What exactly makes other ruckmen better than Nicnat?

[Tas]

I think NN is a very good ruckman, I like his aggression, his ability to win the ball and break open a contest, but... he isn't really in sync with his team, success comes from ball retention. From his 18 games this year he has managed to kick 2 goals, had 63 inside 50s for 7 goal assists, so he is just pumping scud missiles into the forward 50 and the vast majority are just coming back out.

I liked him a lot more when he was the second ruckman when Cox was playing, because he would spend more time up forward and he was in a much more dangerous position. In 2012 he had 543 hitouts from 22 games as the second ruckman, (he is 542 from 18 this year as the main ruckman), but back in 2012 he kicked 24.14 and had 12 goal assists. He really had the offense that complimented his ruckwork.

Richmond has been rolling out a production line of B grade ruckmen who are premiership ruckmen and invested a lot more of their TPP on players who have more of an impact on the scoreboard.

You can get by with a competitive ruckman, as long as you have the structure to compensate, that is you are good at pressuring the opposition midfield and force them to turn the ball over and panic under pressure.

The reality is, whatever Eagles are paying for NN, the bang for buck is low compared to teams who put that investment elsewhere. Teams with the top tier expensive ruckman taking a big chunk of their TPP are all probably sitting on 0 premierships.

 

[mfcrox]

He's been pretty influencial today... living up to that #1 ranking

 

[adammania9]

He's been pretty influencial today... living up to that #1 ranking

Grundy has pantsed him around the ground

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

He's been pretty influencial today... living up to that #1 ranking

Currently highest ranked ruckman on the ground.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I think NN is a very good ruckman, I like his aggression, his ability to win the ball and break open a contest, but... he isn't really in sync with his team, success comes from ball retention. From his 18 games this year he has managed to kick 2 goals, had 63 inside 50s for 7 goal assists, so he is just pumping scud missiles into the forward 50 and the vast majority are just coming back out.

Don't worry about his 7 goal assists, how many scoring chains does he initiate with his hit outs to advantage or his bullocking work in packs, particularly centre clearances?

 

[mfcrox]

Grundy has pantsed him around the ground

... yeah, but it is everything he does with the hitouts and clearances mate. Don't you get it!?!? Grundy mopping him up all around the ground doesn't matter :-/

 

[craffles]

I think it's pretty clear Gawn, Grundy and Naitanui are top 3 rucks and have been for a number of years. Darcy is coming and Goldstein is probably just a little behind the top 3.

The only things that separate who is better between the top 3 is who has the better game/season. Sometimes it'll be 1 of them, other times it'll be another. They are all good and very even overall, with different strengths and weaknesses.

Goldstein is on the same level. Criminally underated career

 

[Captain_Bender]

Wouldn't even be in the top 50 Ruckmen of all time

 

[kaiserchief13]

Grundy has pantsed him around the ground

Grundy probably had a better game but wasn't a huge difference. Like I posted all of Grundy, Gawn and Naitanui are fairly even and can beat each other on any given day.

 

[Rich01]

Both Grundy and Nic Nat elite in their position but clearly taking the piss collecting $1m plus a season for their efforts.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

He's been pretty influencial today... living up to that #1 ranking

Surely a Melbourne fan, of all people, is familiar with the possibility that good players can be part of ordinary teams.

When you finished 17th in 2019, was Max Gawn still the best ruckman in the comp? I guess not. Because you finished 17th. Also, remind me of his influence in the 2018 PF when he got turned over by Big Scotty Lycett and Hard Yards Vardy.

Next.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Both Grundy and Nic Nat elite in their position but clearly taking the piss collection $1m plus a season for their efforts.

You reckon NicNat is on that much? I doubt it.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Wouldn't even be in the top 50 Ruckmen of all time

Show us your list.

 

[Rich01]

You reckon NicNat is on that much? I doubt it.

Geez you’d hope not.

Was well know this was standard on his last contract and all Nisbett had to say on his new one was is ‘We will back him in’.

Wouldn’t think it would be unreasonable for him to be the second highest paid player at the club behind McGovern and ahead of Kelly.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Geez you’d hope not.

Was well know this was standard on his last contract and all Nisbett had to say on his new one was is ‘We will back him in’.

Wouldn’t think it would be unreasonable for him to be the second highest paid player at the club behind McGovern and ahead of Kelly.

Nah, he signed a new deal after his second knee. Greatly reduced, I suspect. Might not even be top 5 at the club these days.

 

[Rich01]

Nah, he signed a new deal after his second knee. Greatly reduced, I suspect. Might not even be top 5 at the club these days.

Yeah who knows.
He’d still be on incredibly decent coin.

 

[Alesana]

I'm tipping Sweet Jesus is the kind of person who is 30-40, living at home, still has a Nic Nat poster up on his wall, and a crusty sock on his bedside table that gets a new coating whenever he gazes up at that Nic Nat poster.

No-one can say a bad word about his crush Nic Nat. If only Nic Nat defended as well as Sweet Jesus defends him.

Do you speak from experience?

 

[fnerd]

Yeah who knows.
He’d still be on incredibly decent coin.

Especially when you consider he’s still getting paid ambassador payments from the AFL

 

[Rich01]

Especially when you consider he’s still getting paid ambassador payments from the AFL

Yup.
McGovern would be well in front.
He’d be at least up there with Kelly, Gaff payments.

Probably impacting more than these three but I’m not sure these guys are performing at their pay scale to provide a decent comparison.

 

[Hank Heavenly]

Grundy has pantsed him around the ground

BuT It DoEsNt MaTtEr...

 

[Noidnadroj]

His impact at stoppages is unmatched. End of story. The rest of this discussion is an exercise in contrivance as folks try to invent some other metric that counts for more than that.

"Yes, NicNat is unmatched at stoppages but... but... but..."

The numbers are here. Your arguments have failed.

Move over Dusty, Bont and Max: There's a new No.1 in town

West Coast star Nic Naitanui has quietly compiled an excellent season, culminating in his rise to the top of the Official AFL Player Ratings

www.afl.com.au

NicNat is excellent around stoppages, that is not in dispute. But you’re being naive if you think a ruckman’s contribution to their team and their on-field fortunes ends there.

It’s like analysing a full-forward and looking at how many goals they’ve kicked and using that as the only important metric. Of course it’s the ‘most’ important …. but there’s also goal assists, score involvements, bringing ball to ground etc…

Does it hurt the Eagles that nicNat can’t play 90% game time ? Yes. Does it hurt the Eagles that he can’t rest forward and provide an aerial threat? Yes. Does it hurt that he’s not a great reader of the play and can’t help our their defence? Yes. It doesn’t mean he’s not a great clearance threat and not in the conversation as the games best ruck. It just means he’s only really a threat in one component of all the elements that make up being a great ruckman.



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[Noidnadroj]

Eagles don't need him forward.

And they are pretty well stacked in defense as well.

Where they are weak is the midfield......so what a huge surprise the coach doesn't waste Nics time and energy going forward or running deep into defense.

Where as other rucks do need to kick goals and help weaker defenses.

Yeah… I’ve watched the Eagles the last 8-weeks and they do look pretty strong in defence and attack…. . They’re also dominating clearances


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[Sweet Jesus]

NicNat is excellent around stoppages, that is not in dispute. But you’re being naive if you think a ruckman’s contribution to their team and their on-field fortunes ends there.

Naivety has nothing to do with it. I'm simply asking, for a ruckman, what is more important than impact at stoppages?

It’s like analysing a full-forward and looking at how many goals they’ve kicked and using that as the only important metric. Of course it’s the ‘most’ important …. but there’s also goal assists, score involvements, bringing ball to ground etc…

I'd say that assessing a FF based on how many goals they kick is actually pretty sensible.

Does anyone criticise Tony Lockett or Jason Dunstall because they didn't have enough loose-ball gets?

If you want to assess a FF based on some other metric, by all means make that case. Equally, if there's some other metric that outweighs NicNat's impact at stoppages, by all means let me know.

Does it hurt the Eagles that nicNat can’t play 90% game time ? Yes. Does it hurt the Eagles that he can’t rest forward and provide an aerial threat? Yes. Does it hurt that he’s not a great reader of the play and can’t help our their defence? Yes. It doesn’t mean he’s not a great clearance threat and not in the conversation as the games best ruck. It just means he’s only really a threat in one component of all the elements that make up being a great ruckman.

This has all been addressed.

If there's some other metric that outweighs NicNat's impact at stoppages, by all means let me know. Until then, I'm not sure what you folks are arguing.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Thanks for the update.

I like how you shift from one failed argument to another.

So because WC's other midfielders aren't doing their jobs, that means NicNat isn't actually the best ruckman?

Walk me through that.

Are you sure you want to introduce the argument that a player is only as good as his team's overall performance? Because that doesn't look pretty for Max Gawn and Melbourne over the past few years.

Was Max Gawn the best ruckman last year when Melbourne finished 9th? He can't have been very good if you guys didn't even play finals, right? What about the year before when you guys were 17th? How big was his impact if you guys finished second-last?

See how that works, champ? See how that's not a good argument for you? Maybe try on something else and see if it fits?

Like I said, there's the premier tap ruckman who is also far and away the best clearance player among ruckmen, making him unmatched at stoppages. Whenever you're ready, let me know what outweighs that. You're yet to make any case along these lines so I'm not sure what you're still doing here.

Yeah, you're definitely done. But if we're being honest, you never really got started.

The premier rucks have different strengths and weaknesses. So given a lineball call, I’ll take the bloke who can play 90% game time over the one who can play 70% every day of the week. A third of the game with my premier player on the pine … I’m not going into a big final with that limitation.


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[Sweet Jesus]

The premier rucks have different strengths and weaknesses. So given a lineball call, I’ll take the bloke who can play 90% game time over the one who can play 70% every day of the week.

But their impact at stoppages isn't a "lineball call". Look at the clearance numbers, for example.

For a ruckman, what is more important than impact at stoppages?

We're talking about the premier tap ruckman who is also far and away the best clearance player among the rucks. What outweighs that?

If there's no sensible answer to that question, it's not clear to me what you guys are arguing. Folks just keep groping around in the dark for something that can be used as a "nah but...". It's becoming silly.