What if the VFL didn't go National?

[Rob]

At the end of the day it's opinion about something that didn't happen. Your entitled to yours. There is no absolute right or wrong as I see it.
The league and the cricket experience is more that as much as possible was taken, so the new comp had as much credibility and as little competition as possible. Thats how I read it.

Fair enough, but I think you're grossly overestimating the 'competition' a few small VFL clubs would provide to a new national league. They probably would have dropped back to the VFA (as it was known then) and kept that league going much stronger than it's going now.

It's an interesting hypothetical, especially in other states, if existing state league clubs were taken (I believe the Elliott proposal was for composite teams in other states to add to about 6 VFL clubs). What would have happened to the WAFL if 3 clubs left it? Back then as an 8 team league the loss of 3 teams would have gutted it.

 

[Bokonon]

Fair enough, but I think you're grossly overestimating the 'competition' a few small VFL clubs would provide to a new national league. They probably would have dropped back to the VFA (as it was known then) and kept that league going much stronger than it's going now.

It's an interesting hypothetical, especially in other states, if existing state league clubs were taken (I believe the Elliott proposal was for composite teams in other states to add to about 6 VFL clubs). What would have happened to the WAFL if 3 clubs left it? Back then as an 8 team league the loss of 3 teams would have gutted it.

I have more knowlege of the SANFL where Port would have no doubt jumped and possibly Norwood. Both of those would stand alone to the death I would think. There is some history if successful mergers there though with Woodville-West Torrens. It would have been gutted though as you say. End result was probably more a slow spiral instead.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Certainly Packer improved it. But I get less and less interested in cricket as the years go on. I wouldn't even know who is touring this year.

I know what you mean. When I was younger, I was a fanatical cricket fan, and I use that word correctly. These days, I actually follow the ML Baseball more closely.

 

[STFU Donnie]

yep Marsh has been the problem, nothing to do with the so called star cricketers who can't play outside their comfort zone.

There are many who would say that the Chairman of Selector's main role is to find such players.

 

[ezard15]

I know what you mean. When I was younger, I was a fanatical cricket fan, and I use that word correctly. These days, I actually follow the ML Baseball more closely.

Yeah I think I remember wanting Australia to win nearly as much as I wanted Essendon to win when I was a kid.

Ashes aside I'm not too fussed about the results in cricket anymore.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Ok I stand corrected on that part. Hopefully the rest made sense.

I guess the point I was making is that this obsession with ensuring we have an even competition doesn't necessarily make it a better competition. The EPL is the prime example. It allows massive clubs like Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc to thrive which makes it a more exciting competition. It makes it more predictable but the EPL is still unpredictable enough to be a fascinating competition.

The salary cap, apart from being a restrain of trade, prevents players from being paid what they are worth. The money that should go the players ends up in the pockets of people like ol mate Andrew Demetrio, who was paid well in excess of what the best player is paid.

The draft system punishes teams for being successful and rewards teams for playing poorly.

I would love to have seen how the competition would have evolved if it wasn't so regulated.

I think most running soccer would like some kind of salary cap but it's pretty much impossible.

There needs to be a balance. The big money is in England and the game there is a mess, really. Spending is out of control and you have utterly average players and their leech agents being paid crazy money.

There's three horribly rich clubs, 17 stupidly rich clubs and the other 72 aren't in great condition financially. The game at junior levels isn't great, it doesn't produce good players and the national team is a joke. Season tickets cost thousands.

Money has completely corrupted the game in England - it does allow complete spending freedom but does that even matter? Nobody will ever compete with Chelsea and City anyway, their money is literally endless.

 

[Grongey]

They'd have given South and Fitzroy the boot, back to the VFA. Then carried on as before.

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

What?

You think provincial sports go international based on how much local fans care about them doing so?

No only when provincial thinking is used by the Administrators.

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

yep Marsh has been the problem, nothing to do with the so called star cricketers who can't play outside their comfort zone.

Play on roads, get run over overseas.

 

[FootyJunkie]

East Perth, East Fremantle, Port Adelaide Magpies, and Norwood would have joined the VFL

 

[greatwhiteshark]

East Perth, East Fremantle, Port Adelaide Magpies, and Norwood would have joined the VFL

Would of been West Perth and East Fremantle.

 

[Tedeski]

Going to have bit of a fun hypothetical.

Let's say Allen Aylett and Jack Hamilton, backed by the 12 VFL clubs, had decided to not go national...would there be 16 clubs? Would the competition survive?

I'm going to have a crack and say it could have, provided the same financial state that presides today would be in place.

There would be 16 clubs.

New clubs would come from Ballarat (probably North Ballarat), Bendigo, Shepparton, Warrnambool, Traralgon and Albury/Wodonga.

Facilities in these country towns would have been upgraded to allow the teams to play matches in front of ever growing crowds and that there would be more night footy as well.

The country leagues would remain as the main feeder into the system, which would have seniors, reserves and under-19s.

So, time to put the thinking caps on..could it have happened..and how would it have looked?

If the AFL didn't go National, we would still be playing the Grand Final at the MCG every year!

 

[tigertigertiger]

Warrnambool Giants would have joined the league and won 10 premierships in a row, collapsing every club and folding the league!

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It's a great shame that some of the big WAFL and SANFL clubs never got the chance to be in the AFL. The WAFL at the time would not allow it and the VFL was expanding and agreed to a composite team.
The people running football in WA at the time have a lot to answer for but it is all ancient history now. All they had to do was hold out for a few more years and work closely with the SANFL to get a few more things on their terms. They held far more power than they knew as the VFL could not of put a side in those states as it would fail and going national without those two football states was like promoting fishing in the desert.
I don't think football got it right for a national league but here we are now and there is no going back. Unless I become a billionaire all of a sudden. Lol

 

[BigBertO]

If the VFL didn't go national perhaps we would have ended up with an actual real national game from a tear away comp, not one where VFL teams still dominate and are the only ones given a chance to win flags because victorians end up whinging every singl time.

Since the mention of the summit at the end of 06 we have had one interstate side win the flag and the rest have been victorian. And that interstate team is a foundation club anyway that was relocated.

The last time we had a true national GF featuring non victorian teams was 2006.

Compare that to the NRL where they have a new premier now every single year, the AFL is a laugh really.

And if we had a true national comp we wouldn't have 4 victorian teams playing in prime time to start the season off.

You victorians can spin all you want but sadly this comp is still very much a victorian one. As soon as non victorian teams dominate the victorian AFL media go into over drive to whip victorians up into this paranoid state of mind.

The giants will dominate the comp and it will be interesting to see the reactions. Judging by the mental gymnastics performed this year from vic supporters i seriously think its going to ugly if GWS win more than 2 flags in the next 5 years. Hence why the bulldogs winning this year was important for the AFL.

Could you imagine what it would have been like if it was a GWS vs Sydney GF? The indifference, the melt downs and the disrespect from vic fans would have been massive. Not to mention the whinging from Eddie and Luke darcy.

I am sorry but the AFL is still a very VFL comp in every facet bar the name.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Certainly Packer improved it. But I get less and less interested in cricket as the years go on. I wouldn't even know who is touring this year.

But is that because it's back to cricket as normal and not the B&H world series anymore?

 

[BigBertO]

But is that because it's back to cricket as normal and not the B&H world series anymore?

Cricket has changed in the last decade. I dont know why, but I am another one who has lost a lot of interest. Maybe it is the format that worked so well for decades.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Cricket has changed in the last decade. I dont know why, but I am another one who has lost a lot of interest. Maybe it is the format that worked so well for decades.

Not much of a battle between bowler and batsman these days with the pitches they produce, honestly if you can't score runs these days you are absolute hack of a batsman.

 

[pablo668]

maybe someone in here with a good knowledge of the history of the VFL at the time can fill me in a bit more but.....

My recollection was that many of the teams in the then VFL had spent themselves into serious debt. Was the VFL at that time able to have bailed these teams out?
I think there is a good chance that the VFL would have lost a few teams had they not gone National and the sport more professional.
This would have had a knock on effect in the WAFL cause many of our clubs had come to rely on the influx of cash from Vic clubs buying players from them.

It could have been very ugly.

I would still like to have seen traditional WA teams in the national comp. Then of course it would have been a huge controversy as to who would go and who would stay.

 

[pablo668]

Suddenly I feel like a delicious Benson & Hedges.....

 

[greatwhiteshark]

If the VFL didn't go national perhaps we would have ended up with an actual real national game from a tear away comp, not one where VFL teams still dominate and are the only ones given a chance to win flags because victorians end up whinging every singl time.

Since the mention of the summit at the end of 06 we have had one interstate side win the flag and the rest have been victorian. And that interstate team is a foundation club anyway that was relocated.

The last time we had a true national GF featuring non victorian teams was 2006.

Compare that to the NRL where they have a new premier now every single year, the AFL is a laugh really.

And if we had a true national comp we wouldn't have 4 victorian teams playing in prime time to start the season off.

You victorians can spin all you want but sadly this comp is still very much a victorian one. As soon as non victorian teams dominate the victorian AFL media go into over drive to whip victorians up into this paranoid state of mind.

The giants will dominate the comp and it will be interesting to see the reactions. Judging by the mental gymnastics performed this year from vic supporters i seriously think its going to ugly if GWS win more than 2 flags in the next 5 years. Hence why the bulldogs winning this year was important for the AFL.

Could you imagine what it would have been like if it was a GWS vs Sydney GF? The indifference, the melt downs and the disrespect from vic fans would have been massive. Not to mention the whinging from Eddie and Luke darcy.

I am sorry but the AFL is still a very VFL comp in every facet bar the name.

I have no problem with looking after Victorian footy, it is half the talent pool and needs to be looked after as much as anywhere else does.
I agree that it is still very Vic centric and not really much compromise comes out of Victoria led by head office itself.
Pumping up Victorian clubs with premier timeslots and blockbusters does very little to help the game nationally, many will say it's about money but when you throw at those people to let's make the game about money then they run for cover.
Look it is what it is and until the day comes when the clubs outside of Victoria get together as one and make a stand then nothing will change.
Victoria has to be a large part of the game, that is a no brainer. But it does and should not be all of the game which it currently is still viewed as some 30 years into expansion.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

maybe someone in here with a good knowledge of the history of the VFL at the time can fill me in a bit more but.....

My recollection was that many of the teams in the then VFL had spent themselves into serious debt. Was the VFL at that time able to have bailed these teams out?
I think there is a good chance that the VFL would have lost a few teams had they not gone National and the sport more professional.
This would have had a knock on effect in the WAFL cause many of our clubs had come to rely on the influx of cash from Vic clubs buying players from them.

It could have been very ugly.

I would still like to have seen traditional WA teams in the national comp. Then of course it would have been a huge controversy as to who would go and who would stay.

I think if they had of gone for 6 Vic clubs, 2 WAFL clubs and 2 SANFL clubs, add in a Sydney and Brisbane then we would of had a better product.
The other clubs would all be is second division with relegation and promotion.
It is hard to view it now but back in the mid 80,s this was very possible.

 

[pablo668]

No I could see this, my Tigers back in say 78-82 quite competitive when playing against VFL sides. Won a few games too. I think if the bigger WAFL clubs had have made a go of it in the VFL they may have done well.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

No I could see this, my Tigers back in say 78-82 quite competitive when playing against VFL sides. Won a few games too. I think if the bigger WAFL clubs had have made a go of it in the VFL they may have done well.

Mate if you throw money at something then the sheep follow. Eagles classic example.
The Vic clubs bar a few were no bigger than WAFL and SANFL clubs and money has made them what they are now. It is not who they were.

 

[telsor]

Mate if you throw money at something then the sheep follow. Eagles classic example.
The Vic clubs bar a few were no bigger than WAFL and SANFL clubs and money has made them what they are now. It is not who they were.

In 1980...
Vic population was 3.914Million
WA was 1.269M
SA was 1.308M

Sure, support wasn't evenly split between the clubs, but Vic clubs also had substantial followings in other states (especially Tas, but also Southern NSW).

Support matters both for recruitment and $$$, and if you think they were even close to even, how many players were poached from the VFL to play in the WAFL/SANFL?

The idea that WA and/or SA clubs were equal to Vic clubs is...erm...exceedingly generous. At the very best, the largest of those clubs (Port in SA, not sure there was a similar standout in WA) would have been close to the smallest Vic clubs (the ones you want to get rid of to make way).


For those claiming 'oh, but my club beat Vic clubs'...Remember that back then travel was rare, and thus a very big deal, then ask yourself ...Where did they play?