Opinion What exactly is our game plan?

[OneGreatClub]

We've got the best 3rd quarter record in the comp this year (10-4 @ 141.45%) and we are 6th for 4th quarters (8-6). However our 4th quarter percentage is only 103.47%. So we are clearly struggling to run out games at full pelt.

We've failed to win a game this year when trailing at half time, only North have done the same. However 9 other teams (including the crows) have only won once after trailing at half time - that to me suggests its more of an anomaly for us.

Many AFL statistical analysts (including Max Barry/Squiggle in his recent write up) are inferring that Port's losses against top 8 and also loss rate in close matches is more a run of bad luck rather than anything else - I'd logically have to agree but as it keeps going it's getting harder and harder to not think it's a systemic issue at the club.

We're squiggling in the wrong direction now

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Damn thats a deep question! not pedantic at all. I guess my style of thinking in terms of tactics and strategy is more military than sporting

The way i use the terms, 'game plan' and 'strategy' are interchangeable, in that its the overarching style of football that you play; the tactics are where you adapt for each game;i.e whether its a game at Etihad or at Adelaide Oval or whether you are going up against a team with three tall forwards or only one.

The way i look at strategy/game plans is this quotes from the Art of War:
7. There are not more than five musical notes, yet the combinations of these five give rise to more melodies than can ever be heard. 8. There are not more than five primary colors (blue, yellow, red, white, and black), yet in combination they produce more hues than can ever been seen. 9. There are not more than five cardinal tastes (sour, acrid, salt, sweet, bitter), yet combinations of them yield more flavors than can ever be tasted. 10. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack: the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers.

Haha the Art of War is what I have been thinking about that made me write this thread. ash_78 has a Sun Tzu quote in his signature, but he used to have another one about Strategies and Tactics before he changed it to his current one.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is noise before defeat."

If game plan = strategy, then it makes sense. If game plan is something different than strategies then I'm not sure I understand what it is anymore.

 

[Chrizzt]

We're squiggling in the wrong direction now

Our defence is still holding up very well. We just need to boost our attack. Easier said then done, I know.

I still have a reasonable amount of confidence that we can turn this around and increase our attacking strength while maintaining our defence and really make an impact in September. Time for Kenny to show us what he's made of.

 

[Andre]

Haha the Art of War is what I have been thinking about that made me write this thread. ash_78 has a Sun Tzu quote in his signature, but he used to have another one about Strategies and Tactics before he changed it to his current one.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is noise before defeat."

If game plan = strategy, then it makes. If game plan is something different than strategies then I'm not sure I understand what it is anymore.

If you adopt that as strategy and tactics, then we've the overarching strategy of our press, but fail at the tactics of adjusting forwards to work within it and adjusting during games or for who / where we are playing (except for the old drop a tall never to return when that games rationale has passed). The thing is we come up against sides with strategy AND tactics.

If we are going Sun Tzu, then given our deja vu I'd go with 'Know thy enemy, but not thyself, wallow in defeat every time'. Or as we'd say about never learning from losses - It's Groundhog Day!

Actually the Groundhog Day comparison is unfair, Bill Murray does become a better man from living the same day over and over. Ken isn't becoming a better coach.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Our defence is still holding up very well. We just need to boost our attack. Easier said then done, I know.

I still have a reasonable amount of confidence that we can turn this around and increase our attacking strength while maintaining our defence and really make an impact in September. Time for Kenny to show us what he's made of.

I hope that rather than have a reasonable amount of confidence in it.

The trouble with the last 3 seasons is we can't string a series of 3 or more wins together at the critical part of the season to build that confidence.

Ok in 2015 we won 3 in a row after losing the first two, and then we capitulated and ended up winning the last 4 games of the season, but the season was over and that included GC and GWS who weren't in the finals, the Hawks, a top win, and Freo who sent over their Peel Thunder side.

 

[Eric Blair]

Haha the Art of War is what I have been thinking about that made me write this thread. ash_78 has a Sun Tzu quote in his signature, but he used to have another one about Strategies and Tactics before he changed it to his current one.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is noise before defeat."

If game plan = strategy, then it makes. If game plan is something different than strategies then I'm not sure I understand what it is anymore.

Haha given our slow move into Red china thought Art of War was apt!

If we're struggling to understand, imagine what our coaches box must be like?

Also, is there anyway to keep this thread permanent? I have always been interested in the strategic/tactical side of the game and honestly BigFooty craps over the intellectual desert that is FoxFooty or the media in general.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Haha given our slow move into Red china thought Art of War was apt!

If we're struggling to understand, imagine what our coaches box must be like?

Also, is there anyway to keep this thread permanent? I have always been interested in the strategic/tactical side of the game and honestly BigFooty craps over the intellectual desert that is FoxFooty or the media in general.

Not sure what you mean by permanent but this thread will always be here. I don't think the mods will sticky this at the top of the page. If you want to refer back to it down the track or come back and write more stuff, do a search, ie click on the search box in the right hand corner, make sure you type in game plan not gameplan if you can't remember the exact title of this thread, and then tick the search titles only box and hit search. If you do that, this is what your search will reveal

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/search/114105179/?q=game+plan&o=date&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=28

 

[Chrizzt]

I hope that rather than have a reasonable amount of confidence in it.

The trouble with the last 3 seasons is we can't string a series of 3 or more wins together at the critical part of the season to build that confidence.

Ok in 2015 we won 3 in a row after losing the first two, and then we capitulated and ended up winning the last 4 games of the season, but the season was over and that included GC and GWS who weren't in the finals, the Hawks, a top win, and Freo who sent over their Peel Thunder side.

I think what crosses from hope to mild confidence with me is our consistency this year, though. We are still very stingy defensively against top 8 sides, and are still matching it in terms of contested possessions and clearances (give or take a little). However in our losses the opposition are rebounding from 73% of our inside 50s. That's way too high, obviously. It looks like the coaches think they need to chuck in more small forwards to pressure the oppo more to contain the ball, but it looks more and more like we need better goal kickers up forward to make the most of our i50s.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think what crosses from hope to mild confidence with me is our consistency this year, though. We are still very stingy defensively against top 8 sides, and are still matching it in terms of contested possessions and clearances (give or take a little). However in our losses the opposition are rebounding from 73% of our inside 50s. That's way too high, obviously. It looks like the coaches think they need to chuck in more small forwards to pressure the oppo more to contain the ball, but it looks more and more like we need better goal kickers up forward to make the most of our i50s.

Yeah I want to see changes to the forward line to cross over from hope to confidence. We are doing well in defence and the midfield and generate enough inside 50's.

Our lowest inside 50's this year is 44 against Geelong to their 58 and if we had a bit more brain power, from Charlie's stuff up to the last 2 minutes letting Dangerfield get the ball 3 times, to the set up at that ball up, we would have won.

The only other games we haven't had the ball inside 50 at least 60 times are Sydney 56 v their 61 for a win, Adelaide 58 v their 53 for a medium loss, GWS 51 v their 63 for a medium loss, Essendon 51 v their 67 for a huge loss, and Collingwood 53 v their 47 for a win.

So we have 2 out of 3 parts of our set up going very well. Now Meatloaf might say that ain't bad, but if we want to go deep into September, its gotta be 3 out of 3.

 

[ozph1870]

In your opinion EB why did our 2014 counter attacking style fail so much, that he we had to change it, but the Bulldogs 2016 counter attacking style succeed? Or do you reckon the Bulldogs were more than counter attacking in 2016?

It failed because we kicked 3.9 in the first qtr of the prelim, we then changed to the more chippy, slow methodical rubbish for the start of the 15 season, that style of footy was never going to get anyone anywhere. We worked ourselves out, over thought things, went against all of our strengths and we have never recovered.

 

[simba_]

i'm fairly certain our gameplan is simply 'work harder than the opposition, keep at it and it'll all click more and more'

 

[AlbertonBloke]

It failed because we kicked 3.9 in the first qtr of the prelim, we then changed to the more chippy, slow methodical rubbish for the start of the 15 season, that style of footy was never going to get anyone anywhere. We worked ourselves out, over thought things, went against all of our strengths and we have never recovered.

Yeah it's like we got found out in 14' and that if you take the corridor away we fall in a bit of a hole
So we decided to go around the opposition via the wing and now there's a massive disconnection with our forward structure

 

[Janus]

It involves high forwards and high backs acting as the AFL equivalent of box to box midfielders, running between the arcs to receive the ball from our followers with an inside smash mouth game. The formation moves up and down the ground, compressing when in defence and expanding when in attack - which is why we often target forward pockets to limit the possibility of a fast break rebound on the counter.

The Bulldogs 2016 style worked because they balanced their counter attack run with a contested possession game that was sufficient enough to lock the ball in midfield during defensive phases long enough to reset their defence.

The issue people have is that there were fundamental defensive flaws in the 2014 style (deliberately inviting pressure to hit sides on the rebound is dangerous) but no one on this board really cares about anything but how we look offensively because this board is defensively illiterate.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

It involves high forwards and high backs acting as the AFL equivalent of box to box midfielders, running between the arcs to receive the ball from our followers with an inside smash mouth game. The formation moves up and down the ground, compressing when in defence and expanding when in attack - which is why we often target forward pockets to limit the possibility of a fast break rebound on the counter.

The Bulldogs 2016 style worked because they balanced their counter attack run with a contested possession game that was sufficient enough to lock the ball in midfield during defensive phases long enough to reset their defence.

The issue people have is that there were fundamental defensive flaws in the 2014 style (deliberately inviting pressure to hit sides on the rebound is dangerous) but no one on this board really cares about anything but how we look offensively because this board is defensively illiterate.

Yawn. Everyone else is illiterate because they don't agree with me.

Perhaps we would juat like to see our team be offensively literate too?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Powerade 08]

We play like a peak Ross Lyon Freo team but we have more talent and are less good.

 

[*PAF]

It involves high forwards and high backs acting as the AFL equivalent of box to box midfielders, running between the arcs to receive the ball from our followers with an inside smash mouth game. The formation moves up and down the ground, compressing when in defence and expanding when in attack - which is why we often target forward pockets to limit the possibility of a fast break rebound on the counter.

The Bulldogs 2016 style worked because they balanced their counter attack run with a contested possession game that was sufficient enough to lock the ball in midfield during defensive phases long enough to reset their defence.

The issue people have is that there were fundamental defensive flaws in the 2014 style (deliberately inviting pressure to hit sides on the rebound is dangerous) but no one on this board really cares about anything but how we look offensively because this board is defensively illiterate.

We do not target forward pockets against sides that let us use the corridor.
We end up playing wide against sides that deliberately force us wide. Yes all sides try to do that not all are capable.

The problem we have is that when we do end up wide all of our players are wide or forward of the ball and our midfield is wide open. The defenders that stay back are slowish by AFL standards and get caught out or outnumbered.

Fix that and we have a chance to go all the way. Our defence is strong when given a chance and our attack is lethal. However going wide is more a cause and effect rather than our preferred option.

I wish I had footage of sides setting up a straight line to stop us from using the middle of the ground, but if you wanted to look for it it is there somewhere.

The frustrating part from a coaching perspective is that teams have been doing that to us for a couple of years and we still haven't worked out how to get around it so that we play the game on our terms and not the terms dictated to us by the opposition coach.

 

[charcolechaddy]

A tall lead up forward would help what i think is our gamplan.

We can only dream

 

[Chrizzt]

A tall lead up forward would help what i think is our gamplan.

We can only dream

The thing is that role basically doesn't exist in the modern game.

 

[charcolechaddy]

The thing is that role basically doesn't exist in the modern game.

So its been replaced by the short kick it on my head like under 9's stay at home forward?

 

[Janus]

I care about how many games we win. 2014 has been clearly our best year of the last decade. In 2014 we were tactically doing basically everything that we've been arguing for and you've been arguing against over the last couple of years, bar playing the dedicated second KPF (although in 2014 we had significantly less depth in that position than we do now). Since Ken went all hyper-defensive we've been somewhere in between mediocre and s**t. Maybe there's something in that.

The only reason 2014 worked was because no one was expecting it. The year before we had just scraped into finals and everyone assumed that it was a one hit wonder because of a new coach and we would be going down the ladder for a couple more years.

By the time everyone twigged onto the fact that we were a good side, we were something like two games clear on top of the ladder. Then we fell in a heap when everyone started to keep players back to stifle our run, only to luck out playing a Richmond who was hopeless and had only just scraped into 8th position and an aging Fremantle who had been beaten up the week before.

It was basically the Bulldogs run of 2016 minus the rampant Hawks.

2014 also had 120 interchange rotations, so unless you're going to petition the AFL to increase the rotation cap, why are you even mentioning it? There's a reason why Adelaide is going to do nothing again this year, you know. That sort of style can't be sustained.

 

[PatientMental]

Our game plan?

Get lots of inside 50s. It doesn't matter if the inside 50s are any good, just get lots of them

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

From the early part of my OP last year

http://www.nmfc.com.au/news/2016-01-07/long-bombs-to-snake
The whiteboard contained a list of Ron Barassi’s physical, mental and tactical demands; words to influence his men to win the 1977 grand final replay between Collingwood and North Melbourne. The final sentence, straight down the guts when we can, long bombs to Snake, highlighted the faith Barassi had in his full-forward.

Is that our sort of game plan - long bombs to Dixon, long bombs to Robbie (playing on a bigger bloke), long bombs wide to the boundary line??

I almost rang up Malcolm Blight on Monday night and quoted him this and given he played with Snake Baker, ask if when he watches us play, if that is what he sees the way we deliver the ball inside 50.

I would have also asked him about kicking flat punts like he instructed the crows to kick in their SF win against Sydney in 1998 at the SCG when a torrential down pour came down. I was drenched the 500m I had to walk to the ground when I was dropped off in Paddington when there was no rain. Wettest I've ever been at the footy. We don't play smart football when its wet.

Hinkley was on 5AA tonight and said something that made me think this is our game plan or game strategy for entering the forward 50m. From 3.10 to 4.05.



Bickley - Lets just talk about the scoring situation, you talked about how it has
been down, what's the remedy for that, because you spent a lot of time in the
preseason, we're 17 rounds in and you talked about not being able to improve,
and how can you tweak it and get it better before finals

Hinkley - I think first and foremost Bicks, the games that we've been at our worst
was when we struggled with forward entries and normally we dont, we look back
to the Hawthorn game, our last loss and this loss and both games we really struggled
to get the ball inside our forward 50. That's probably the first place we need to start,
is to make sure we're getting our opportunities inside our forward 50, we understand
that we need, you know, big numbers of forward 50 entries to probably convert as well
as the other sides do, that's just what our DNA is a little bit, we need a few more
opportunities, and when we get ourselves with low entries and we combine that with
our inability to get to the scoreboard the way we would like, we're always going to
get in trouble, so we gotta continue to work hard and make sure we get our
volume of entries in our front half as best we can.

So because we aren't that good at converting, we just get it there and by any method, especially bombing it long to Snake and hope for the best a bit.

I'm both glad to hear what Hinkley said and bloody frustrated by it. Glad to here that they understand we have ratshit conversion rate when we go inside 50, but frustrated that we dont know how to fix it other than, get the volume up, bomb it in there and hope for the best that we convert.

And the bloody Hinkley mantra of work hard, never talks about working smarter along with the hard work, is all over it. Get the volume up and we should do better because our DNA is we're not good at converting our opportunities.

Maybe the coaches are on the ball. We aren't that good. The constant chatter form a large chunk of this board that we are a great side and/or have great talent that is being wasted might be a phurphy! We are a side that their DNA is that we aren't that efficient at kicking goals. That's what the game is all about.

Most important thing is the football, second most is kicking goals, otherwise we wouldn't keep score.

Maybe that's why we have gone defence first. The coaches know we aren't much good at kicking a high score so we try and keep the oppo to a low one and we have to kick a bit more.

The old Clive Lloyd theory that he would say, that if the opposition bowl out the West Indies for 10 runs he was confident his 4 fast bowlers would bowl out the opposition for 9 runs. But LLoyd had enough world class attacking batsmen to make 400 and 500 runs and make them quickly to allow his team to bowl out the opposition twice. I don't think we have the equivalent of those batsmen event though we are trying to develop those 4 scary fast bowlers.

 

[PowerBaz]

From the early part of my OP last year

http://www.nmfc.com.au/news/2016-01-07/long-bombs-to-snake
The whiteboard contained a list of Ron Barassi’s physical, mental and tactical demands; words to influence his men to win the 1977 grand final replay between Collingwood and North Melbourne. The final sentence, straight down the guts when we can, long bombs to Snake, highlighted the faith Barassi had in his full-forward.

Is that our sort of game plan - long bombs to Dixon, long bombs to Robbie (playing on a bigger bloke), long bombs wide to the boundary line??

I almost rang up Malcolm Blight on Monday night and quoted him this and given he played with Snake Baker, ask if when he watches us play, if that is what he sees the way we deliver the ball inside 50.

I would have also asked him about kicking flat punts like he instructed the crows to kick in their SF win against Sydney in 1998 at the SCG when a torrential down pour came down. I was drenched the 500m I had to walk to the ground when I was dropped off in Paddington when there was no rain. Wettest I've ever been at the footy. We don't play smart football when its wet.

Hinkley was on 5AA tonight and said something that made me think this is our game plan or game strategy for entering the forward 50m. From 3.10 to 4.05.



Bickley - Lets just talk about the scoring situation, you talked about how it has
been down, what's the remedy for that, because you spent a lot of time in the
preseason, we're 17 rounds in and you talked about not being able to improve,
and how can you tweak it and get it better before finals

Hinkley - I think first and foremost Bicks, the games that we've been at our worst
was when we struggled with forward entries and normally we dont, we look back
to the Hawthorn game, our last loss and this loss and both games we really struggled
to get the ball inside our forward 50. That's probably the first place we need to start,
is to make sure we're getting our opportunities inside our forward 50, we understand
that we need, you know, big numbers of forward 50 entries to probably convert as well
as the other sides do, that's just what our DNA is a little bit, we need a few more
opportunities, and when we get ourselves with low entries and we combine that with
our inability to get to the scoreboard the way we would like, we're always going to
get in trouble, so we gotta continue to work hard and make sure we get our
volume of entries in our front half as best we can.

So because we aren't that good at converting, we just get it there and by any method, especially bombing it long to Snake and hope for the best a bit.

I'm both glad to hear what Hinkley said and bloody frustrated by it. Glad to here that they understand we have ratshit conversion rate when we go inside 50, but frustrated that we dont know how to fix it other than, get the volume up, bomb it in there and hope for the best that we convert.

And the bloody Hinkley mantra of work hard, never talks about working smarter along with the hard work, is all over it. Get the volume up and we should do better because our DNA is we're not good at converting our opportunities.

Maybe the coaches are on the ball. We aren't that good. The constant chatter form a large chunk of this board that we are a great side and/or have great talent that is being wasted might be a phurphy! We are a side that their DNA is that we aren't that efficient at kicking goals. That's what the game is all about.

Most important thing is the football, second most is kicking goals, otherwise we wouldn't keep score.

Maybe that's why we have gone defence first. The coaches know we aren't much good at kicking a high score so we try and keep the oppo to a low one and we have to kick a bit more.

The old Clive Lloyd theory that he would say, that if the opposition bowl out the West Indies for 10 runs he was confident his 4 fast bowlers would bowl out the opposition for 9 runs. But LLoyd had enough world class attacking batsmen to make 400 and 500 runs and make them quickly to allow his team to bowl out the opposition twice. I don't think we have the equivalent of those batsmen event though we are trying to develop those 4 scary fast bowlers.

Doomed! Play Smarter, put Watts in the forward line, give him space. It’s as if they know we don’t have the skills.

 

[woffy]

[QUOTE="RussellEbertHandball, post: 56848628, member: 15106"......."so we gotta continue to work hard and make sure we get our
volume of entries in our front half as best we can."

.....Maybe the coaches are on the ball. We aren't that good. The constant chatter form a large chunk of this board that we are a great side and/or have great talent that is being wasted might be a phurphy! We are a side that their DNA is that we aren't that efficient at kicking goals. That's what the game is all about.
[/QUOTE]

6 years in, hasn't Ken transferred his DNA to the team?
If we aren't that good at converting, with Robbie, Chad, Dixon & Watts, it's all on Ken.

 

[Janus]

Once again, the egoism of supporters to believe that the only reason why we have to get a high volume of entries into our front half is because there is something wrong with us. It sure couldn't be because opposition defences are much, much better than they were in the days of Barassi and Pagan.

If we were moving the ball faster out of defence, I can promise you three things: 1. Our volume of forward entries would increase. 2. We'd score more goals. 3. We'd concede less goals.

Get some run and carry into the side and some long kicking to take advantage of that run.