Roast WHAT I WANT TO SEE FROM A WELL COACHED PORT SIDE THAT KEN HINKLEY HAS FAILED TO SHOW US

How will Janus twist this?


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Magus

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#76
All the "evidence" is either circumstantial or just opinions. For every piece of evidence that someone claims to have, it's really just emotional rhetoric, based on how they feel about certain players or coaches.

It's like the Ryder/Ladhams debate. There is literally no evidence to suggest that Ladhams is a better forward or ruck than Ryder, because Ryder isn't playing in the SANFL and never has. Could Ladhams be a better ruck/forward? Sure - but the way people talk about him on here is like he's a top ten draft pick and not the rookie listed player we selected him as.

Same with Frampton - I said that Dixon would show you what an AFL key forward does, and even in his first game back from injury after 10 months, he does what Frampton can do on his best day in the SANFL. He even missed two goals he said himself he should have kicked. Imagine what he'd do if he was fully fit.

The real facts are that certain people have an agenda with the list, which is basically for Hinkley to do what Primus did in 2011/12 and blood kids so that when he's gone at the end of his contract, the next coach won't have to develop them. And even if he did that, he wouldn't get any credit from these people for developing those players - players that he's had since 2013. Howard, Houston, Byrne-Jones, Lienert - they are all products of the development of Ken Hinkley.

What they fail to understand is that **** policy of throwing kids in regardless is exactly the reason why players like O'Shea, Moore, Pittard, Young, Butcher etc failed to do anything of substance in the AFL. If you're gifting games to kids regardless and not making them earn it on merit (merit being actually doing what is asked by the coaches, not racking up stats to try and impress that way), then there is no reward for actually playing properly.

As long as the players know why they were dropped, and are clear in the method, they can work on their game. That's how a player becomes better. Not some arbitrary 'everyone gets a gold star' ********. If Frampton wasn't dropped against St Kilda, it would have been a mistake after his game against Hawthorn - which some people have tried to dress up as being a kid developing but was, in fact, just a poor performance from a kid who fell into bad habits against Gold Coast in the second half.

The same thing happened with Marshall. Started off okay, fell into a slump against Carlton where he wasn't even seen near the ball, got dropped, came back for the West Coast game and played an excellent team oriented game, then fell into a slump again where he couldn't even be bothered contesting for the ball against Adelaide, and got dropped. Again, falling into bad habits of fading in and out of games which he needs to break the cycle of lest he become another Westhoff.

This board doesn't have the patience required to develop a list, because most of the people on here grew up with Port Adelaide winning premierships every second year. All I've ever said is I'd wait until we get our full list of players back (minus Watts) before I make a judgement on whether Ken Hinkley can or can't coach. Because this year is the first year since 2014 that I've seen the playing list commit 100% to what they are trying to do...and more importantly, have the talent and experience that is necessary to turn it into a reality.
Look, I know nothing is going to change your mind. We could get those players back, miss the 8 and there would still be an excuse up your sleeve.

All I'm saying is that the negativity you point to isn't without reason. You say people look overwhelming to the negative, well that's just because there's an overwhelmingly large amount of evidence that's negative.

Faith doesn't even come into it anymore. That was lost a long time ago.
 

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Janus

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#77
Look, I know nothing is going to change your mind. We could get those players back, miss the 8 and there would still be an excuse up your sleeve.

All I'm saying is that the negativity you point to isn't without reason. You say people look overwhelming to the negative, well that's just because there's an overwhelmingly large amount of evidence that's negative.
Nope, if we get those players back and miss the eight, then I'll say Ken needs to go because there's no excuse for missing the eight with our list relatively healthy.
 

Janus

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#79
"the universe is mental." (Janus)

I concur. Mental, indeed.

In Brazil, it is common for a fan base to chant "I BE-LIEVE! I BE-LIEVE!" when the team is facing adversity and needs a come back. Let me tell you, many times all this belief is not enough.

We can all focus and teach our brains to believe something, but that alone conquers nothing. One still needs to act upon the world, and the world might have a belief of its own. The universe can totally disagree with us. It is mental...

Seriously though, we have shown time and time again that we lack precisely the mental fortitude to win. The leadership is not good. We could win it all, obviously, like we did in 2004, after choking and choking and choking.

The question is: are we learning from our failures? The thread works even after St. Kilda. They have fought their hearts out against us in China. They couldn't kick for goals, while we finally did it. However, they were getting into their F50 and scoring more constantly than most of our opponents. Can we sustain our goal-kicking, while improving our pressing game?

We have seen us playing great football immediately followed by dumb footy. Our team has zero credibility. The benefit of doubt is against them. They need to provide the evidence that they can be more then what they have been. They must acknowledge and accept that such a skepticism is DESERVED and FAIR.

Then, from THAT, we can start moving on.
The principle of mentalism is knowing that all actions are proceeded by thought. Buddha said: "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world." You first have to believe in yourself, then you can gain faith...and then you can act on it. But you have to think you can first. If you don't, you're never going to do anything. Period.

Acknowledging scepticism is a complete waste of time because quite frankly, it's irrelevant to team performance. As long as they believe, that's all that matters. You either come along for the ride or you don't.
 

Janus

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#81
Actually I’m pretty sure I’ve done the exact opposite of saying my opinion is a fact. I’ve always acknowledged that my opinions are just that.

It’s when people make definitive statements based on opinions that I’ll respond in kind. People are funny like that.
 

El_Scorcho

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#82
I too have faith that this list has a flag in it, which is why it's been so frustrating to see us tactically shoot ourselves in the foot over Hinkley's tenure.

It'd be easy to emotionally disconnect if we were just ****, but we went into the 2015 season as flag favourites for a good reason and we improved our list after that. We've seen spurts of our best football and it's absolutely good enough, but it's been a handful of quarters over 4 years.

We're a Ferrari being driven by an aging Labrador.
 

Butters Made Me Do It

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Thread starter #83
Partially agree, I think this list has a premiership in it after we clear out the You Get What You Deserve brigade, the gold passes go out the window, and we get games into the in-form young guys
 
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#84
I think 2015 was more the result of the change we had in coaching, which included Walsh leaving after sticking by the club for so many years.
I also feel like we may have overworked our list in the pre-season, which resulted in a lot of inconsistent performances from some of our best names.
But most of all I feel like after the backhand of 2014 teams were finally starting to grow aware of us and our success, and it really didn't look hard to exploit us after that.
It's the only year I really don't have much forgiveness for, along with the final match of 2017, but in normal cases, 2016 would've been the year of redemption, but after the amount of change our list started to undergo we simply couldn't pull it off.
 

GremioPower

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#86
The principle of mentalism is knowing that all actions are proceeded by thought. Buddha said: "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world." You first have to believe in yourself, then you can gain faith...and then you can act on it. But you have to think you can first. If you don't, you're never going to do anything. Period.

Acknowledging scepticism is a complete waste of time because quite frankly, it's irrelevant to team performance. As long as they believe, that's all that matters. You either come along for the ride or you don't.
Then, it doesn't matter whether we believe it or not, right?

If so, against what are you arguing here?
 

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El_Scorcho

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#87
I don't think this current team has a premiership in it. The 2014-2018 team potentially did. We're in transition now.
I'd agree if we weren't in the era of middling premiers. We spanked the reigning premiers off the park on their own deck 6 weeks ago.

Premierships now are about hitting form and having luck with injury at the right part of the season. If we do get our best players back and everyone catches the sort of form we saw against West Coast, we're good enough to beat anyone anywhere.

Under Hinkley the chances of winning 4 games in a row against top 8 opponents is effectively zero though.

Instead of what attempting what Janus termed the pursuit of football mastery over the last few seasons, we could have 3peated in 16,17,18 just by having a simple effective gameplan and punishing our opponents for their mistakes.
 

Magus

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#88
I don't think this current team has a premiership in it. The 2014-2018 team potentially did. We're in transition now.
Strange how we went from recruiting Thomas/Watts/Rockliff/Motlop to trading Polec/Wingard and hitting the draft within one year though. From flag tilt to rebuild. It would interesting to know at which point the club realised that our window had closed.
 

GremioPower

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#90
Que?

It's a fact that Hinkley has achieved sweet FA in the last 4 going on 5 years.

How is that circumstantial or just an opinion?
The question "who am I" must precede the question "who do I want to be." There is a natural limit for my will. My belief can be as strong as God's, but if it doesn't respect the circumstances, it will lead me into failure and disappointment.

For instance, every single person in Alberton can fully and truly believe that Sam Gray is an AFL full forward. Sam Gray and the team can practice the hardest for him to become a full forward. Still, all this hypothetical hard work will be for naught, because Sam Gray is not naturally gifted to play as full forward in the AFL.

"Know Thyself"


------
P.S.: As Christian, I believe that Christ is "Everymen." He represents each one of us and is the paradigm of human perfection. In brief, his story is about myself as much as is about Him and everyone else.

Still, although Christ is me, I am not Christ. I came to the world as myself. My goal is to become the best version of me, which will fall short — really short — from Christ.

That, in itself, is not bad. It simply is what it is. I must acknowledge who I am and go on from there. I will most probably fall short from the best version of myself, even; still, I have an obligation to move towards it. It is my only path to happiness. This is true for me and for every person — including collective persons such as sporting teams, corporations, and political societies.

I do think, as a sport team, that we must believe we can win against any opponent. However, our game plan still needs to consider who we are, who our opposition is, and the circumstances. There is a line between actual belief and lying to one's own self.
 
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Amarula

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#91
We seem to have a bipolar coaching panel.
One part pushes us to take the game on, such as against WCE and Dees, where we won by sticking to "brave footy".
The other part pushes us to go into our shells and play defensively, such as playing two underperforming forwards in defensive roles in showdown, and trying to shut up shop in last quarters resulting in handing over the momentum to the other team.

There is no question that we look better when we take the game on.
The only question is: which of our coaches are responsible for each of these parts?

My guess/opinion is that Ken's natural preference is to push the defensive button, especially when things stack up to increase the difficulty - injuries, or tough opponents, or bad conditions, or super-important match. Ken has the final decision, and sometimes the other coaches are able to persuade him to play an attacking game-style, and sometimes they can't.

Shanghai was strange - we picked a very defensive team stacked with HBFs, but by the time the match came around and Saints had their problems with illness & injury, we actually played a very attacking game with Houston in midfield and pushing Bonner further up the ground. My guess/opinion: Ken had control of team selection and went uber-defensive being daunted by the importance of the game to our Shanghai push, but because of the Saints problems the other coaches were able to talk him in to the attacking changes.

That's only my impression, but since he traded in Watts & Motlop last year to help our i50 entries and played them as defensive forwards, I can't come up with a better explanation.
 

malcolm

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#92
We're now 4th favorite for the flag so chill out dudes:

It’s based on the premiers of the last 10 seasons; each of them has ranked in the top five in each of the following five key statistics:

The profile is made up of five key statistics:

- Points differential from turnovers (taking into account both points allowed and conceded from this source);
- Points scored from the forward half;
- Opposition scores per inside 50;
- Forward 50 groundballs;
- and post stoppage contested possessions (which are, as the name suggests, all contested possessions that occur outside and after a stoppage).

The latter in particular is being valued more and more in footy circles.
While awareness of the importance of contested footy has grown over the last decade, there is a difference between the ugly type of possession won within a stoppage and the pure, clean type of possession won after one.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...e/news-story/a58cf8b128b7f164a6c22378ef623fb7
 

Janus

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#93
Que?

It's a fact that Hinkley has achieved sweet FA in the last 4 going on 5 years.

How is that circumstantial or just an opinion?
Because it doesn't take into account the depth of the list at that time.

Here's what we have lost from 2014 until 2018:

OUT: Schulz, Carlile, Trengove, White, Monfries, Cornes, Stewart, Colquhoun, Lobbe, Butcher, O'Shea, Palmer, Mitchell, Austin, Harvey, Austin, Moore, Redden, Shaw, Impey, Young, Krakouer, Toumpas, Neade, Pittard, Polec, Wingard, Hombsch and Barry.

IN: Rozee, Butters, Duursma, Dixon, Ryder, Howard, Byrne-Jones, Houston, Lycett, Rockliff, Motlop, Watts, Hayes, Marshall, Powell-Pepper, Drew, Atley, Woodcock, Frampton, Garner, Patmore, Farrell, Bonner, Johnson, Burton, Mayes, McKenzie, Trengove, Grundy, Lienert and Sam Gray.

The bolded players are the ones that played in the 2014 preliminary final against Hawthorn. So from 2014 to now, we have ditched 15 of our best 22 from that year, and replaced them with the bolded italic players.

2015 - Ryder
2016 - Dixon, Houston, Byrne-Jones
2017 - Powell-Pepper
2018 - Rockliff, Motlop, Watts, Howard
2019 - Lycett, Rozee, Butters, Duursma, Burton, Lienert
 
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#94
Because it doesn't take into account the depth of the list at that time.

Here's what we have lost from 2014 until 2018:

OUT: Schulz, Carlile, Trengove, White, Monfries, Cornes, Stewart, Colquhoun, Lobbe, Butcher, O'Shea, Palmer, Mitchell, Austin, Harvey, Austin, Moore, Redden, Shaw, Impey, Young, Krakouer, Toumpas, Neade, Pittard, Polec, Wingard, Hombsch and Barry.

IN: Rozee, Butters, Duursma, Dixon, Ryder, Howard, Byrne-Jones, Houston, Lycett, Rockliff, Motlop, Watts, Hayes, Marshall, Powell-Pepper, Drew, Atley, Woodcock, Frampton, Garner, Patmore, Farrell, Bonner, Johnson, Burton, Mayes, McKenzie, Trengove, Grundy, Lienert and Sam Gray.

The bolded players are the ones that played in the 2014 preliminary final against Hawthorn. So from 2014 to now, we have ditched 15 of our best 22 from that year, and replaced them with the bolded italic players.

2015 - Ryder
2016 - Dixon, Houston, Byrne-Jones
2017 - Powell-Pepper
2018 - Rockliff, Motlop, Watts, Howard
2019 - Lycett, Rozee, Butters, Duursma, Burton, Lienert
Nothing you have posted contradicts the fact that Hinkley has achieved absolutely FA since 2014 - one EF appearance for one loss.
 

Janus

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#95
Nothing you have posted contradicts the fact that Hinkley has achieved absolutely FA since 2014 - one EF appearance for one loss.
So you think changing 15 players from the best 22 over a four year period has zero effect in team performance?

This is exactly what I mean. This board has a subjective view of what it takes to win a flag based on...what exactly, I don’t know. It sure isn’t reality, but some romantic notion of ‘the good old days’ when Port was dominant.

The problem is that in order to achieve that sort of consistent dominance (like Geelong has), time and effort is required to build the list.

You can’t win if you don’t have the depth coming up from underneath that is conditioned to play the right way. Every successful team has been successful on the back of their list depth, because injuries happen. Unless you’re talking 2014, when we had zero to speak of and collapsed in a heap when Trengove and Carlile went down for a few weeks.

But you also can’t win if you equate youth with success. Because then the depth isn’t creating pressure from underneath and you aren’t taking full advantage of the experience in the team. Every side that has gone down a play the kids route has failed - they need experienced players around them.
 

El_Scorcho

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#97
So you think changing 15 players from the best 22 over a four year period has zero effect in team performance?
Ooh I like this game. Geelong are strong flag favourites, sitting top at 11-1.

Let's look at the 24 players they fielded in the 2014 finals series.

Caddy
Selwood
Duncan

Mackie
Hawkins
Enright
Bartel
Varcoe
Motlop
Stokes
Guthrie
Rivers
Taylor
Brown
Horlin-Smith
Kelly
Lonergan
Blicavs
Walker
Murdoch
McCarthy
Thurlow
Johnson
McIntosh

Just to help you out, I've gone ahead and bolded the players still on Geelong's list. All 6 of them.

Of the 22 that thrashed Richmond last week, only 6 were on the list in 2014, and that's the bolded names above.
 
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El_Scorcho

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#99
looks like Janus switched to contextless stats again. Classic.
The argument he made was that changing 15 of our best 22 was too big of a list turnover over since the 2014 prelim for us to expect success at this point, that we need time to build this list.

Someone better go tell 11-1 Geelong, because they've turned over 16 of their best 22 in the same period. I'm sure they'll be disappointed to hear that success is out of their reach this year.
 
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