What has happenned?

[GPW1]

For example Smorgon a couple of years ago told Pagan he could not recruit anyone over 26 due to our youth policy. How ridiculous is that?

to be fair, it did prevent pagan from picking up ty zantuck

just out of interest (i dont have and cant be bothered looking up the stats) i wouldve thought most of 'pagans duds', (kenna deluca, banno, teague, digby, mclaran, ackland and so on) would of been under 26 when we picked them up.

 

[thylacine60]

It was actually under 24.

 

[btdg]

Purely and simply, our club is rotten at the core, and has been for a long time. We've had a corporate mentality, one where you cheat, lie, steal, and look after your mates. That works in the corporate world where money is all that matters. Up until the late 80s, when football was unregulated, that worked well. But modern football is an artificial, idealistic environment, created to reward hard work and integrity. As a result, we've been behind the 8-ball since the late 80s.

Our rotten corporate culture manifests itself in 4 main ways. Firstly, like business-men tracking their share price, we care only about the short-term and the quick fix. Not for us the hard yards of player development, its always about how we're jumping straight back up the ladder. All through the 90s, we ignored the draft process, traded picks for senior players past their primes, and cast ourselves as the team that never rebuilds. The best teams nowadays constantly rebuild. Collingwood, for example, are in the top 4, less than a kick off the grand final, yet still play more rookies than we do. We wasted the primes of a great group of players through this mentality, failed to prepare for the future, then faced the consequences.

Our second issue is the 'jobs for the mates' problem. Corporate boards work on the principle that if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Don't question the received wisdom, just go with the flow and collect your big paycheck. The rotten-ness of the Elliot years went right throughout the club. The salary cap rorts didn't just involve Elliot, but MUST have included the coaching staff, senior players (who got paid), the whole board, the executives who signed off accounts. Yet when the gig was up, we paid out on... the players who blew the whistle. Elliot lost his job because of our ladder position, not the rorts. All his henchmen - including guys like Kernahan, Ratten, and supporters like Pratt - still remain. In our search for a new coach, we hired 'one of the boys' rather than consulting widely. We appointed him caretaker, then appointed him senior coach after he lost 7 straight games. The salary cap rorts came because we were paying senior players well over market value. Our previous coach was headhunted without due process being followed, the one before that was annointed successor to the previous coach. Basically, 3 straight coaches were appointed without due process being followed, yet we wonder why we are constantly outcoached... And we still overpay players and hold onto players past their primes, past when they have trade value, because they are part of the in group.

The third main issue is the corporate mentality that rules are meant to be broken, bent, stretched and twisted, right up until you get caught. Its not just the salary cap rorts that persisted over many years. We tank to cheat the draft system. We manipulated the Judd situation to our advantage. We cheated the system to sign up Irish players. Other clubs play the game. We play our own game. But it simply doesn't work. As before, sport is artificially contrived to be fair, and cheaters simply don't prosper. The energy that goes into cheating is energy that isn't being spent elsewhere - like scouting players, developing their skills, developing a winning club culture. Its a disgrace that this club is 0-26 in games that would cost us a priority pick over the past 3 years, an absolute disgrace to the jumper and to the sport. More importantly, its a disgrace to the players who played their last games in matches we didn't even want to win, guys who gave their all in trying circumstances.

Finally, we share the corporate mentality of the 'great man' syndrome. Corporations constantly sing the praises of their CEO, or their marketing guru, or whoever, to justify their exorbitant salary and to artifically inflate the share price as idiots listen unquestioningly. If they are in trouble, they bring in a new boss with a big name, anything to pump up that share price. But football clubs don't work on share price, artificially pumping up the bubble doesn't work. All that matters is performance on the field, and you can't hide that performance when the time comes. A single great man doesn't make the difference. Throughout our 20 years of mediocrity, we've invested in this. First it was Elliot, the man we thought was a god, even as he acted like a buffoon and embarrassed us all. Then it was Koutoufides. Then Dennis Pagan, who we paid a fortune to desert his previous club, then hamstrung by not letting him do things his way. Then it was Dick Pratt. Now its Chris Judd. Or Aisake O'Hailpin, or Murphy, or whatever. We constantly forget that football is a team game, that one man will never turn things around, and that winning teams have something unidentifiable that binds them together. When you proclaim the next 'great man', you instantly kill that connection of them to the rest of the group.

For Carlton to rebuild, we have to break the shackles of our clubs culture. We need to get rid of the arrogance, the belief that what worked in the 80s will work again now. Get rid of Kernahan, Ratten, and all the other patsies of the corporate era. They were great servants, but in another time, one that has passed us by. Cleanse the culture thoroughly. Bring back a reserves team and make players earn their spots. Be ruthless in trading - get rid of the players whose attitude holds us back, the Fevola types who don't put in the hard yards. Play every game on its merits, even if it costs us an extra draft pick when we win a late-season game. Get some pride back in playing for the club and following in the footsteps of the guys who went before/

But somehow, I doubt that will happen. Corporations are really about power, and I don't see ours handing that power back in a hurry. So we'll lose our last 10 games again this year to manipulate the draft, we'll keep our boys club mentality, we'll cheat and lie and do everything but face the fact that our culture is rotten. And in 5 years time we'll still be wondering why we can't win games of football.

 

[thylacine60]

Brave work, well written and mostly hard to argue with. Prepare to have it the most posted piece outside the Carlton Board.

 

[nutcase888]

btgd has well articulated what i have been thinking for along time. I don't agree with every statement but alot of that is spot on. Great post

 

[bibi01]

our main problem is the players

we have too many players who are not good enough to be starting 22 afl footballers

we also don't have any true leaders and we can't get the basics of football right for 4 consecutive quarters

we struggle to hit targets 20 meters away, we struggle score goals from 35 meter set shots

we have tried numerous game plans but a game plan only works when the players execute it correctly.
we are onto our 3rd coach and the same problems still exist.

 

[Bluebear]

our main problem is the players

we have too many players who are not good enough to be starting 22 afl footballers

we also don't have any true leaders and we can't get the basics of football right for 4 consecutive quarters

we struggle to hit targets 20 meters away, we struggle score goals from 35 meter set shots

we have tried numerous game plans but a game plan only works when the players execute it correctly.
we are onto our 3rd coach and the same problems still exist.

Some good points here.

 

[audas]

Purely and simply, our club is rotten at the core, and has been for a long time. We've had a corporate mentality, one where you cheat, lie, steal, and look after your mates. That works in the corporate world where money is all that matters. Up until the late 80s, when football was unregulated, that worked well. But modern football is an artificial, idealistic environment, created to reward hard work and integrity. As a result, we've been behind the 8-ball since the late 80s.

Our rotten corporate culture manifests itself in 4 main ways. Firstly, like business-men tracking their share price, we care only about the short-term and the quick fix. Not for us the hard yards of player development, its always about how we're jumping straight back up the ladder. All through the 90s, we ignored the draft process, traded picks for senior players past their primes, and cast ourselves as the team that never rebuilds. The best teams nowadays constantly rebuild. Collingwood, for example, are in the top 4, less than a kick off the grand final, yet still play more rookies than we do. We wasted the primes of a great group of players through this mentality, failed to prepare for the future, then faced the consequences.

Our second issue is the 'jobs for the mates' problem. Corporate boards work on the principle that if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Don't question the received wisdom, just go with the flow and collect your big paycheck. The rotten-ness of the Elliot years went right throughout the club. The salary cap rorts didn't just involve Elliot, but MUST have included the coaching staff, senior players (who got paid), the whole board, the executives who signed off accounts. Yet when the gig was up, we paid out on... the players who blew the whistle. Elliot lost his job because of our ladder position, not the rorts. All his henchmen - including guys like Kernahan, Ratten, and supporters like Pratt - still remain. In our search for a new coach, we hired 'one of the boys' rather than consulting widely. We appointed him caretaker, then appointed him senior coach after he lost 7 straight games. The salary cap rorts came because we were paying senior players well over market value. Our previous coach was headhunted without due process being followed, the one before that was annointed successor to the previous coach. Basically, 3 straight coaches were appointed without due process being followed, yet we wonder why we are constantly outcoached... And we still overpay players and hold onto players past their primes, past when they have trade value, because they are part of the in group.

The third main issue is the corporate mentality that rules are meant to be broken, bent, stretched and twisted, right up until you get caught. Its not just the salary cap rorts that persisted over many years. We tank to cheat the draft system. We manipulated the Judd situation to our advantage. We cheated the system to sign up Irish players. Other clubs play the game. We play our own game. But it simply doesn't work. As before, sport is artificially contrived to be fair, and cheaters simply don't prosper. The energy that goes into cheating is energy that isn't being spent elsewhere - like scouting players, developing their skills, developing a winning club culture. Its a disgrace that this club is 0-26 in games that would cost us a priority pick over the past 3 years, an absolute disgrace to the jumper and to the sport. More importantly, its a disgrace to the players who played their last games in matches we didn't even want to win, guys who gave their all in trying circumstances.

Finally, we share the corporate mentality of the 'great man' syndrome. Corporations constantly sing the praises of their CEO, or their marketing guru, or whoever, to justify their exorbitant salary and to artifically inflate the share price as idiots listen unquestioningly. If they are in trouble, they bring in a new boss with a big name, anything to pump up that share price. But football clubs don't work on share price, artificially pumping up the bubble doesn't work. All that matters is performance on the field, and you can't hide that performance when the time comes. A single great man doesn't make the difference. Throughout our 20 years of mediocrity, we've invested in this. First it was Elliot, the man we thought was a god, even as he acted like a buffoon and embarrassed us all. Then it was Koutoufides. Then Dennis Pagan, who we paid a fortune to desert his previous club, then hamstrung by not letting him do things his way. Then it was Dick Pratt. Now its Chris Judd. Or Aisake O'Hailpin, or Murphy, or whatever. We constantly forget that football is a team game, that one man will never turn things around, and that winning teams have something unidentifiable that binds them together. When you proclaim the next 'great man', you instantly kill that connection of them to the rest of the group.

For Carlton to rebuild, we have to break the shackles of our clubs culture. We need to get rid of the arrogance, the belief that what worked in the 80s will work again now. Get rid of Kernahan, Ratten, and all the other patsies of the corporate era. They were great servants, but in another time, one that has passed us by. Cleanse the culture thoroughly. Bring back a reserves team and make players earn their spots. Be ruthless in trading - get rid of the players whose attitude holds us back, the Fevola types who don't put in the hard yards. Play every game on its merits, even if it costs us an extra draft pick when we win a late-season game. Get some pride back in playing for the club and following in the footsteps of the guys who went before/

But somehow, I doubt that will happen. Corporations are really about power, and I don't see ours handing that power back in a hurry. So we'll lose our last 10 games again this year to manipulate the draft, we'll keep our boys club mentality, we'll cheat and lie and do everything but face the fact that our culture is rotten. And in 5 years time we'll still be wondering why we can't win games of football.

Sorry but this post is really confused.
People have personal issues, clichéd stereotypes learnt in childhood or teenage angst which manifest itself through directed anxiety. You are taking all kinds of completely unrelated issues and tenuously tying them to "corporate culture". It is not simply confused, and spiteful but generally ignorant.

Lets get a few things straight :-

It was not Carlton Culture during the 80s and 90s it was THE CULTURE - it actually started in the 70's with North Melbourne - we were simply the most successful over that period of time in doing it. Further we were acting in accordance with the rules for the most part (so don't go writing off one of our most successful periods in our history because you don't understand the reality) - we were also according to Wayne Jackson - made an example of.

Further looking after your mates is what FOOTBALL is all about - most sporting cultures in Australia are around looking after each other, your community, etc. Further Carlton should have won in 94 by all accounts and 2000 was a cracker year - so basically your entire theory just doesn't stack up - at all. The carlton football club was NOT all about money - it is just a stupid, stupid thing to say. It comes directly from not really understanding the situation in particular and having an ephemeral understanding of politics , capital etc. Quite simply Carlton weren't after money, they were after Flags, and we are the most successful club in the land because of it. Simple. We did not come out of it Rich, we came out of it winners.....I am concerned about the corporate culture which is rampant more than anyone on this board - I'm writing a thesis on it right now - but your summation is simply incorrect.

Again - still on the first paragraph - the AFL does not reward hard work and integrity - that idealistic claptrap - filibuster and pure hubris - the AFL structure rewards failure - that is how an equalisation system works - it restrains the best and rewards the worst to maintain an even keel.

We have not been behind the 8 ball since the 80's , we have been behind since the 2002.


The second paragraph then puts forward the idea that we did not go through the rebuilding phase required - ignoring the draft. Well this was actually in the LATE 90's early 2000 ok - secondly it has nothing to do with corporate culture. Corporates are constantly looking out for the best - thats what they do - head hunt - this was simply a case of poor vision and list management. Further Collingwood have been absolute CRAP for 50 years - one flag. Second they are the absolute epitome of corporate culture - and finally they are the masters at tanking for draft picks. Really poor examples for a really poor argument.

As far as playing youth and talent is concerned we have the youngest team in the AFL - pure and simple.

Your next paragraph is just a free for all of accusations by some jealous extreme left wing zealot. Its a disgrace - you don't know squat - as for the players they said it was a deal between themselves and Elliot. So no, it is not some vast cabal of conspiratorial corporates greedily destroying usurping Carlton for their own venal means. Further, Kernahan is a GREAT CLUB MAN - it is actually a really cras thing to write. Ratten had sweet FA to do with this - you are just mud slinging of the worst kind.

Further Pagan was one of the MOST successful coaches of his time - he was amazing. You simply do not know what you are talking about in regard to Pagan. His record is phenomenal. Ratten been official coach for only TWO GAMES - he was care taker before that - leave of it. Then you have Wayne Brittain who was a scape goat. Wayne Brittain was the assistant coach for four years and was regarding as an AWESOME tactician. However it was under PAGAN and BRITTAIN that our worst period occurred - neither of them being Jobs for the Boys (neither were Carlton players) and both were considered excellent choices - simply it was not the corporate culture, nor the lack of due process, but we were due to start our rebuilding process right when we got slammed with the most severe penalties ever incurred by any club (and let face it there have been plenty of transgressions ), compounded by poor drafting decisions.

This rant of a paragraph then asserts that our poor performances are based solely on the poor coaching ability of Ratten (2 games) and Pagan - worst playing list in the history of the game)....this simply ignores a myriad of mitigating factors in order to perpetuate your lame duck argument - yet within the SAME sentence you now accuse of hanging on to player well beyond their prime only becuase they are part of the inner sanctum ?!!! WHO !?? Fevola has been given a final warning and the only other player we have in that category is Houlihan (not part of the "inner sanctum") and Stevens. Every one else is too young to have a fckn beer mate.

You then assign Carlton to being some rogue criminal status - while other clubs are model AFL citizens - you need to stop listeneing to the bullshit sprayed around by other supporters mate. Heres a tip - Its not true that all Coolingwood Cupporters are feral bogans with no teeth - we just say that becuase is its funny -, its not true that all richmond supporters are no hoper junkies from the union with fat ugly wives , and its not true that all melbourne supporters drive range rovers - its melbourne - these are cliches which are bandied about to promote rivalry etc. All clubs are corporate- thats where the money and sponsorship comes from. What do think Lexus is - an African Potato ? The Carlton Coporate Cliché comes from Menzies coming down to the ground and handing out pound notes to all the players after a win - Menzies and the Liberal party was founded by Potter which was a stock broking firm - hence the label. OK?!!!!!!

This paragraph asserts that we were cheating, rorting, and manipulated the system to get Judd and other Setanta, Aisake, Shield - how so ? Seriously if you are going to come up with what can only be described as bullshit like that then let hear it !! There is no doubt WHAT_SO_EVER that the only person around here who is manipulating the facts, bendin gthe truth and distorting reality to get their own way is you. I have never read such a disingenous load of trumped up claptrap in years. Do you know Anne Coulter, Paul Bremmer or Wolfowitz as your cherry picked, stove piped distorted have truths sound eerily similar to the rantings of a disaffected liberal. If you know what I mean.

Your last paragraph simply loses the plot. I can not help but think you have seen or read the Corporation (Joel Bakan) Shock Doctrine (Klein, Chomsky, Pilger, Palast, Korten, Sirota, Raulston Saul and others) - it is maniacal ranting. (Not to take away from what these knowledgeable writers are saying - as I agree wholeheartedly - however for the narrowly read they are deeply unblancing as they are one sided diatribes tying to right the ledger in an ignorant world).

Carlton has had an incredibly successful 20 years mate. This is why we are finding it so hard to deal with failure. Whether you like it or not- the simple FACT OF THE MATTER is that ELLIOT was a Carlton man through and through, he BLED for the team. He was trying his guts out. AS much as I despise the bloke for where he left us - what he did and where he as trying to go will be forever remembered. I simply do not think you understand how hard it is to win a flag - yet lone three or four in 20 years leading up the debacle of 2001.

There are teams out there with none, one or two. Pies have had one in fifty years.

What have you got against kouta - I take it it is his fault now ? Did we pay him too much money ? Do you think we should be run like a socialist experiment and all be on equal pay while we have a clusterfck around the hammer a sickle ? Chris Judd ? Murphy- or AISAKE ??!! Get a grip mate.

you have ranted and raved about coprate culture, about us doing whatever we can to secure Judd- then you urge us to be ruthless in our trading, to purge ourselves of faithfull and loyal club men ? How corporate is it to simply fire your faithful servants when things get tough. Absolute idiot. Further more who was it won our Flags for us in our most successful period. Barrassi, Nichols, Jezza - were we a corporate culture back then ? Did it hurt us that we poached someone ? What about Parkin - a ring in ? Corporate culture in the past twenty years ? 3 flags ? Get rid of FEVOLA ??!!! Ill tell you what Richo throws bigger dummy spits in his career than Fevola, but the Richmond supporters are men enough to back there own rather than stab them in the back like some whiney little lefty ignoramus -

You can be as upset as the next bloke about our position. However as I have been trying to point , along with others, it is time we stopped laying the blame at RIDICULOUS places which is exactly what this thread does.

Further I can assure you that this Corporate Culture is something I research study and know about, and the drivel you have written in your post is beyond clichéd , urban myth, recycled, stereotyped garbage - you are simply sprouting what you have learnt from your peers without really understanding what you are talking about.

This is the worst post i have read on Bigfooty and it is depressing to think what will be made of it by other supporters. Seriously misinformed, misjudged, misguided, ignorant and on the whole driven by anxiety, teenage angst, myopic considerations, and in general it is hubris and claptrap.

I will also add that it is not corporate culture which troubles you padawan- it is the culture of greed. There are plenty of corporations out there who do great things, there are guide lines which are there to create better corporate culture - there is accountability, sustainability, and all manner of things which guide these institutions - it is when corporations are driven by the wrong ideas that they become bad, let me illustrate : People murder, it is not there fore reasonable to associate murder as the defining factor of human culture. Are you referring perhaps to Global Nationals, globalisation, sweat shops, decreased wages, environmental degradation ? Well these things have as much to do with the governments and citizens as they do corporations. Or are you talking about people making money and being successful - something you really hate - something you fell jealous and despise as you are envious others success ? Are you a disaffected liberal who thinks the world needs to be cleansed by fire ? You don't want us to be club men, you don't want us to strive to win at all costs, you want us to be just like other clubs ----you don't know what you want, and you certainly don't know what you are talking about.

Read a book.

 

[XXX KINGS]

Talk about a dressing down!

 

[audas]

Talk about a dressing down!

Cop enough lies, aspersion, insinuations, and general garbage from other clubs- and thats fine, even when it si from one of our own its fine - but right now we are in a dark place and we need to get out of it, and pointing to the solution as being what was put forward is only part of the problem.

It is not our coprorate culture, it is not bad coaches, poor selections, the AFL penalties, facilities, our backline etc - it is US. Carlton, the team, the club the players.

They need go out and play 4 quaters of good solid dedicated footy with no one to blame for a loss or congratute for a win but themselves.

Judd has mentioend that we are moving towards players taking responsibility and that is where the solution and problem lies - not with some wild eyed scape goat called "corporate culture"- the act of finding new things to balme - or continuing down the pathway of blaming everything but ourselves IS THE PROBLEM INCARNATE - no more excuses - take responsibility - we are the problem - the players are where the buck stops.

 

[XXX KINGS]

Cop enough lies, aspersion, insinuations, and general garbage from other clubs- and thats fine, even when it si from one of our own its fine - but right now we are in a dark place and we need to get out of it, and pointing to the solution as being what was put forward is only part of the problem.

It is not our coprorate culture, it is not bad coaches, poor selections, the AFL penalties, facilities, our backline etc - it is US. Carlton, the team, the club the players.

They need go out and play 4 quaters of good solid dedicated footy with no one to blame for a loss or congratute for a win but themselves.

Judd has mentioend that we are moving towards players taking responsibility and that is where the solution and problem lies - not with some wild eyed scape goat called "corporate culture"- the act of finding new things to balme - or continuing down the pathway of blaming everything but ourselves IS THE PROBLEM INCARNATE - no more excuses - take responsibility - we are the problem - the players are where the buck stops.

FWIW I agree with you entirely, no more excuses any more.

6 years of us sitting around picking our noses is enough.

 

[btdg]

Sorry but this post is really confused.
People have personal issues, clichéd stereotypes learnt in childhood or teenage angst which manifest itself through directed anxiety. You are taking all kinds of completely unrelated issues and tenuously tying them to "corporate culture". It is not simply confused, and spiteful but generally ignorant.

Lets get a few things straight :-

It was not Carlton Culture during the 80s and 90s it was THE CULTURE - it actually started in the 70's with North Melbourne - we were simply the most successful over that period of time in doing it. Further we were acting in accordance with the rules for the most part (so don't go writing off one of our most successful periods in our history because you don't understand the reality) - we were also according to Wayne Jackson - made an example of.

Further looking after your mates is what FOOTBALL is all about - most sporting cultures in Australia are around looking after each other, your community, etc. Further Carlton should have won in 94 by all accounts and 2000 was a cracker year - so basically your entire theory just doesn't stack up - at all. The carlton football club was NOT all about money - it is just a stupid, stupid thing to say. It comes directly from not really understanding the situation in particular and having an ephemeral understanding of politics , capital etc. Quite simply Carlton weren't after money, they were after Flags, and we are the most successful club in the land because of it. Simple. We did not come out of it Rich, we came out of it winners.....I am concerned about the corporate culture which is rampant more than anyone on this board - I'm writing a thesis on it right now - but your summation is simply incorrect.

Again - still on the first paragraph - the AFL does not reward hard work and integrity - that idealistic claptrap - filibuster and pure hubris - the AFL structure rewards failure - that is how an equalisation system works - it restrains the best and rewards the worst to maintain an even keel.

We have not been behind the 8 ball since the 80's , we have been behind since the 2002.


The second paragraph then puts forward the idea that we did not go through the rebuilding phase required - ignoring the draft. Well this was actually in the LATE 90's early 2000 ok - secondly it has nothing to do with corporate culture. Corporates are constantly looking out for the best - thats what they do - head hunt - this was simply a case of poor vision and list management. Further Collingwood have been absolute CRAP for 50 years - one flag. Second they are the absolute epitome of corporate culture - and finally they are the masters at tanking for draft picks. Really poor examples for a really poor argument.

As far as playing youth and talent is concerned we have the youngest team in the AFL - pure and simple.

Your next paragraph is just a free for all of accusations by some jealous extreme left wing zealot. Its a disgrace - you don't know squat - as for the players they said it was a deal between themselves and Elliot. So no, it is not some vast cabal of conspiratorial corporates greedily destroying usurping Carlton for their own venal means. Further, Kernahan is a GREAT CLUB MAN - it is actually a really cras thing to write. Ratten had sweet FA to do with this - you are just mud slinging of the worst kind.

Further Pagan was one of the MOST successful coaches of his time - he was amazing. You simply do not know what you are talking about in regard to Pagan. His record is phenomenal. Ratten been official coach for only TWO GAMES - he was care taker before that - leave of it. Then you have Wayne Brittain who was a scape goat. Wayne Brittain was the assistant coach for four years and was regarding as an AWESOME tactician. However it was under PAGAN and BRITTAIN that our worst period occurred - neither of them being Jobs for the Boys (neither were Carlton players) and both were considered excellent choices - simply it was not the corporate culture, nor the lack of due process, but we were due to start our rebuilding process right when we got slammed with the most severe penalties ever incurred by any club (and let face it there have been plenty of transgressions ), compounded by poor drafting decisions.

This rant of a paragraph then asserts that our poor performances are based solely on the poor coaching ability of Ratten (2 games) and Pagan - worst playing list in the history of the game)....this simply ignores a myriad of mitigating factors in order to perpetuate your lame duck argument - yet within the SAME sentence you now accuse of hanging on to player well beyond their prime only becuase they are part of the inner sanctum ?!!! WHO !?? Fevola has been given a final warning and the only other player we have in that category is Houlihan (not part of the "inner sanctum") and Stevens. Every one else is too young to have a fckn beer mate.

You then assign Carlton to being some rogue criminal status - while other clubs are model AFL citizens - you need to stop listeneing to the bullshit sprayed around by other supporters mate. Heres a tip - Its not true that all Coolingwood Cupporters are feral bogans with no teeth - we just say that becuase is its funny -, its not true that all richmond supporters are no hoper junkies from the union with fat ugly wives , and its not true that all melbourne supporters drive range rovers - its melbourne - these are cliches which are bandied about to promote rivalry etc. All clubs are corporate- thats where the money and sponsorship comes from. What do think Lexus is - an African Potato ? The Carlton Coporate Cliché comes from Menzies coming down to the ground and handing out pound notes to all the players after a win - Menzies and the Liberal party was founded by Potter which was a stock broking firm - hence the label. OK?!!!!!!

This paragraph asserts that we were cheating, rorting, and manipulated the system to get Judd and other Setanta, Aisake, Shield - how so ? Seriously if you are going to come up with what can only be described as bullshit like that then let hear it !! There is no doubt WHAT_SO_EVER that the only person around here who is manipulating the facts, bendin gthe truth and distorting reality to get their own way is you. I have never read such a disingenous load of trumped up claptrap in years. Do you know Anne Coulter, Paul Bremmer or Wolfowitz as your cherry picked, stove piped distorted have truths sound eerily similar to the rantings of a disaffected liberal. If you know what I mean.

Your last paragraph simply loses the plot. I can not help but think you have seen or read the Corporation (Joel Bakan) Shock Doctrine (Klein, Chomsky, Pilger, Palast, Korten, Sirota, Raulston Saul and others) - it is maniacal ranting. (Not to take away from what these knowledgeable writers are saying - as I agree wholeheartedly - however for the narrowly read they are deeply unblancing as they are one sided diatribes tying to right the ledger in an ignorant world).

Carlton has had an incredibly successful 20 years mate. This is why we are finding it so hard to deal with failure. Whether you like it or not- the simple FACT OF THE MATTER is that ELLIOT was a Carlton man through and through, he BLED for the team. He was trying his guts out. AS much as I despise the bloke for where he left us - what he did and where he as trying to go will be forever remembered. I simply do not think you understand how hard it is to win a flag - yet lone three or four in 20 years leading up the debacle of 2001.

There are teams out there with none, one or two. Pies have had one in fifty years.

What have you got against kouta - I take it it is his fault now ? Did we pay him too much money ? Do you think we should be run like a socialist experiment and all be on equal pay while we have a clusterfck around the hammer a sickle ? Chris Judd ? Murphy- or AISAKE ??!! Get a grip mate.

you have ranted and raved about coprate culture, about us doing whatever we can to secure Judd- then you urge us to be ruthless in our trading, to purge ourselves of faithfull and loyal club men ? How corporate is it to simply fire your faithful servants when things get tough. Absolute idiot. Further more who was it won our Flags for us in our most successful period. Barrassi, Nichols, Jezza - were we a corporate culture back then ? Did it hurt us that we poached someone ? What about Parkin - a ring in ? Corporate culture in the past twenty years ? 3 flags ? Get rid of FEVOLA ??!!! Ill tell you what Richo throws bigger dummy spits in his career than Fevola, but the Richmond supporters are men enough to back there own rather than stab them in the back like some whiney little lefty ignoramus -

You can be as upset as the next bloke about our position. However as I have been trying to point , along with others, it is time we stopped laying the blame at RIDICULOUS places which is exactly what this thread does.

Further I can assure you that this Corporate Culture is something I research study and know about, and the drivel you have written in your post is beyond clichéd , urban myth, recycled, stereotyped garbage - you are simply sprouting what you have learnt from your peers without really understanding what you are talking about.

This is the worst post i have read on Bigfooty and it is depressing to think what will be made of it by other supporters. Seriously misinformed, misjudged, misguided, ignorant and on the whole driven by anxiety, teenage angst, myopic considerations, and in general it is hubris and claptrap.

I will also add that it is not corporate culture which troubles you padawan- it is the culture of greed. There are plenty of corporations out there who do great things, there are guide lines which are there to create better corporate culture - there is accountability, sustainability, and all manner of things which guide these institutions - it is when corporations are driven by the wrong ideas that they become bad, let me illustrate : People murder, it is not there fore reasonable to associate murder as the defining factor of human culture. Are you referring perhaps to Global Nationals, globalisation, sweat shops, decreased wages, environmental degradation ? Well these things have as much to do with the governments and citizens as they do corporations. Or are you talking about people making money and being successful - something you really hate - something you fell jealous and despise as you are envious others success ? Are you a disaffected liberal who thinks the world needs to be cleansed by fire ? You don't want us to be club men, you don't want us to strive to win at all costs, you want us to be just like other clubs ----you don't know what you want, and you certainly don't know what you are talking about.

Read a book.

Continual ad hominem attacks don't make what you are saying true. I agree that the corporate mentality was THE culture of football in the 80s, and that we were the best at it. At the time, football had no draft or salary cap - the biggest, baddest fish took all, just like in the corporate world. It was equality on the field, but not on the field, and we took full advantage. The problem was, that became entrenched as our culture. When the game went national, the playing field was levelled out, other clubs adapted. We didn't. You talk about Carlton being the most successful team in history - that simply isn't true. Sure, we won 16 premierships, but those were in a different era, a different time. In the modern era of football, we've won 2, and those were largely the legacy of our prior success. We've also won 3 wooden spoons, and finished in the bottom 2 in 5 of the last 6 seasons. Something clearly is wrong, and it didn't start in 2002.

When you talk about socialism in football - its not such a bad concept to grasp. sport in general is predicated on the idea that everyone starts equal, and plays on their merits. Its a team sport, and that means you need to balance the team. You can't have a corporate pay structure, with the best getting grossly overpaid, because of the salary cpa, and the need to find 22 good players each week. Anyway, its a metaphor, not a perfect analogy, but I think its one that works pretty well to explain why we suck, and continue to suck.

I used recent examples before, but I could go back further. We ignored the draft right from the start. In the late 80s, we cleaned up by picking the best pieces from all around the country - Kernahan, Bradley, Dorotich, etc. That set us us for the next decade, really helped to hide our poor drafting over that entire period. The premiership team in 1987 was put together prior to the draft period. Our 1995 premiership team featured only 4 players intially drafted by the club: McKay, Sexton, Whitehead, Camporeale. The rest either were in place prior to 1987, came through the reserves system (ie Koutoufides, Ratten, Brown), or in particular, were 'headhunted' from other clubs (Spalding, Hogg, Pearce, Clape, Madden, Manton, Rice, Spalding, Williams). Of course, most teams also ignored the draft initially, but the period from 1996-2002 is what killed us. Our poor drafting in that period is pretty well documented, so I don't think I need to run through our list of woes again now...

But back to that 'corporate culture', and the 4 woes I identified. The point I was making with that culture is that is was something that WAS successful for a time. Those factors are clearly identifiable right through the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. In both periods, whenever we were struggling, we chased 'great men'; Barassi, Kernahan and Williams being the prime examples. We didn't cheat to get the interstate players we did in the late 80s, but we certainly played the system to the absolute limit. And in those days, giving jobs to your mates worked pretty well, because all clubs did it; and we had more money and the best players to start with, so it usually worked out ok.

The point I was making with coaching changes and the 'jobs for the boys' mentality was the lack of due process. Brittain was annointed Parkin's successor, and the job handed over to him. He may be a scapegoat now, but he was certainly involved in the processes that led to his dismissal. Pagan was brought in by Elliot, just another great man. His style was completely wrong for us initially; did we run due dilligence in our coaching search and just stuff up the selection, or did we just throw money at the problem to make it go away? As for Ratten, he came in with very little applicable coaching experience, performed terribly late last year as a caretaker (including some horrific coaching errors in the last few rounds), yet was still appointed.

Back on the salary cap scandals, you are completely mistaken if you believe that was entirely between the president and the players involved. Clubs don't, or shouldn't operate like that. Someone has to sign the cheques, sign off on the accounts. Players have managers and agents who learn about these things. Players talk to their team-mates. Sure, Elliot was a dictator, but we let him get that way. Then, as soon as the shit hit the fan, we pretended it was all him. But we let his cronies hang around, never really cleaned shop, and now there's a push to get him back involved.

As for where we are now - my argument remains the same. Ever since we hit the bottom in '02, we've been looking to play the system, to find the quick fix. First it was Pagan and a whole stack of recycled players. Then it was deliberately losing games to add extra draft picks. Then it was manipulating the Judd situation. Now its stretching the rules to pay amateur Irish players. Instead of doing the hard yards, rebuilding the club and preparing for the future, we're still doing it the old way. But how long do we sit back and watch it happen for?

Anyway, I'd prefer it if you came back with some reasonable argument, instead of just ad hominem bullshit.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by Audus
Cop enough lies, aspersion, insinuations, and general garbage from other clubs- and thats fine, even when it si from one of our own its fine - but right now we are in a dark place and we need to get out of it, and pointing to the solution as being what was put forward is only part of the problem.

It is not our coprorate culture, it is not bad coaches, poor selections, the AFL penalties, facilities, our backline etc - it is US. Carlton, the team, the club the players.

They need go out and play 4 quaters of good solid dedicated footy with no one to blame for a loss or congratute for a win but themselves.

Judd has mentioend that we are moving towards players taking responsibility and that is where the solution and problem lies - not with some wild eyed scape goat called "corporate culture"- the act of finding new things to balme - or continuing down the pathway of blaming everything but ourselves IS THE PROBLEM INCARNATE - no more excuses - take responsibility - we are the problem - the players are where the buck stops.

I am all for looking forward to find solutions as opposed to focusing on past mistakes. But if the players are going to be this years scapegoats then i am going to defend them as strongly as I did pagan. Whether or not u think corporate culture was a contributing factor to our demise (I certainly do) it is because of terrible mistakes in the past that we are in the shit we are now.

These players have been drafted into a club that is an absolute mess and have been burdened with trying to achieve the clubs expectations which are nothing short of complete success. Even in the first half of last year when we were clearly showign improvement we had posters coming on this board saying it was not good enough and we should be doing better etc.

I have no doubt these guys are trying their guts out. Fact is we are still one of the worst lists in the comp. People after the saints game were saying their is no pride in the jumper. yes the first two games this year have been ordinary. Personally i see more heart in these guys however when they come storming back from large deficits (like against Port at AAMI last year) than i do in our 93, 94 all star teams that succumbed so meekly in the GF in (93) and then in straight sets in 94. Did those guys have pride in the jumper? how about Essendon and Melbourne on the weekend? Did they have pride in their jumper? Just because you lose and sometimes lose by alot does not mean you have no pride in the jumper and that u are not giving it your all.

What so many Blues supporters cannot accept is the magnitude of the rebuilding task that was put before the club. People say no more excuses etc etc. but it is pointless to expect any more from these guys than what they are capable. As long as they are trying i am satisfied. The reason for our poor performance today rest squarely upon the shoulders of the management and coaches from the previous era. Its not an excuse its a fact.

 

[Bluebear]

Is this the shortest post in this thread?

 

[Brighton_Diggins]

Is this the shortest post in this thread?

...no

 

[Pamam]

...no

 

[Thrawn]

Can u please tell me one player who u think is not trying their best?

I'll give you two:

Nick Stevens.
Ryan Houlihan.

This week I will be reviewing the game again for the buddy draft, would you like me to highlight some precise examples of some players not giving their all? I can certainly provide you with a few.

And these are only two senior players, quite scary when you think about it. There were many instances in the game where they couldn't be stuffed manning their opponents, or not providing the necessary shepards. The basic things.

Sometimes even if a player looks like they have lost heart there can be other reasons, lack of confidence, fitness etc

And sometimes they just don't have the spirit.

both have a significantly more expereinced core group than what we do.

By a factor of how many games? You would've thought our senior players should've stepped up by now and show greater leadership... but that quality is sadly lacking.

i could say any other journalist and u could come back and say that i wouldn't put much stock in what they say.

No, not really. We know how fickle Walls is... and how he comes up with the most absurd things.

It is thrawn, seriously it is.

When the players drop their heads after the opposition get a sniff, and don't believe in themselves or in their team mates... then something is wrong.

the only thing they are lacking is experience and confidence. it's hard for them to keep gettin off the mat when they are continually being knocked down. they need our support.

It's a mind thing ultimately. You can't tell me everything is fine when you have a team who cannot hold on to leads or finish out games. Or drop their heads when their lead is pegged back to a couple of goals. If everything were fine, we would've won against the Tigers and might have even beaten the Saints considering they didn't play too well either.

This isn't a question about support, because most people here will cheer them on regardless. It is about identifying the core problem and fixing it... and let me tell you, it will not be fixed with extra high draft picks.

 

[nutcase888]

ok thrawn fair enough. i respect your opinion. but i wonder then do u hav any idea what has happened from this time last year b/c if i remember correctly Stevens was absolutely pumped at the start of last year and was very influential in two of our first 3 wins. why is he all of a sudden not doing the basic things as you put it?

maybe we really do need to bring back Dennis, christ we haven't won since he left. Anyhow i'm not sure what exactly u are saying. do u think we just lack confidence or do u think there are some guys who genuinely don't give a stuff? if it is a lack of confidence or spirit i think that is alot diffrent to lack of effort as some posters seem to think. maybe we need to get a decent shrink into the club. in any event maybe on the night they were lacking spirit, maybe on the nite Stevens was carying some injury or had flu or to dam puffed out after his years lay off.

The point is none of us really know. anyhow if u review the essendon and Melbourne games last week i'm sure u will also find instances were players didn't do the basic things and maybe appeared ot be giving up. Is there something wrong with their playing groups also? What about the 94 Carlton team that just gave up in that semi final to geelong? did they lack pride and spirit also? the point is that all players and playing groups go through periods where they are down and probably feel bad about themselves as footballers and also feeling like whatever they do is hopeless. this is psychology however, it doesn't mean there is no pride in the jumper as some posters have been saying.

 

[Thrawn]

why is he all of a sudden not doing the basic things as you put it?

Because he was lazy. He may have started on fire last year, but this is now, not then. Granted, he has come back of a neck injury so he might be a little hesistant going into situations where he head may be hit but it's not an excuse to do simple things such as manning up on your opponent or providing a shepard for a team mate.

maybe we really do need to bring back Dennis

Umm... how about no?

do u think we just lack confidence or do u think there are some guys who genuinely don't give a stuff?

Both.

maybe we need to get a decent shrink into the club. in any event maybe on the night they were lacking spirit, maybe on the nite Stevens was carying some injury or had flu or to dam puffed out after his years lay off.

You don't need to be 100% fit to make a shepard, or watch your opponent. I think we should stop making excuses for the players and actually address the problems because it's gone on for far too long. There have been no reports or signs of any illnesses or injury, so rather than create hypotheticals, we should be looking at the facts.

Is there something wrong with their playing groups also? What about the 94 Carlton team that just gave up in that semi final to geelong? did they lack pride and spirit also?

You can't compare the two because this lack of spirit has been an ongoing problem for years, rather than in an individual game where the players simply did not concentrate enough nor could execute their abilities significantly enough to win. At least that playing group showed a whole lot of it throughout the whole year, even when losing... that said, the list was far superior mentally and skilfully. The 94 Carlton side included names like Kernahan, Silvagni, McKay, Dean, Williams, etc. Most of the players on that list were mentally tough.

the point is that all players and playing groups go through periods where they are down and probably feel bad about themselves as footballers and also feeling like whatever they do is hopeless.

That is true, but over a period of years ?

this is psychology however, it doesn't mean there is no pride in the jumper as some posters have been saying.

Players would work a lot harder and not be so lazy if there was more pride in the jumper. And that is a fact.

 

[Rambo Stallone]

We've been blaming skill errors for the last 3 years! Their professional, highly paid, AFL footballers and we are still constantly blaming "skill errors" for losses! WTF do they do at training? Play playstation?

maybe they go on Facebook,myspace lol.They will be alright in a few years.You got to remember 2003-2004 was wasted years. It's only been 2005,2006 and 2007 3 years of rebuilding from scratch as we lost most of the dud young players from 2001-2004 and senior players. In Reality it's Murphy,Gibbs,Walker,Simpson,Fisher,Kreuser with Judd,Thornton,Houilhan,Fevola,Stevens and Waite and a bunch of unknowns and the Rest who are not that good or have poor skills,hardly a top 8 side.

 

[True Bluebagger]

I have just spent the last 20 minutes or so reading all of the posts on this thread detail.

In summary IMHO some posters are right on the money with their opinions, while others have a great passion and love for the CFC, but obviously have never played the game at any level and don't have much of any basic understanding of the game of football and have a totally unrealistic ideas of what this team can achieve at this point of time.

For example before the season started I couldn't believe how much chat there was on the Carlton board and the main board of how we had a good chance of making the finals. Some realists were on the ball when they posted that if we could make it out of the bottom 4 this year, we would be doing a great job.

Some other posters said it was great that we had our arrogance back. From a footballing point of view, I can assure you arrogance means very little if you can't back it with performance and as a supporter you look incredibly stupid and naive if your team can't back up your big mouth. One poster on here was spruiking that we would beat the Tigers by 10 goals on the trot. Can anyone please tell me when this team won their last game by 10 goals, because I sure can't.


Problems

1. From where I sit the problem I see the one of the biggest problems with the playing group is that there is not enough experienced on field leaders showing the way and mentoring the young players. Why is this so? Obviously the salary cap penalties have robbed us of 4 or 5 24-26 year old players that would be approaching 100 games or more. Just think how much quicker Jamison, Bower, O'Halpin, Austin and co would develop if that had a Silvangi, Dean or McKay like player on their shoulder showing them where to run or how to cut the angles. Our best defender Thorton is too busy looking after his own man to be mentoring these rookies.

2. Poor recruiting by the club prior to the salary cap penalities have robbed us of a core group of maybe 4 to 6 130-160 game players, that would be showing us the way now and helping develop the younger players. We also paid the penalty for poor trading decisions of draft picks for "has beens" who were well past their best with Mick McGuane on the top of the list.

Also for example, while not a great player, we traded away one of our high draft picks in Kris Massie who has managed to get a game fairly consistently with a regular final's team in the Crows. He would be still be in our starting 18, showing the younger defensive players the way over the past 6 years. Not having some solid grunt like Massie players on our list is one of our major problems. Its not always the stars that win you the games, but good tough solid players who can apply some physical defensive pressure.

3. I have been watching Carlton for over 40 years I have never seen a team turn the ball over like this playing group, even when they are clear of their opponents. While I appreciate the game has got so much quicker, and there is a need to get boot or hand to the ball quickly, it would appear that there is not enough talk amongst players. Is this a lack of skill or confidence among the players. Me thinks not, as again its a lack of senior experienced players on each line directing the younger ones, telling them to steady and take their time.

4. While I believe recruiting Judd was an obvious positive move, he is struggling with fitness and Fev. is also struggling to even get a kick let alone kicking a bag of goals, which leaves the team virtually devoid of any match winners. You are not going to win any games if you don't have players who can take a contested pack mark or kick a goal when the game is in the balance or the team needs to rally.

5. As Carlton has such a young and inexperienced playing list we as supporters don't have any other choice but to be patient and wait for these kids to mature. When they all fill our physically and become more experienced, I am sure it will bred more confidence and belief in themselves and their ability and winning games will come this.


Maybe we have been spoilt by so much flag success over the years, we have as fans have never learnt to do the hard yards ourselves, but I think our turn will come again. Many supporters have forgotten how Geelong were able to turn it around last year after being labelled for several years in the late 90's and the 00's as the great under achievers. There is lesson for all of us in their success.

 

[nutcase888]

posted by thrawn
You can't compare the two because this lack of spirit has been an ongoing problem for years, rather than in an individual game where the players simply did not concentrate enough nor could execute their abilities significantly enough to win. At least that playing group showed a whole lot of it throughout the whole year, even when losing... that said, the list was far superior mentally and skilfully. The 94 Carlton side included names like Kernahan, Silvagni, McKay, Dean, Williams, etc. Most of the players on that list were mentally tough.

lol thrawn i would love to see you come out each week and play with this spirit and passion playing in a list that has been compared to fitzroys. or are u one of those that thought in the previous years we had enough talent to play finals? try and understand that after a while beating after beating takes its toll physically and mentally. it is a sick feeling to walk on to the football field and no that u are just so hopelessly outmatched and that your only hope is that the oppostion has an off day or u will lose by 100 points.
this is the reality that has been confronting our players. what is happening is completely normally in a side devoid of expereince. as they get older the condifence will come and their performance will improve. all of a sudden the veterans will be seen as hard working and that they do give a stuff. i'm tired of being nice to posters that sprout rubbish. if u think i am being condescending then to bad. i think it is you that need to get a clue if you serously believe that players don't give a stuff or are lazy lol. i have no respect for that opinion.

 

[True Bluebagger]

lol thrawn i would love to see you come out each week and play with this spirit and passion playing in a list that has been compared to fitzroys. or are u one of those that thought in the previous years we had enough talent to play finals? try and understand that after a while beating after beating takes its toll physically and mentally. it is a sick feeling to walk on to the football field and no that u are just so hopelessly outmatched and that your only hope is that the oppostion has an off day or u will lose by 100 points.
this is the reality that has been confronting our players. what is happening is completely normally in a side devoid of expereince. as they get older the condifence will come and their performance will improve. all of a sudden the veterans will be seen as hard working and that they do give a stuff. i'm tired of being nice to posters that sprout rubbish. if u think i am being condescending then to bad. i think it is you that need to get a clue if you serously believe that players don't give a stuff or are lazy lol. i have no respect for that opinion.

Well said nutcase. While all coaches want to their team to play with passion and spirit, I bet they would all say there is no subsitute for ability and experience when it comes to winning games. The present team is trying their best or putting in, contrary to what some posters believe, the harsh reality is that they are not good or experienced enough at the moment. I am confident this will change when all of these young talented developing players have more games under their belts.

Players from the mid 90's such as Kernahan, Silvagni, McKay, Dean, Williams, were all mentally tough and motivated because they had done the hard yards over a long period of time and were all veterans of 150-200 games plus and were mature and physically developed and confident of their own abilities and knew what was required to win. IMHO it is bit unrealistic to compare the present day playing list to these hardnuts.

 

[Thrawn]

]lol thrawn i would love to see you come out each week and play with this spirit and passion playing in a list that has been compared to fitzroys.

Hell yeah, given the chance I would! And I'm sure you would too.

Have you ever played football on any level? The only thing that is stopping you from giving 100% is yourself (with the exception of injury of course).

or are u one of those that thought in the previous years we had enough talent to play finals?

I never said that, stop putting words into my mouth. I've never put forward ridiculous predictions of our chances like some others would.

try and understand that after a while beating after beating takes its toll physically and mentally. it is a sick feeling to walk on to the football field and no that u are just so hopelessly outmatched and that your only hope is that the oppostion has an off day or u will lose by 100 points.

Just another excuse. For many games we made some pretty good leads, only for us to capitulate.... this shows me that they backed themselves and thought they could win. Your reasoning is one of the major problems - the players don't believe they can win once the opposition gets on top... and that is always a bad sign. As I said before, it is a mental thing that must be addressed. If players run out thinking they will get thrashed, then that must be fixed too... otherwise what is the point of playing football if you go out there and think you will lose? It is no excuse for a lack of commitment. It is no excuse to back out of a contest. It is no excuse not to shepard when your team mate has the ball and the opposition is right next to you. It is no excuse to ignore your opponent.

You say there is nothing wrong, yet this mentality and lack of self confidence is like a cancer in the team.

i'm tired of being nice to posters that sprout rubbish. if u think i am being condescending then to bad. i think it is you that need to get a clue if you serously believe that players don't give a stuff or are lazy lol. i have no respect for that opinion.

Oh please, you're being a downright idiot here. And to think I actually supported your reinstatement when you were banned from this board. You have not even addressed my points put fourth... and instead played the man, not the ball.

Some of the players are lazy, and that is a fact. I can cite you many examples during the St. Kilda game, especially from Stevens and Houlihan and once I review the game for the buddy draft, I will point out those instances to you. When you see players not providing the basic shepards, not doing the simplest of team things or looking out for their opponents, or not running to their provided area(s)... it is quite clear. That some of our players aren't even putting a little bit of defensive pressure is a sign of laziness. Now, I named you two players who were the lazy culprits on the weekend... perhaps you can refute that instead of typing bullshit like "you need to get a clue", and further make yourself look like a fool by being a condescending twat?

That you could even compare the mentality of our '94 side to now is one is completely ridiculous. If we had their mental toughness we would be winning games... instead of dropping our tails and running away after the opposition peg a 20 something margin back. Their mindset IMO is the biggest reason why we are struggling... you can have all the talent and skill in the world, but without the confidence and hard work with it, it amounts to nothing.

 

[Thrawn]

The present team is trying their best or putting in, contrary to what some posters believe, the harsh reality is that they are not good or experienced enough at the moment.

How is "not putting your best in" and "not good enough" mutually exclusive? I'd say it is both. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe one of the reasons why we're not good enough is that some of the players don't go at it 100%?

IMHO it is bit unrealistic to compare the present day playing list to these hardnuts.

You're telling me.