What do we need to finish off rebuild

[Ricmel]

Like what richo said, the number you were picked at is irrelevant once you walk through the club doors.

That is ridiculous. Pick 3 we could have taken Bont.

Who could Port Adelaide have taken after Robbie Grey at pick 55. If you are a failure at pick 55 it only matters if James Hird is at pick 71.

 

[Ricmel]

Jack Billings Name Marcus Bontempelli

For all the Hype re Bontempelli, stats are on par. Jack will be a star

I don't know where Billings will end up as a player - serviceable to good is my bet.

But to use the Bontimpelli v Billings stats comparison is just smoke and mirrors. Like lining up the stats of an early Chris Judd vs Matthew Boyd. Stats are similar but Judd's influence on games was profound.

Bontimpelli has far more influence on games than Jack at the moment.

I don't have an issue with the club selecting Jack before Bont - could have gone either way. But I think backing it up with Paddy over Petracca - history is not going to judge our efforts with selections 3 and 1 very kindly I fear.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Even the really good players will be up and down before 25 or so. We have to remember they havnt hit their peak yet.

 

[lewdogs]

I don't know where Billings will end up as a player - serviceable to good is my bet.

But to use the Bontimpelli v Billings stats comparison is just smoke and mirrors. Like lining up the stats of an early Chris Judd vs Matthew Boyd. Stats are similar but Judd's influence on games was profound.

Bontimpelli has far more influence on games than Jack at the moment.

I don't have an issue with the club selecting Jack before Bont - could have gone either way. But I think backing it up with Paddy over Petracca - history is not going to judge our efforts with selections 3 and 1 very kindly I fear.

Come on, Paddy has shown a bit already. Wouldn't be writing that one off just yet.

 

[crasha301]

That is ridiculous. Pick 3 we could have taken Bont.

Who could Port Adelaide have taken after Robbie Grey at pick 55. If you are a failure at pick 55 it only matters if James Hird is at pick 71.

You obviously dont understand the comment.

 

[gringo2011]

we need a lot of good mids, dogs have an absolutely terrible defence but they can get away with it cause of a very strong midfield

I wouldn't call them terrible, just undersized. Boyd (the good one), Morris, Murphy, Johannisen, Wood then Prudden, Cordy and Kieran Collins developing. Roughead not being played there but also capable of holding fullback.

 

[saint_]

What we also need to do, is to stop gifting average players or depth players 2 year contracts.

 

[Ricmel]

Come on, Paddy has shown a bit already. Wouldn't be writing that one off just yet.

I'm not writing Paddy off at all. I think you are right, he has shown a bit and he has some time on his side. But I think Petracca is looking very special and to be honest, he looked very special before the draft whereas Paddy was widely regarded as the best KPP of a draft that was pretty poor for KPPs. My argument at the time was take the best player and we lacked an elite midfielders as much as we lacked a KPF.

I have always maintained that had we taken Judd in 2001 instead af Ball we would have at least one and likely two more premierships in the cabinet. And I know everything is much easier in hindsight but I hope that in 10 years time we are not looking back at what might have been with Bontimpelli and Petracca leading our midfield.

 

[Ricmel]

You obviously dont understand the comment.

Obviously not.

 

[crasha301]

Obviously not.

Reread it.

 

[Ricmel]

Reread it.

You'll have to explain it.

"the number you were picked at is irrelevent once you walk through the club doors"

If I read it literally, this is something like saying that if a car is a lemon, it is a lemon whether you paid $15,000 or $200,000 for it. If that is the thought process then it is incorrect - there are expectations concerning what you will get for $15k versus $200k and obviously if the expectatiobns are not met, the value of the losses are completely disproportionate. So if our number 3 pick does not meet expectations that is far impactful than if our number 41 is a failure - in terms of the expectations that existed, the lost opportunity and the straight up value we have received.

If there is some other context or hidden meaning then I am not seeing it.

 

[lewdogs]

I'm not writing Paddy off at all. I think you are right, he has shown a bit and he has some time on his side. But I think Petracca is looking very special and to be honest, he looked very special before the draft whereas Paddy was widely regarded as the best KPP of a draft that was pretty poor for KPPs. My argument at the time was take the best player and we lacked an elite midfielders as much as we lacked a KPF.

I have always maintained that had we taken Judd in 2001 instead af Ball we would have at least one and likely two more premierships in the cabinet. And I know everything is much easier in hindsight but I hope that in 10 years time we are not looking back at what might have been with Bontimpelli and Petracca leading our midfield.

From what I've seen of Paddy I think he will be a special player.

 

[St Kilda Death]

You'll have to explain it.

"the number you were picked at is irrelevent once you walk through the club doors"

If I read it literally, this is something like saying that if a car is a lemon, it is a lemon whether you paid $15,000 or $200,000 for it. If that is the thought process then it is incorrect - there are expectations concerning what you will get for $15k versus $200k and obviously if the expectatiobns are not met, the value of the losses are completely disproportionate. So if our number 3 pick does not meet expectations that is far impactful than if our number 41 is a failure - in terms of the expectations that existed, the lost opportunity and the straight up value we have received.

If there is some other context or hidden meaning then I am not seeing it.

If port had have known how good gray would turn out to be they wouldn't have waited till pick 55. They would have traded for pick one and taken him. Ditto hird.

 

[Defacto]

we need a big contested winning, clearance winning mid like a cripps. armitage is what almost 28 and just wont cut it IMO he's far too inconsistent over the course of his career

we need some outside speed and marking, hell even someone like yeo who can seriously take a grab. need some accumulators of the ball who use it well to replace monty eventually

3rd tall def and a resting ruck would be nice but right now the midfield needs some serious talent

 

[Ricmel]

If port had have known how good gray would turn out to be they wouldn't have waited till pick 55. They would have traded for pick one and taken him. Ditto hird.

Of course. Not sure the relevance of that though. What we are talking about here is this,

Does it matter to a club more if Pick number 1 is a failure versus their pick number 2 or 3. Any player can be a failure and at the end of the day it is just one player. But part of your measurement of the scale of the failure is what you could have done with that pick as an alternate.

And you see this in draft. Clubs tend to be prepared to take more risks with their lower picks - because the cost of failure is not so great.

 

[TheBalls]

Hey Joffa your team just lost by over 100pts, I guess you are happy with that. As rather than looking for reasons you attack anyone who does.

Perhaps you can give the pre-game next week? But how would you find anything to discuss when you cant criticise others?

Having had a glance at your post history, I think the reason why people don't class you as a Saints supporter is that you aren't actually a Saints supporter.

A Bontempelli fan boy that signed up and started contributing the week of the Bulldogs game and the majority of what you contribute is negative? You're just a troll and I'd put good money on you being a dogs supporter. But if trolling the Saints board adds some kind of value to your life then good luck to you champ.

 

[Rors]

Of course. Not sure the relevance of that though. What we are talking about here is this,

Does it matter to a club more if Pick number 1 is a failure versus their pick number 2 or 3. Any player can be a failure and at the end of the day it is just one player. But part of your measurement of the scale of the failure is what you could have done with that pick as an alternate.

And you see this in draft. Clubs tend to be prepared to take more risks with their lower picks - because the cost of failure is not so great.

I love it. Jack Billings & Paddy McCartin's careers are not even 2 1/2 years old & 1 1/2 years respectively & you're almost calling them failures already because the bloke taken the next pick has shown a tad more at this stage?

Do you heckle comedians 5 minutes into their live stand-up show?
Do you boo the band at a concert after the 2nd song because they havent played your favourite song yet?

Christ, give the kids a chance. If they arent good players in 6-7 years time then feel free to have a crack then, but not now.

 

[TassieSaint]

Posted this in the review thread but more than anything we need 2-3 more elite midfielders, which realistically will require bring in twice that number of talented young players. My concern is that if we rely on the draft for this we run the risk of floundering like Richmond, we need a group coming through at once and we are running out of time. Need to a) nail our top picks this year b) have some luck with our young mids reaching their potential and probably c) bring in an elite free agent. Our spine I'm actually not too worried about.

 

[Rors]

Posted this in the review thread but more than anything we need 2-3 more elite midfielders, which realistically will require bring in twice that number of talented young players. My concern is that if we rely on the draft for this we run the risk of floundering like Richmond, we need a group coming through at once and we are running out of time. Need to a) nail our top picks this year b) have some luck with our young mids reaching their potential and probably c) bring in an elite free agent. Our spine I'm actually not too worried about.

Which elite free agent?

There are none this year & next year its out of Dusty Martin & Nat Fyfe, unless we go for guys in the older bracket 27yr old & up

 

[TassieSaint]

Which elite free agent?

There are none this year & next year its out of Dusty Martin & Nat Fyfe, unless we go for guys in the older bracket 27yr old & up

This is exactly the problem though, I can't see our midfield being elite from drafting only and we can't afford to trade out value, but there's not much coming up FA wise. Rory Sloane would have been very handy.

 

[Ricmel]

I love it. Jack Billings & Paddy McCartin's careers are not even 2 1/2 years old & 1 1/2 years respectively & you're almost calling them failures already because the bloke taken the next pick has shown a tad more at this stage?

Do you heckle comedians 5 minutes into their live stand-up show?
Do you boo the band at a concert after the 2nd song because they havent played your favourite song yet?

Christ, give the kids a chance. If they arent good players in 6-7 years time then feel free to have a crack then, but not now.

Well that is not what I said at all. I was responding to a hypothetical that said once a player is drafted, the pick used has no relevance to the scale or otherwise of success or failure. Nothing to do with Billings and Mccartin if you re-read the thread.

My only comment on Billings and McCartin is will they be judged against Bontimpelli and Petracca in 10 years times? Now I happen to think that in 5 years, Bontimpelli and Petracca will be in amongst the top 5 players in the AFL. So even if Billings and McCarten do not reach those heights it does not by extension mean that they are failures in the same way that the fact that Luke Ball was not Chris Judd does not make him a failure.

 

[gringo2011]

This is exactly the problem though, I can't see our midfield being elite from drafting only and we can't afford to trade out value, but there's not much coming up FA wise. Rory Sloane would have been very handy.

i think at least someone will come on from our existing list and Ross is improving. I think Acres still looks good long term as does Dustan but we ned to have multiple options. Freeman and Gresham still have plenty of upside too but we need to get some quality in somehow to ice the cake. That's why I like the idea of paul Ahern and guys like that, they must feel like they are never going to be getting a go and would be gettable before they are played. GWS are showing some willingness to off load guys outside their immediate plans as they get drunk on their ridiculous entitlements.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I love it. Jack Billings & Paddy McCartin's careers are not even 2 1/2 years old & 1 1/2 years respectively & you're almost calling them failures already because the bloke taken the next pick has shown a tad more at this stage?

Do you heckle comedians 5 minutes into their live stand-up show?
Do you boo the band at a concert after the 2nd song because they havent played your favourite song yet?

Christ, give the kids a chance. If they arent good players in 6-7 years time then feel free to have a crack then, but not now.

This can't be posted enough. There is so much "grass is always greener" stuff going on with our posters comparing our young guys with other young guys. The problem is, using a grass analogy, the lawn has barely started growing yet! Different players develop at different rates. What we do know though is from experience of blokes like BJ is that after about season 4 we can start making a judgement on whether a draft pick was a good one or not.

By all means, comment on what a player is doing well/not well week on week but I think a lot of posters have to stop on the definitive calls on a players career/draft selection after a measly couple of seasons.

 

[Saint12]

I love it. Jack Billings & Paddy McCartin's careers are not even 2 1/2 years old & 1 1/2 years respectively & you're almost calling them failures already because the bloke taken the next pick has shown a tad more at this stage?

Do you heckle comedians 5 minutes into their live stand-up show?
Do you boo the band at a concert after the 2nd song because they havent played your favourite song yet?

Christ, give the kids a chance. If they arent good players in 6-7 years time then feel free to have a crack then, but not now.

This is a forum. All about speculation and opinions

 

[bird_man]

we need a big contested winning, clearance winning mid like a cripps. armitage is what almost 28 and just wont cut it IMO he's far too inconsistent over the course of his career

we need some outside speed and marking, hell even someone like yeo who can seriously take a grab. need some accumulators of the ball who use it well to replace monty eventually

3rd tall def and a resting ruck would be nice but right now the midfield needs some serious talent

Even the most positive Saints fans can see this. It's a good thing we are only half way through our rebuild as we still have plenty of time to add these things to our list.