What direction now?

[Sydneyfan]

The Bali bombings have stunned and horrified not only the majority of Australians and Indonesians but also large sections of the world, particularly in the West. The vague warnings of further Al Qaeda attacks have almost been weekly since Sept. 11, 2001 and it's true that many people have become somewhat blase about further large scale terrorist attacks occuring, particularly occuring in our neck of the woods. In hindsight, the activities of the past week showed the possibility that Al Qaeda are still operational and capable of inflicting attacks such as the French oil tanker explosion and the US talk of possible strikes, but nothing could have prepared for what would happen.

There's been times over the last few years, that the possibility has existed for attacks against Western interests in Indonesia but few would have foreseen the sheer magnitude of the Bali attack.

Evidence is emerging that Al Qaeda groups have been operating in Indonesia and that Al Qaeda (or affiliated groups) are primary suspects along with the possibility of a rogue element of the Indonesian Army being involved. Indonesia has been somewhat backward in coming forward to addressing the problem of terrorist groups in their shores.

Given all this, where does this leave Australia now? And what approach should we take now that we have experienced our largest loss of live in a single event since WWII?

Do we get more determined to stamp out the threat of terrorism?

Do we take a back step, being staunch allies of the US hasn't really helped us?

Or do we isolate ourselves from world politics and become a 'Switzerland'?


My thoughts are that instead of focussing on Iraq, the focus should remain on the removal of extremist terror groups such as Al Qaeda. Whilst I don't believe the Bali attack occured to target Australia, instead Bali being chosen as a relatively easy target containing large numbers of Westerners (factions of those involved probably didn't mind the fact that a number of Aussies would be present ).

I find it harsh to lay blame on Howard (I'm not a big fan of him but can't blame him for this) for following the US and aren't convinced that the terrorists wouldn't have occured had Australia taken more of a back seat in the anti-terror campaign. I believe that the attacks were directed at the West in general and not Australia in particular. I also believe that it would not lessen our chances of further attacks if we were to withdraw from the war against terror, the terrorists have shown that they aren't going to give up without a fight and that any Western nation or interest is considered an enemy. IMO we wouldn't stop being one of their potential targets if we were to isolate ourselves from the war on terror.

What's your thoughts?

 

[Player]

IMHO Howard did drop the ball after the attack.

Very poor form that 'foreigners' are flown out to get world class medical treatment in Australia, while locals are left to die in local hospitals.

Sure international volunteers are helping, but the accounts I heard after the attacks Western survivors could scarely believe how bad the Hospitals where.

Missed a prime opportunity to prove Australia isn't a racist country and improve relations with Indonesia.

Anyway Australian isolation wont work, there isn't enough room for two Switzerland's in the South Pacific.

 

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by Player
IMHO Howard did drop the ball after the attack.

Very poor form that 'foreigners' are flown out to get world class medical treatment in Australia, while locals are left to die in local hospitals.

Sure international volunteers are helping, but the accounts I heard after the attacks Western survivors could scarely believe how bad the Hospitals where.

Missed a prime opportunity to prove Australia isn't a racist country and improve relations with Indonesia.

Anyway Australian isolation wont work, there isn't enough room for two Switzerland's in the South Pacific.

Yeah, that was a bad move. I watched Parliamentary Question Time on TV today and Howard said that he has offered to fly any locals needing further treatment to Australian hospitals (much likely Darwin) that's good but it's a bit late, would have been a nicer gesture to do that in the first place.

 

[jim boy]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan

What's your thoughts?

I think we need to get our priorities right. First we need to find the US sniper, this is obviously the most important international issue ever to confront Australia, then we need to focus on Saddam. After all he tried to kill Dubya's dad!!

The sheer cheek!!!

I'm afraid we'll just have to let more Westerners, including Aussies, die, at least until after the US mid-term elections. Terrorists just aren't the priority.

More seriously would never be able to isolate themselves, you can't just back out and say this is someone else's problem, even if it is someone else caused it.

Australia is obviously too small to be too active on the ground, we just don't have the resources, but we can work in other ways. To defeat the terrorists, you need to do two things. First there is the obvious step of stopping any immediate actions, but this is only a short term fix and the odd bomber will always get through, you only have to look at the Israeli-palestine conflict to know that you can't win through sheer brute force. The second thing to do, and this is where Australia can really do some good, is to take away the political support of extremist organisations. Terrorist bodies don't exist because a couple of blokes get together over a weekend and decide to fly a plane into a building. They happen because a body of population feel oppressed and want to fight against being 'ripped off'. Australia can make a difference through lobbying (rather than brown-nosing) the US with reasoned argument and political nous, as well as working to undertake action in aggrieved areas that either address the source of aggravation or dispel the myths of alledged injustice. Until that happens there will always be a populace who will support the causes of terrorists and terrorism will continue to thrive.

 

[ramjet]

Originally posted by Player
IMHO Howard did drop the ball after the attack.

Very poor form that 'foreigners' are flown out to get world class medical treatment in Australia, while locals are left to die in local hospitals.

Sure international volunteers are helping, but the accounts I heard after the attacks Western survivors could scarely believe how bad the Hospitals where.

Missed a prime opportunity to prove Australia isn't a racist country and improve relations with Indonesia.

Anyway Australian isolation wont work, there isn't enough room for two Switzerland's in the South Pacific.

hardly the time for political bashing, especially when your info is wrong. the prime concern was, somewhat naturally, to ensure aussies were evacuated as soon as possible but not at the exclusion of others, regardless of their nationality. some english and swedish tourists injured in the attacks were flown to darwin and some have returned to their home nations or transferred to other hospitals around australia depending on their condition. the indonesians were offered the same service but chose not to take up the offer immediately. indonesian officials conceeded on tuesday evening they had 2 patients who would benefit from australian medical care. australia was happy to take them and one was flown to darwin on wednesday. unfortunately the second man died from his injuries as he was being boarded for evacuation. from my info from friends at darwin hospital, an injured tourist from hong kong and another nation i cant seem to recall now(maybe a kiwi?) had also been evacuated without expense.

the australian government has donated $100 000 worth of medical supplies to indonesia and a further $200 000 to aide balinese hospitals through the indonesian red cross, the restructuring and modernising of which will assist the locals for many years to come - not a short term fix during this crisis.

 

[knuckles]

Originally posted by ramjet



the australian government has donated $100 000 worth of medical supplies to indonesia and a further $200 000 to aide balinese hospitals through the indonesian red cross, the restructuring and modernising of which will assist the locals for many years to come - not a short term fix during this crisis.

Which is plenty more than than the Indo govt does for its people. Indonesia can't govern its own place. No control, and corrupt from top to bottom. Suharto was an evil corrupt person, but he could control the place. Mega is incompetent, no credibilty, has no control and surrounded by corruption. The amount of ADB and IMF funds that don't make it to people's hands is staggering. Plenty in polis bank a/cs. Might want to take lessons from Dr M on how to stamp out and stifle miltants. Of course it comes at a price of stamping out legitimate protests. I feel safe in MY. I don't in ID.
I feel for the people of Indonesia. It will become so much worse.

 

[Frodo]

It is a very complex situation with the root of it being a spiritually based Muslim society controlled by clerics envying a western based materialistic society that has thrown off the shackles of religious control.

The question is. What does Al Qaeda fight for.

I believe that it is essentially a fight for Palestine.

The Palestine situation is backed strongly by Iraq. Iraq also supports and trains Al Qaeda and seeks weapons to become a superpower in the middle east. Don't forget that it targetted Iran and then Saudia Arabia was to follow Kuwait. It also sent scud missiles against Israel despite no Israeli presence in the gulf force. So I believe that a move against Iraq is a prerequisite to the fight against Al Quaeda.

The Indonesian situation has been known by all for a year. They have taken little or no action since Sept 11. I would not visit Indonesia yet my son did last December and my sister is in Sanur today having been in Bali when the blasts occurred. But she is seein out her 2 weeks....her choice.

I ca give a huge retrospective argument for England not declaring war on Germany, keeping out of WW2 and keeping the empire it sold in lend lease agreements with USA. Hitler wrote and said many times that Endland was not Germany's natural enemy and he did not want to go to war with her. But how history would have unfolded I don't know. Certainly mainland Europe would have been German controlled, but under the EEC isn't that true today. So England could have kept out of it..for a while at least. I guess I would have been sickened had they done that and so would I be if Australia became cowards too.

 

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by Frodo

The Palestine situation is backed strongly by Iraq. Iraq also supports and trains Al Qaeda and seeks weapons to become a superpower in the middle east. Don't forget that it targetted Iran and then Saudia Arabia was to follow Kuwait. It also sent scud missiles against Israel despite no Israeli presence in the gulf force. So I believe that a move against Iraq is a prerequisite to the fight against Al Quaeda.

Your point that Al Qaeda and Iraq are working together is garbage (again). It has been stated repeatedly by even US Intelligence representatives that in fact Al Qaeda and Iraq are natural enemies of each other.

Daniel Benjamin, who served as the US National Security Council’s director of transnational threats in the 1990s, wrote in the New York Times: “Iraq and Al Qaeda are not obvious allies. In fact, they are natural enemies. A central tenet of Al Qaeda’s jihadist ideology is that secular Muslim rulers and their regimes have oppressed the believers and plunged Islam into a historic crisis. Hence, a paramount goal of Islamist revolutionaries for almost half a century has been the destruction of the regimes of such leaders...”

Even Tony Blair's 50-page dossier on Iraq published in British parliament recently provided no evidence of a link between Al Qaeda and Hussein - because there isn't one.

The only people who have been claiming that the Iraqi regime and Al Qaeda have been working together are the likes of Rumsfeld and Rice in the last few weeks. And this is only because, so frustrated is the Bush admin in their efforts to get world support behind an invasion of Iraq, they have resorted to the most shameless scaremongering and lies to try to convince people.

It goes without saying that Rice and Rumsfeld provided no evidence of their pathetic claims, Rumsfeld relying on that old monty of saying it was "highly classified".

Anything for a war.

 

[knuckles]

Equally shameless is any Arab country saying they are supporting the "cause" of the Palestinians. Don't need to look far back to see why this is so.
Should be be worded as they support anyone that attacks Israel/US etc.

Hope whatever happens in Iraq, happens quick. I would be more worried about North Korea.

 

[Portia]

Its an odd situation, given that Bali isn't part of Australia. No doubt it was a prime target for a muslim group, considering the island of Bali is primarily hindu.

I don't see how it could be reasonable or feasible to have Australians trying to stamp out terrorism through South East Asia. Unlike America, we'd be directly screwing around with our nearest neighbours, and that -is- dangerous. Its a lot easier for people to get from Indonesia to Australia than Afghanistan to America.

I don't really see how we have any real option but to let this incident go.