matter......

Personally i find your posts interesting and worth the time and effort to digest......

PS...maybe we ought to start a thread titled...'STAT A PROBLEM FOR YOU'......

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

I think the thing you're missing here ptf, is that Newman's only real strength is his kicking, he's not blessed with pace or stamina, he's not good overhead, and as we'll find out again this season like we have for the last 7-8, he lacks a lot when it comes to shutting down an opponent. So for him to be turning the ball over that often and so damagingly, highlights a major flaw within his only area of strength.

Jackson doesn't even have the smallest flaw in his areas of strength, he's unquestionably elite.




LMAO...poor you Barnzy...the innocent, persecuted lamb whose reward for trying to further discussion is to be treated unfairly.

Not the troll who blew his own feet off and now can't find them.




I actually twigged to it because of Brad Sewell's changed role in '08 DD, Hardwick's adopted the same philosophy (for all we know he came up with the idea originally). I think Sewell was in the Hawks' top-3 most important players over their flag year in '08, he had a stellar season, but I suspect a lot of people missed what he was doing and how important he was to their success. I don't think it's any coincidence that they've struggled in the two seasons since while he's been out injured or playing well below full fitness. Obviously other factors have been involved, but he's very important to them and they have no replacement even remotely capable of doing the same job. I think we found out the same thing when Jackson was out last year, hence the recruitment of Grigg, we need several of these types of players.



I think it's very difficult to make that case when it comes to overall effectiveness, as in the examples of his two long I-50's in the clips. Those kicks have such a low percentage chance of being marked regardless of who is kicking them, that the only important factor is how far it travels.

I fully agree that we should be looking to others when it comes to spotting up targets from 60m out, and I'd prefer to see him with a lot more opportunities to dish the ball off, but the kind of I-50's Jackson is mostly kicking are from so far outside-50 and so clearly going to be to a contest that the only important consideration is the distance gained - he's better at that than most.

Rayzor players don't make great players or AFL standard players for that matter, by being elite in one area, if your indicating Jackson is a better player than Newman , go right ahead because I honestly don't think it is even worthy of discussion .
Without having to revert back to the dreaded stats , less than one of Newmans possessions per week result in a score , for a guy who sets up so much from our defence I'm more than happy with that !
Jacksons major flaw IMO , is for a player who is assumed to be a contested in and under ball winner , he has way to few handballs compared to kicks , and with the way he kicks it makes it even worst !

 

[santa claws]

I don't disagree that Jackson is, at times, poor by foot. Name a player in the AFL that isn't. Unfortunately the thread has been taken way off topic, which incidently was what does Jackson do. The problem is all the anti Jackson brigade chose to focus on his disposal and I tried to argue the case against them. Personally I think I made some valid points and at the same time I can appreciate the concerns brought up by others. Even though Jackson has been in the system for 7 years it should be pointed out that he has only just entered what is commonly seen as the prime years of a footballers career. For that simple fact I'm more than prepared for him to continue on being an important part of our midfield until such time that someone signifigantly better comes along to play the role that he does. Right now I don't see anyone on our list who is or could be.

so you think him poor by foot but defend against that very point by useing incomplete stats yes incomplete because they are worthless unless the whole is taken into account.
do you think him a poor decision maker as well.
where the hell would you prefer to see him with the ball outside in the open or inside dishing out. if hes to play inside for me and it would be the same for most. yet you yourself say he gets most of his possesions on the outside.
imo this bloke has been hardly an upgrade on tim fleming.

how would you rate his 7 seasons individually i ask this one because some fool thinks him elite. now that is funny.what areas is he elite in how consistent has he been over an extended period sheesh that really is delusional elite hhhaaaarrrrggghhhh.

seems to me people are very adept at knowing what hardwick thinks. if asked who he thought the better kick between jackson and newman i know he would say newman only an idiot would think otherwise.seems there are a lot of people who think jackson poor by foot and mind but hey they only see it with their eyes they have to be wrong.

you want some irrefutable stats - jackson is 25 on the 25/4/11. he has played 84 games. he will be in his 8th yr.and he has kicked 22 goals in his career.
he is 188cm and 91 kg and at times even that is debateable. there are probably a few other irrefutable stats out there but nearly every other stat you me or anybody else comes up with is debatable.
that is unless every other tangible has been factored in.

all i need to know is hes deficient in some critical areas. hes not been able to fix these deficiencies in 7 yrs. his 7 yrs in the main have been ordinary. while atm probably still in our best 22 (which is a real indicator of how far we have to go) we need to cull what i call glass half fulls for a more rounded players. that or belatedly find a role for him where his deficiencies cant hurt us.

even i could live with him in a tagging role and useing his body in protecting the likes of martin and cotchin at stoppages.

 

[_RT_]

where the hell would you prefer to see him with the ball outside in the open or inside dishing out. if hes to play inside for me and it would be the same for most. yet you yourself say he gets most of his possesions on the outside.

Don't believe I said he gets most of his possessions on the outside, I did say that he gets more possessions outside than Martin or Cotchin do because of his ability to run harder and longer than they can. As for where I'd like to see him play ideally inside doing the grunt work.

how would you rate his 7 seasons individually i ask this one because some fool thinks him elite. now that is funny.what areas is he elite in how consistent has he been over an extended period sheesh that really is delusional elite hhhaaaarrrrggghhhh.

First 5 seasons I'd say were well below average, 2009 was quite good and last year he let himself down by getting himself suspended. Right now I have him as a solid B grader.

seems to me people are very adept at knowing what hardwick thinks. if asked who he thought the better kick between jackson and newman i know he would say newman only an idiot would think otherwise.seems there are a lot of people who think jackson poor by foot and mind but hey they only see it with their eyes they have to be wrong.

Never suggested that Jackson was a better kick than Newman, just that sometimes we don't always see everything that happens. Like everyone else here I'd agree that Newman is amongst our better ball users and decision makers and yet surprisingly his turnovers hurt us the most on the scoreboard.

all i need to know is hes deficient in some critical areas. hes not been able to fix these deficiencies in 7 yrs. his 7 yrs in the main have been ordinary. while atm probably still in our best 22 (which is a real indicator of how far we have to go) we need to cull what i call glass half fulls for a more rounded players. that or belatedly find a role for him where his deficiencies cant hurt us.

even i could live with him in a tagging role and useing his body in protecting the likes of martin and cotchin at stoppages.

Agree this, but as I've said time and again, until someone better comes along and actually takes Jacksons spot from him, I can't see him going anywhere. As I said above, I'd be quite happy to see him playing the tagger/enforcer role where his primary goal would be to make life for an opposition midfielder hell, and when given the chance use his size and strength to hurt the opponents of our other midfielders.

 

[fred swift]

The 'massive error rate' which is identical to Judd's?

Whoops, there's those inconvenient statistical facts obscuring honest, unbiased perception again...I think Fred is going to start a thread you'll feel much more comfortable on.

u have lost the plot or r just stupid to mention judd and the dud (jackson ) in the same sentence i think u mean carrazzo and he still wins no wonder we have been f____d for 20 + years when fools rate our dead wood with the elite. ps. santa i would take fleming any day of the week he never kick to u in the crowd every week.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Jackson is a role player, not anything more. much of the discussion in this thread is like he is taking Dusty's spot. He is in there to run all day and hit people like a sledge hammer, get the hard ball and then run and hit. If he had really good disposal he probably would be an A grader. He doesn't, so he is a role player. No team, even Geelong had enough depth to play all stars in the midfield all the time. They play role players, everyone does. I reckon he is a solid B grade AFL footballer - makes the first team each week, does a job but doesn't win games or cause the opposition to change tactics. A grade players cause the opposition to change tactics - like Chimp, Dusty, JR and Lids. I'd love to replace him with someone that had top smarts and kicking skills. Then we would have another A grade star.

He's just another mid ranked AFL player, nothing more and nothing less. If we dump him because he f's up his kicks sometimes then we lose the run and grunt in the middle. Without run and grunt you lose AFL games no matter how skilled you are. So I agree with all sides to some extent. But (to miss-quote Mony Python) 'he isn't he messiah, he's just a B grade mid'

 

[santa claws]

Don't believe I said he gets most of his possessions on the outside, I did say that he gets more possessions outside than Martin or Cotchin do because of his ability to run harder and longer than they can. As for where I'd like to see him play ideally inside doing the grunt work.

hmm apologies i think it was amcre who said jackson gets 64% of his possesions outside.
you did muddy the water though by saying newman got it 72% on the outside.basically agreeing he got it 64% of the time, and casting aspersions on other players in an attempt to deflect blame away from your line of debate.

you do agree with the 64% i assume. well that would say he gets most of his possesions on the outside. in fact that stat would back up what my eyes tell me. but im sure someone can come up with a stat to contradict.