What has happenned?

[Barry Zuckercorn]

We've been blaming skill errors for the last 3 years! Their professional, highly paid, AFL footballers and we are still constantly blaming "skill errors" for losses! WTF do they do at training? Play playstation?

I dont know mate, I'm not in the inner sanctum. I just pay the club every year for the privilege of watching this kind of performance...

 

[audas]

I dont know mate, I'm not in the inner sanctum. I just pay the club every year for the privilege of watching this kind of performance...

If your a masochist maybe the Hell Fire club might be a better bet -

 

[jonoman89]

1) disposal was absolutely DISGUSTING - only exceptions were murphy, gibbs and judd. inside 50 delivery actually had me cringing - under 18s could have done it better. stevens handball while in an open goal square was the most pathetic thing i've seen in years.

2) no heart - our biggest problem, our boys just give up. im sick of it. if these boys dont show some heart consistenly by the end of the year they should be traded/delisted. i don't care what # draft pick they are or how good a kick they are, if you're not in it 100% you don't deserve to put on the jumper.

 

[bonnie4]

I just think we have key players who are still underdone (Judd and Stevens) and a constant rotation of new guys as Ratts continues to experiment.

Our skills in the first quarter were awesome, but how many times have we been good for 20 mins and then get compeltely overhauled? Something happens - we get cocky or the other side steps up to the challenge, but suddenly our skills go begging and we lose a yard.

On the plus side, Waite was sensational, Fisher and Houlihan were useful, and I really like what I see in Hampson, Pfieffer and Edwards. Thornton continues to mature and Betts stepped up tonight.

We should be more positive - the only way is up.

Best post of night stay positive hang in there it will be worth it

 

[Barry Zuckercorn]

If your a masochist maybe the Hell Fire club might be a better bet -

LOL!

I'm SCUM!

 

[audas]

I just think we have key players who are still underdone (Judd and Stevens) and a constant rotation of new guys as Ratts continues to experiment.

Our skills in the first quarter were awesome, but how many times have we been good for 20 mins and then get compeltely overhauled? Something happens - we get cocky or the other side steps up to the challenge, but suddenly our skills go begging and we lose a yard.

On the plus side, Waite was sensational, Fisher and Houlihan were useful, and I really like what I see in Hampson, Pfieffer and Edwards. Thornton continues to mature and Betts stepped up tonight.

We should be more positive - the only way is up.

This is the point mate, I thought that too - how can we be worse off ?


But we are. We were winning 1-1 this time, last year - we have gone backwards. The only teams we beat in teh last three years are Pies, Bombers, Melbourne and Richmond - the only one of that lot we still have a chance against is Melbourne. Everyone else has either improved or is still far too good for us.

We can go backwards, and we are - yes Saints are falling apart as a team, and we are getting closer but that is not becuase we have improved.

I have a bad feeling we have yet to see just how far down the hole we can go !

 

[Dramoth]

I think we are finally realising that it is coming down to the players, I never thought I would say this but they dont want it as much, they dont go the extra mile, they are soft.

There is no one in our team I would put next to any of our greats from the past, imagine fisher next to sticks, scotland and doul, carrazzo and johnno, simpson and harmes, mckay, english, hunter, not just quality players, but showed passion, desperation, and played for the jumper without giving up. This exists in other teams today, no doubt, Brisbane trifecta, geelong, its there no doubt. We simply do not have it - the occasional show of skill, Setanta putting in the odd contribution - but a genuine indifference to the jumper.

The problem that the club is suffering from stems from that age old arguement that we constantly trot out...

Bad list management back in the late 90's... We have no-one who is close to finishing off their careers who actually played with Sticks, McKay, SoS and the rest of the guys. But to answer Audas, I can actually see a lot of our kids playing with those guys and learning from them.

Imagine Carlos learning the art of the late lunge to spoil from someone who learnt it from SoS... Imagine Harts learning from a player who learnt the trade of CHF from Sticks...

But, we constantly got top up players and never invested in youth back then and now, we have no-one who is able to mentor the kids and seriously bring them up to the same level as the player going out.

And unfortunately, we have stuck with a similar style of list management... no-one over the age of 24...

You know what I have to say about that... **** that... if there is a player at around 28-30 years old and he ticks all the boxes we need for the club... get him... why waste the youths in the club by not getting them a senior player to help teach them.

We only have so many coaches who are there to help them train and to play to a game plan. The coachs there are also there to help the kids learn the basic skills but it is teaming up with the senior players who are very experienced at playing the game...

At the same time... the kids in the team learn the passion and desire for the club from the older players.

If Fev wants to go and play as a punter in the NFL... let the w***er go... We need people who are 100% for the club.

At the end of this year, I want to see the club invest in experience over youth... we have enough of that.

We need experience!

 

[Thrawn]

Complete lack of confidence in themselves and each other.

If we're in the position late in the year as we were last year, win at all costs. Getting even *more* high draft picks isn't going to stop this rot... we've developed a losing mentality and it's going to be made worse if we don't. Heh, not like we're going to win too many considering the state of mind of the players. Every time they get a lead, a few goals from the opposition and they mentally collapse... like something is holding them back. They are not backing themselves, that's what concerns me the most... if you can't hold a lead, get it back. Don't think it's all over. Unfortunately some of the players think that.

 

[Bluebear]

The answer to the OP is, very little. Despite the blame game of last year the fact is we have a low skill base and need to continue to recruit players that can hit targets and make good decisions.

Finally some people on here might styart to realise that unless we produce something remarkable, we, on an average day, aren't very good.

I won't bother to bump all the threads from last year that went something like:

PAGAN IS CRAP AND HAS TO GO
PAGAN HAS LOST THE PLAYERS AND HAS TO GO

to which I usually replied:

while Pagan may have his shortcomings the players jobs are to give 100% regardless of whether they like the coach or not.
He doesn't have the cattle to work with.

Pagan is sacked now.

The players are still butchering the ball going into F50 and being piss weak at running.

Whose fault now?
Sack Ratten?

Not to team:
Paul Bower is a defender, and when he plays defence he is coming along nicely.
HE IS NOT AND NEVER WEILL BE A MIDFIELDER WITH THE ABILITY TO PINPOINT A 50M PASS TO THE FORWARD ON THE LEAD.

STOP GIVING HIM THE ****ING BALL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ****ING GROUND AND EXPECT HIM TO HIT THE ****ING TARGET.

 

[GPW1]

Complete lack

If we're in the position late in the year as we were last year, win at all costs. Getting even *more* high draft picks isn't going to stop this rot... we've developed a losing mentality and it's going to be made worse if we don't. Heh, not like we're going to win too many considering the state of mind of the players. Every time they get a lead, a few goals from the opposition and they mentally collapse... like something is holding them back. They are not backing themselves, that's what concerns me the most... if you can't hold a lead, get it back. Don't think it's all over. Unfortunately some of the players think that.

couldnt agree more. bar judd, we dont know how to win a game of footy. yes, skills and decision making are poor, but the mental side of the game kills us. how many times in the past few years have we been leading or right in the game at half time only to be pumped in the 2nd half?

 

[james Dean]

The answer to the OP is, very little. Despite the blame game of last year the fact is we have a low skill base and need to continue to recruit players that can hit targets and make good decisions.

Finally some people on here might styart to realise that unless we produce something remarkable, we, on an average day, aren't very good.

I won't bother to bump all the threads from last year that went something like:

PAGAN IS CRAP AND HAS TO GO
PAGAN HAS LOST THE PLAYERS AND HAS TO GO

to which I usually replied:

while Pagan may have his shortcomings the players jobs are to give 100% regardless of whether they like the coach or not.
He doesn't have the cattle to work with.

Pagan is sacked now.

The players are still butchering the ball going into F50 and being piss weak at running.

Whose fault now?
Sack Ratten?

Not to team:
Paul Bower is a defender, and when he plays defence he is coming along nicely.
HE IS NOT AND NEVER WEILL BE A MIDFIELDER WITH THE ABILITY TO PINPOINT A 50M PASS TO THE FORWARD ON THE LEAD.

STOP GIVING HIM THE ****ING BALL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ****ING GROUND AND EXPECT HIM TO HIT THE ****ING TARGET.

We have no defenders who can hit a target.. Not one.. Thornton attempts to but can't Waite is inconsistent with his kicking Jamo and Setanta I wouldn't back to hit a 20 metre target...Then you see players like McLeod, Gram, Kenelly and Gilbee who rebound and pinpoint a target.. Rebounds from 50 are what start plays if you can get it from D50 to centre square without your target breaking stride 9/10 you will go inside 50.. Our defenders and midfielders are happy to just chip it out take a mark stop the play and allow the opposition defenders to mark up effect the turnover and then run all over us back the other way

 

[serenityNow]

Robert Walls made the comment tonight that the Blues had footballs at every session over the summer and really went all out in improving their ball skills and were now seeing reward for it.

 

[Bluebear]

We have no defenders who can hit a target.. Not one.. Thornton attempts to but can't Waite is inconsistent with his kicking Jamo and Setanta I wouldn't back to hit a 20 metre target...Then you see players like McLeod, Gram, Kenelly and Gilbee who rebound and pinpoint a target.. Rebounds from 50 are what start plays if you can get it from D50 to centre square without your target breaking stride 9/10 you will go inside 50.. Our defenders and midfielders are happy to just chip it out take a mark stop the play and allow the opposition defenders to mark up effect the turnover and then run all over us back the other way

Disagree to some extent. Setanta and Thornton's kicking is generally very good.

Actually it's very sad that Setanta is one of the better kicks we have in our defence.

All round our field kicking was terrible though. Scotland, Stevens and Carrazzo all butchered it, making the defenders mistakes all the more painful.

I agree that you should generate a lot of drive form defence.

But with our midfield we should also win our share of clearances. Not sure what the numbers were but we got smashed out of the middle, and it really wasn't dominant ruck work that did it.

 

[4blues]

Anyone who expected miracles from us this year is brain dead, think of 80% of these guys in 2 years when we are turning 40 point losses into 40 point wins, id rather be a carlton supporter than pretend clubs like the bulldogs and saints who will never win anything, people look up, a fit judd, stevens and a goal kicking fev and results will stArt to go our way.

 

[Rambo Stallone]

Where has it all gone wrong for our club

You can't seriously still blame it on the salary cap business that was 6 seasons ago..

Why do we continually struggle to climb up the ladder

When you lose just about everyone from the list from 2002 and the kids were dud from 2001/2002 and then have no draft picks meaning a shot of the best kids,the club will struggle even with the best player in the county. In Reality it will take nearly a decade to get back to how you were and it seems heading that way it's 2008 and by todays game we will get there by 2010 or even 2011 but i like too see us get there toward the end of the season or next if we could.

 

[The Real Deal]

Forward line is dysfunctional.

We desperately need a CHF who can provide a target and take some pressure off Fevola. We go into the 50 heaps but it just gets swept away time after time. If Fev gets beaten, like he was tonight, we struggle to kick a score. Waite did a great job on Riewoldt - but maybe he needs to play a bit up forward too.

 

[serenityNow]

Anyone who expected miracles from us this year is brain dead, think of 80% of these guys in 2 years when we are turning 40 point losses into 40 point wins, id rather be a carlton supporter than pretend clubs like the bulldogs and saints who will never win anything, people look up, a fit judd, stevens and a goal kicking fev and results will stArt to go our way.

Miracles? Nah mate

Improvement? F*&^%# OATH



apart from a few individuals i see no TEAM improvement thus far in 08
We didnt have Judd and Stevens......or a fit Fev late last year yet we performed better and played with more passion and heart then we have this year.

 

[Thrawn]

He doesn't have the cattle to work with.

This excuse is wearing thin. We've been using it for more than 6 years... surely by now we would be in a better position than say, in 2003? Surely?

On-field results don't indicate that - thanks largely due to player mismanagement and poor recruiting. While Pagan is partially to blame for this, he is not responsible for player fitness, the work ethic of the players and their mindsets. That is ultimately up the players, and whatever fitness/conditioning advisors that are responsible for following them up. I reckon the biggest reason this far is their mentality - they are fragile in the mind. They turn into butter when they lose a contest, or get a few goals kicked against them. They look at the scoreboard and think "not again...", as the same instance was repeated time and time again. There is no doubt that the last few years and all the thrashings have sucked the life and spirit out of some of the players. We can harp on skill and talent level all we want to, but is it any coincidence they dropped when our confidence did?

Our skills were excellent in the first quarter. The players were hard at the ball and backed themselves... what happened? St. Kilda got a sniff and our heads dropped. We started making bad decisions, hesitant on taking them on and had doubts on our own abilities. And until they can fix that mindset ,we are not going to improve... no matter how many high draft picks or talented players we have.

Laziness and zero confidence doesn't mix well with talent.

 

[Blue Bawls]

We have no defenders who can hit a target.. Not one.. Thornton attempts to but can't Waite is inconsistent with his kicking Jamo and Setanta I wouldn't back to hit a 20 metre target...Then you see players like McLeod, Gram, Kenelly and Gilbee who rebound and pinpoint a target.. Rebounds from 50 are what start plays if you can get it from D50 to centre square without your target breaking stride 9/10 you will go inside 50.. Our defenders and midfielders are happy to just chip it out take a mark stop the play and allow the opposition defenders to mark up effect the turnover and then run all over us back the other way

Disagree with your assessment of Setanta and Thornton's kicking. They both did pretty damn well - O'hAilpin 1 clanger and Thornton 3 in 28 posessions. The only backline kicking I saw that made me /facepalm was Scotland's. We just got chopped in the middle and gave away too much height everywhere on the ground, which severely limited our options.

I thought we stopped late to try to build play rather than blaze, because St Kilda had all the momentum.

 

[Thrawn]

When you lose just about everyone from the list from 2002 and the kids were dud from 2001/2002 and then have no draft picks meaning a shot of the best kids,the club will struggle even with the best player in the county. In Reality it will take nearly a decade to get back to how you were and it seems heading that way it's 2008 and by todays game we will get there by 2010 or even 2011 but i like too see us get there toward the end of the season or next if we could.

People are still using the penalties as an excuse?

Partially it was... but not as big as poor recruiting and management. How long has it been since those penalties, 6 years? We picked up Simpson and Fisher in the same draft... and look at Wells? He's almost a waste. If the high draft picks we collected over the past few years didn't make much of a difference so far, what makes you think Well, Goddard and a couple of other picks would? I wouldn't be surprised if they struggled as well had we gotten them, so shit was our player management.

 

[bloodpumpsRnB]

At any stage in the last 5 years have you been through two 90+ point losses in a row? Be grateful.

 

[Thrawn]

At any stage in the last 5 years have you been through two 90+ point losses in a row? Be grateful.

Yeah, but you guys haven't had a disastrous past 6 years as we have. Such things have been happening for most of this decade... at least you guys had a few decent years.

 

[Blue Bawls]

People are still using the penalties as an excuse?

Partially it was... but not as big as poor recruiting and management. How long has it been since those penalties, 6 years? We picked up Simpson and Fisher in the same draft... and look at Wells? He's almost a waste. If the high draft picks we collected over the past few years didn't make much of a difference so far, what makes you think Well, Goddard and a couple of other picks would? I wouldn't be surprised if they struggled as well had we gotten them, so shit was our player management.

I think the penalties had a tremendous impact on the mentality of the club. We went from a confident club expecting to swing back into the finals with a couple of handy replacements, to a team decimated from board level to the Bullants.

All our young players are not being nurtured in a winning environment - it's still a club in turmoil, and Judd is only a small candle in a drafty tunnel. We lost all our mentors and put heavy loads on the Murphys, Waites and Carrazzos of the club, our 'leadership group' is frightfully young - the Simpson was made a captain shows how raw we are.

The "click" we all are hoping for has to come from self belief. We've seen it there at the start of matches many times - we get the jump on the opposition, link up play is breathtaking, young champions at their confident best. But, yes, our mental toughness is poor and that is what was damaged most by the Dark Year.

 

[Bluebear]

This excuse is wearing thin. We've been using it for more than 6 years... surely by now we would be in a better position than say, in 2003? Surely?

My post was indicating what I said in response to the claims re Pagan........hopefully some people are beginning to understand that the playing group has some major problems.

IMO any playing group that decides not to give its all for its coach has some serious character defects. I made this arguement when it was reported, and since confirmed, that Pagan had "lost" the group.

This to me indicates a mentally weak group. If they weren't giving Dennis 100%, how the **** are we to judge his game plan. That was my point last year, as IMO any group of players that chooses when it will "switch on" is doomed to have nights where it is clearly switched off.

Are they giving Ratts 100%?

We are further progressed than 2003, but sadly we still have a too many players who are either not fit (Stevens, Judd, Hadley, Pfeiffer, Hampson, Fisher) surrounded by "B" graders who aren't skillful enough to take up the slcak on a consistent basis (Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell, Betts), who in turn are surrounded by some good kids (Murph and Gibbs) who are good enough but haven't yet got the consitency.

 

[Thrawn]

I think the penalties had a tremendous impact on the mentality of the club. We went from a confident club expecting to swing back into the finals with a couple of handy replacements, to a team decimated from board level to the Bullants.

But the rot started prior to the penalties, in 2002. We were confident after 2001, not in 2002. Player mentality isn't going to give a stuff about draft picks, because the mentality is made and maintained what they do on the field. The draft is a lottery in most cases.

But, yes, our mental toughness is poor and that is what was damaged most by the Dark Year.

But a lot of those players weren't even playing senior football when the penalties came about. What damaged our mentality was continually losing, with a lack of leadership, horrible recruiting and player mismanagement.

Are they giving Ratts 100%?

I have my doubts myself, and this is very concerning. Ratten bled navy blue and showed our true passion on the field throughout his career - he was a player that would rarely let you down, and never give up. He was a hard and honest player. If he can't get them to bleed navy blue... then how can any coach? Voss? McKenna?

Pick either of Pagan/Voss/McKenna/etc - IMO the situation would remain the same. But Pagan did have to go because he lost the players and didn't properly manage the kids.

We are further progressed than 2003, but sadly we still have a too many players who are either not fit (Stevens, Judd, Hadley, Pfeiffer, Hampson, Fisher) surrounded by "B" graders who aren't skillful enough to take up the slcak on a consistent basis (Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell, Betts), who in turn are surrounded by some good kids (Murph and Gibbs) who are good enough but haven't yet got the consitency.

Simpson doesn't deserve to be mentioned alongside them, and maybe even Scotland. IMO they are better players. He's one of our most consistent players in terms of putting in good games.