What has happenned?

[Scruff83]

My post was indicating what I said in response to the claims re Pagan........hopefully some people are beginning to understand that the playing group has some major problems.

IMO any playing group that decides not to give its all for its coach has some serious character defects. I made this arguement when it was reported, and since confirmed, that Pagan had "lost" the group.

This to me indicates a mentally weak group. If they weren't giving Dennis 100%, how the **** are we to judge his game plan. That was my point last year, as IMO any group of players that chooses when it will "switch on" is doomed to have nights where it is clearly switched off.

Are they giving Ratts 100%?

We are further progressed than 2003, but sadly we still have a too many players who are either not fit (Stevens, Judd, Hadley, Pfeiffer, Hampson, Fisher) surrounded by "B" graders who aren't skillful enough to take up the slcak on a consistent basis (Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell, Betts), who in turn are surrounded by some good kids (Murph and Gibbs) who are good enough but haven't yet got the consitency.

No way Scotland and Simpson are in that b grade bracket, as far as our side goes they are at the top of the heap, continually give a contest and know how to use the ball! And more importantly, both really seem to love playing! Both are miles ahead of Carazzo, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell and Betts, miles!!!

Admittedly Scotland was average tonight, but he has made the side look better than it is for ages now!

 

[nutcase888]

posted by thrawn
People are still using the penalties as an excuse?

Partially it was... but not as big as poor recruiting and management. How long has it been since those penalties, 6 years? We picked up Simpson and Fisher in the same draft... and look at Wells? He's almost a waste. If the high draft picks we collected over the past few years didn't make much of a difference so far, what makes you think Well, Goddard and a couple of other picks would? I wouldn't be surprised if they struggled as well had we gotten them, so shit was our player management.

Not an excuse Thrawn a reason. it was 6 years since the penalties were imposed but only 4 years since they were lifted and thanks to the shocking (not poor but absolutely shocking) list management and drafting between 1995 - 2000 meant that that we had to rebuild from scratch. It takes longer than 4 years to rebuild a team from scratch in this day and age. Fact is we are the youngest team in the competition still. So what more are u expecting right now? Many football writers said when the cap penalties were imposed that we would not be back in the finals until 2010. If i'm not mistaken its only 2008. but we went out and got Chris Judd and everyone thought we were back. Others incuded myself stated that we should not get our hopes up and there was still along way to go.but of course many starting talkin finals etc and now people are dissapointed b/c it is clear that we are still far from the finals.

I pleaded patience last year but no one listened. Now after turnin on pagan it seems that the Carlton faithful seem set to turn on the players. mainly i guess b/c they don't wantto criticise favourite sons such as Ratten (not that i'm saying its his fault either) and the skills coach ( i won't say his name). maybe Blues fans should start having a look at themselves. I say spoiled by years of success, they are now finding it very dificult to deal with the hard times.

 

[Bluebear]

No way Scotland and Simpson are in that b grade bracket, as far as our side goes they are at the top of the heap, continually give a contest and know how to use the ball! Both are miles ahead of Carazzo, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell and Betts, miles!!!

Admittedly Scotland was average tonight, but he has made the side look better than it is for ages now!

Normally I'd agree.

Tonight I'm upset.

Simpson - instead of playing on and slamming on on his left, fakes and goes onto his right...................realises he doesn't have a right.............dishes to Carrazzo who is under the pump and slams through another point.

B grade decision and disposal. A grade run and carry.

Scotland I would usually have in the 'A' grade class, but picked the same night as everyone else to forget how to kick the ball........so I'm angry with him.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by BLuebear
My post was indicating what I said in response to the claims re Pagan........hopefully some people are beginning to understand that the playing group has some major problems.

IMO any playing group that decides not to give its all for its coach has some serious character defects. I made this arguement when it was reported, and since confirmed, that Pagan had "lost" the group.

This to me indicates a mentally weak group. If they weren't giving Dennis 100%, how the **** are we to judge his game plan. That was my point last year, as IMO any group of players that chooses when it will "switch on" is doomed to have nights where it is clearly switched off.

Are they giving Ratts 100%?

We are further progressed than 2003, but sadly we still have a too many players who are either not fit (Stevens, Judd, Hadley, Pfeiffer, Hampson, Fisher) surrounded by "B" graders who aren't skillful enough to take up the slcak on a consistent basis (Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland, Bentick, Blackwell, Russell, Betts), who in turn are surrounded by some good kids (Murph and Gibbs) who are good enough but haven't yet got the consitency.

I disagree with this Bluebear. players get coaches sacked or give up on coaches all the time. The Crows got Graham Cornes sacked and also Robert Shaw and probabaly Gary Ayers and they were a far more experienced group than ours. The only problem with our playing group is they are to young. for several years they have been trying to learn the game while having to deal with constant unrealistic expectations of the suporters and media. It is a hopeles situation for them to be in. We have to continue supporting them b/c there is no other option. At first i was hoping that 2009 maybe a realistic time line for us ot be in the finals but now i am thinking 2010. But who knows, it can turn around quickly.

 

[Thrawn]

Not an excuse Thrawn a reason. it was 6 years since the penalties were imposed but only 4 years since they were lifted and thanks to the shocking (not poor but absolutely shocking) list management and drafting between 1995 - 2000 meant that that we had to rebuild from scratch. It takes longer than 4 years to rebuild a team from scratch in this day and age.

Four years is plenty of time. Look at most sides of the competition when they were in the dumps... I think a lot of it has to do with lack of senior support and leadership.

Fact is we are the youngest team in the competition still. So what more are u expecting right now?

The youngest by a hair. There are many young sides in the competition yet they go better than us... I think this youth excuse is overrated. I'm expecting our players to give 100% and show some more heart... that and being "young" aren't mutually exclusive. Add that to the fact that a lot of our mid-core players have already 3 or four years already into them. This is the time where players should step up and take it to the next level, and it is not happening for us.

Many football writers said when the cap penalties were imposed that we would not be back in the finals until 2010. If i'm not mistaken its only 2008.

Football writers? Don't give me something so vague, name names. Give me quotes. Only the trolls and most venomous of Carlton haters would've predicted that. Missing two years of draft picks should set you back two years, and then you include the average time it takes to rebuild and develop... 3 years would be fair. Well I think we're overdue.

maybe Blues fans should start having a look at themselves. I say spoiled by years of success, they are now finding it very dificult to deal with the hard times.

Blues supporters can't make in-club decisions, develop players or recruit them... what some Blues supporters may think is irrelevant to our actual chances or on-field development. The only beef I have are the ones who want to purposely throw games in order to get picks, hoping they'll all of a sudden dominate and get us into the finals ASAP. As if everything will suddenly "click". Well, it's a lot more complicated than that... for one thing we cannot afford to continue embracing losing because it's so damaging for the club's psyche.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by DRamoth
You know what I have to say about that... **** that... if there is a player at around 28-30 years old and he ticks all the boxes we need for the club... get him... why waste the youths in the club by not getting them a senior player to help teach them.

agree with this. like anything its about balance. We suffered so badly due to our top up policies in the 90's that we hav now swung to the other extreme. For example Smorgon a couple of years ago told Pagan he could not recruit anyone over 26 due to our youth policy. How ridiculous is that?

Its' great that there is an emphasis on youth now however u need balance of youth and experience. Unfortunately theres not alot we can really do now days unless u can pry a quality experienced player away from his club. the only other option is to recruit a couple of hacks in the PSD.

Hence we have no other option than to persevere with youth. but right now i would like to see Saddington get a game.

 

[HBF]

Four years is plenty of time. Look at most sides of the competition when they were in the dumps... I think a lot of it has to do with lack of senior support and leadership.

And how much senior support and leadership do we have at the club right now? Not much. Fact is, what nutcase888 said was right on the money, and even though everyone is saying that they are sick and tired of waiting and being patient, we still have to be.

 

[Blue Bawls]

But the rot started prior to the penalties, in 2002. We were confident after 2001, not in 2002. Player mentality isn't going to give a stuff about draft picks, because the mentality is made and maintained what they do on the field. The draft is a lottery in most cases.

I would suggest there would have been plenty going on at club level for a good while before it all went public, but my point is more that the penalties that pretty much shook the club to the foundations have played heavily on the minds of all associated with it. Even us - how much did we cop from every other supporter? How much did it test our faith in the club?

But a lot of those players weren't even playing senior football when the penalties came about. What damaged our mentality was continually losing, with a lack of leadership, horrible recruiting and player mismanagement.

We lost all our good leaders, all our equilibrium and became outcasts. Anyone coming into the club would feel that and be affected by it. I agree that our recruiting in the Pagan years was questionable, but was he trying to repair the mentality of the club with senior players who could mentor our youngsters? Give our recruits true champions to learn from?

Anyway, I see your point is more literal in the sense that a big cash fine and no draft picks isn't suddenly going to make a side crap. I just think those penalties had far greater implications.

 

[bomba4eva]

Fevola was horrible tonight. Fisher was ok considering it was him first game and Betts showed that he has the talent but he needs to produce more consistently. Loved his goal. I distinctly noticed how Carlton have a lack of a good CHF. This problem needs to be rectified urgently. Dont have a great grasp on the entire list but who are the players that can play CHF? Have there been any kids drafted to play this position? Kennedy was let go but I asumed there was another young CHF on the list. Waite looked good at CHB. Full back is also a major worry. Lloyd could really have a field day next week because I cant see O Hailpin or Jamieson keeping him to less than 5 goals.

 

[DonFletch]

Whats the root of the problem tho? Under-skilled players? Lack of accountability? Poor game plan/coaching? These are the questions i ask myself daily and im just about sick of it!

i believe its the 'type' of players carlton play. We have too high a ratio of players in our side who dont win their own footy......compared to another young side in the AFL Hawthorn - who are choc full of players who win their own ball.
So ultimately - we need to re-think the style of players we draft IMO.

 

[Thrawn]

And how much senior support and leadership do we have at the club right now? Not much. Fact is, what nutcase888 said was right on the money, and even though everyone is saying that they are sick and tired of waiting and being patient, we still have to be.

My point was, that we can't keep on looking back and using the draft penalties an an excuse for our current predicament. It happened over half a decade ago and we had ample time to rebuild. No doubt we still have a lot of work to go, and the only thing we can do is hope that our decisions work out in the end and that our players develop properly. And most importantly, continue to support our club and players through thick and thin... those who want to stop supporting us or rip up their memberships because they're "sick of it", poor form.

Patience is a virtue in this, but it's not going to stop supporters from having a bitch-fest.

I would suggest there would have been plenty going on at club level for a good while before it all went public, but my point is more that the penalties that pretty much shook the club to the foundations have played heavily on the minds of all associated with it. Even us - how much did we cop from every other supporter? How much did it test our faith in the club?

Oh, the supporters copped it more than anything. But I don't think that incident alone is the reason for the mentality.

I agree that our recruiting in the Pagan years was questionable, but was he trying to repair the mentality of the club with senior players who could mentor our youngsters? Give our recruits true champions to learn from?

No, he wasn't. But he could've done a better job. In 2003 we still had Ratten, McKay and Kouta playing... and to a lesser extent, Campo. You don't need "true champions" to instill a winning culture, although it helps... you just need the passion and the confidence in yourself, and your team mates.

I just think those penalties had far greater implications.

Fair enough.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by Thrawn
Four years is plenty of time. Look at most sides of the competition when they were in the dumps... I think a lot of it has to do with lack of senior support and leadership.

I disagree Thrawn. As i said we were starting from scratch. when the cap penalties were imposed we had come off a 16th place finish. not a premiership season or even 7th or 8th but 16th. then we found out we had no top end draft picks for two years . the guys from the 2005 draft are around 20-21, from 2006 19-20 and 2007 18-19. these are the guys we are rebuilding with and u expect what from them at this point in their careers? i do agree with the second statement in that post, an unfortunate consequence of the 90's list management.

posted by Thrawn
The youngest by a hair. There are many young sides in the competition yet they go better than us... I think this youth excuse is overrated. I'm expecting our players to give 100% and show some more heart... that and being "young" aren't mutually exclusive. Add that to the fact that a lot of our mid-core players have already 3 or four years already into them. This is the time where players should step up and take it to the next level, and it is not happening for us.

well i'm glad, it means are group are starting to get older. Still the youngest though. what young sides in the comp go better than us? name one and then lets compare there veteran group to ours and see if there is any comparison?

Football writers? Don't give me something so vague, name names. Give me quotes. Only the trolls and most venomous of Carlton haters would've predicted that. Missing two years of draft picks should set you back two years, and then you include the average time it takes to rebuild and develop... 3 years would be fair. Well I think we're overdue.

Geez thrawn i didn't write them down. I do hav a life u know. Ok one was definetly Robert Walls. I remember he said it very clearly on talkin footy or some similar show. there were others. 3 years to rebuild from scratch through the draft .

posted by Thrawn
Blues supporters can't make in-club decisions, develop players or recruit them... what some Blues supporters may think is irrelevant to our actual chances or on-field development. The only beef I have are the ones who want to purposely throw games in order to get picks, hoping they'll all of a sudden dominate and get us into the finals ASAP. As if everything will suddenly "click". Well, it's a lot more complicated than that... for one thing we cannot afford to continue embracing losing because it's so damaging for the club's psyche.

yes but they can influence the club through their attitudes. The fans our the club, at least its meant to be like that. I'm sure the attitude off the fans helped to get Pagan sacked and likewise they knew hiring Ratten would be a winner and get membership up.

thrawn you are a very well respected poster on BF and rightly so. I think maybe at the moment you are just a bit emotional after a another tough loss. i recommend u go to sleep early and when wake up u will probably be seeing things a bit more clearly.

everything is ok with the playing group. By 2010 we will be in the finals. you want $100 on it?

 

[Rambo Stallone]

Four years is plenty of time. Look at most sides of the competition when they were in the dumps... I think a lot of it has to do with lack of senior support and leadership.



The youngest by a hair. There are many young sides in the competition yet they go better than us... I think this youth excuse is overrated. I'm expecting our players to give 100% and show some more heart... that and being "young" aren't mutually exclusive. Add that to the fact that a lot of our mid-core players have already 3 or four years already into them. This is the time where players should step up and take it to the next level, and it is not happening for us.



Football writers? Don't give me something so vague, name names. Give me quotes. Only the trolls and most venomous of Carlton haters would've predicted that. Missing two years of draft picks should set you back two years, and then you include the average time it takes to rebuild and develop... 3 years would be fair. Well I think we're overdue.



Blues supporters can't make in-club decisions, develop players or recruit them... what some Blues supporters may think is irrelevant to our actual chances or on-field development. The only beef I have are the ones who want to purposely throw games in order to get picks, hoping they'll all of a sudden dominate and get us into the finals ASAP. As if everything will suddenly "click". Well, it's a lot more complicated than that... for one thing we cannot afford to continue embracing losing because it's so damaging for the club's psyche.

4 years is correct,but in Carlton case we lost several players in the first 2 years and the players recruited before 2003 didn't make it,guys like Sporn,Livingston,Davies,Campbell,Prendergast,Beasy should have been playing their best now,but are all gone. You add another 4 years,making it 8 years the very least,thats 2010 if you going from 2002.

 

[Il Naso De Gastev]

Comes down to hard work... we do not work hard enough for each other and expect that near enough is good enough. Anyone ever heard the phrase "the harder you work, the luckier you get"??

Finger pointed squarely at you Nick Stevens.... LAZY LAZY LAZY!!!!

Hopefully the Judd factor will drum this into a few of our guys. It will take time.

 

[bloodpumpsRnB]

Yeah, but you guys haven't had a disastrous past 6 years as we have. Such things have been happening for most of this decade... at least you guys had a few decent years.

Decent? 2004, out first round. 2005 out first round. 2006 out second round. And doesn't look like any sort of success is coming our way soon.

 

[Thrawn]

these are the guys we are rebuilding with and u expect what from them at this point in their careers?

More passion for the jumper and a better work ethic. Even if we lose, that's all I ask.

well i'm glad, it means are group are starting to get older. Still the youngest though. what young sides in the comp go better than us? name one and then lets compare there veteran group to ours and see if there is any comparison?

Collingwood and Hawthorn, to give you a couple of examples.

Geez thrawn i didn't write them down. I do hav a life u know. Ok one was definetly Robert Walls. I remember he said it very clearly on talkin footy or some similar show. there were others. 3 years to rebuild from scratch through the draft .

Wouldn't put too much stock into what Walls has to say. Yes, three years. Not several. You also have to take into account quite a few of these players were the core of our 2000-2001 sides... so it's not exactly from scratch, but is was pretty close.

yes but they can influence the club through their attitudes. The fans our the club, at least its meant to be like that. I'm sure the attitude off the fans helped to get Pagan sacked and likewise they knew hiring Ratten would be a winner and get membership up.

But ultimately Pagan was sacked due to his poor performance. Supporters influence, yes... but they don't make the key on field decisions.

thrawn you are a very well respected poster on BF and rightly so. I think maybe at the moment you are just a bit emotional after a another tough loss. i recommend u go to sleep early and when wake up u will probably be seeing things a bit more clearly.

You're being condescending here, and I don't like people who act like condescending twats. My thoughts on the matter are clear, and from the heart.

everything is ok with the playing group.

No, it's not.

By 2010 we will be in the finals. you want $100 on it?

Maybe we will... hell, maybe next year if we're lucky. I don't gamble on the internet.

 

[Thrawn]

Decent? 2004, out first round. 2005 out first round. 2006 out second round. And doesn't look like any sort of success is coming our way soon.

I'd rather make the finals than stay in the bottom four... hell, some of us even think our 2004 was "decent". At least you made them, and considering where we finished in the past 6 years, making the finals would be "good work".

 

[mediumsizered]

Football writers? Don't give me something so vague, name names. Give me quotes. Only the trolls and most venomous of Carlton haters would've predicted that. Missing two years of draft picks should set you back two years, and then you include the average time it takes to rebuild and develop... 3 years would be fair. Well I think we're overdue.

Gerard Healy stated on 3AW on the day of the 2002 National Draft, the day our draft penalties were announced, that it would take Carlton 10 years to get back to being successful, based on the state of our playing list at the time. Robert Walls made a similar call. At the time I thought they were both way off the mark, but I guess they are starting to look like very good judges now.

 

[Thrawn]

Gerard Healy stated on 3AW on the day of the 2002 National Draft, the day our draft penalties were announced, that it would take Carlton 10 years to get back to being successful, based on the state of our playing list at the time. Robert Walls made a similar call. At the time I thought they were both way off the mark, but I guess they are starting to look like very good judges now.

Yeah, I thought 10 years was a bit rich. Then again, most of us didn't predict the player mismanagement and/or recruiting during the Pagan era... which is IMO the bigger reason why it's taking even longer to get back on track. Not to mention the mindsets of the players.

 

[DynamoUltra]

What happened to the arrogance?

 

[Silvagnis]

What happened to the arrogance?

It's been passed onto the flogs who barrack for and run the Whorethorn Football Club.

 

[Philhawk]

It's been passed onto the flogs who barrack for and run the Whorethorn Football Club.

Defensive much? It thought it was actually meant to be a compliment.

The Carlton of old had an good, proud, arrogance about it. It just hasn't been there over the past few years.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by Thrawn
More passion for the jumper and a better work ethic. Even if we lose, that's all I ask.

Can u please tell me one player who u think is not trying their best? Sometimes even if a player looks like they have lost heart there can be other reasons, lack of confidence, fitness etc

posted by Thrawn
Collingwood and Hawthorn, to give you a couple of examples.

both have a significantly more expereinced core group than what we do.

posted by Thrawn
Wouldn't put too much stock into what Walls has to say. Yes, three years. Not several. You also have to take into account quite a few of these players were the core of our 2000-2001 sides... so it's not exactly from scratch, but is was pretty close.

thats an easy comeback by you. u asked me to give u a name and i gave u one. i could say any other journalist and u could come back and say that i wouldn't put much stock in what they say. There were others that said it and it looks like their assessments were spot on.

posted by Thrawn
But ultimately Pagan was sacked due to his poor performance. Supporters influence, yes... but they don't make the key on field decisions.

No however the members are essential to the financial stability of the club. board members are dependent on their support to get re-elected. when the people running the club sense that the members are restless they become panicky and are far more likely to make bad decisions. It would really help alot of the suporters would actually support the club.

posted by Thrawn
You're being condescending here, and I don't like people who act like condescending twats. My thoughts on the matter are clear, and from the heart.

your right, my apologies. i'm just sick and tired of the scapegoating. last year it was that Pagan was a poor coach. this year its the players aren't trying hard enough and lack heart pffffffffftttttttt. what are we going to do? sack the players?

posted by Thrawn
No, it's not.

It is thrawn, seriously it is. the only thing they are lacking is experience and confidence. it's hard for them to keep gettin off the mat when they are continually being knocked down. they need our support.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Calm down - we just played a 3 side!!

 

[nutcase888]

posted by Philhawk
The Carlton of old had an good, proud, arrogance about it. It just hasn't been there over the past few years.

how on earth can it be when u are finishing on the botom or near it .

the arrogance will be back. once the rebuilding is done this will all just seem like a bad nightmare