NO TROLLS What is the actual case against COVID Vaccination?

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Bloods86

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However, alongside various failures of the public health profession when it comes to the damage caused by lockdowns, ignoring natural immunity, masks, mandates, job loss, and the inability to consider and weigh broader social / political / economic impacts, the distrust of public health authorities is (sadly) justified and has probably done more to fuel anti-vax sentiment than the antivaxxers.
I would argue that in general, the distrust of public health authorities (when based on sound scientific and medical advice), has very little to do with the damage caused or perceived failures. It's largely a result of other areas/entities (as well as, IDK, the virus), albeit it (public health) is used as an excuse.

Natural immunity has not been ignored, in fact I believe you're currently recommended not to get the booster if you've had Covid in recent months. The damage caused by lockdowns, masks, mandates etc pale when compared to the impacts of the virus (sans those measures). Damage and perceived damage has been heightened by those with anti-science and other vested interests whipping some members of society into a panic about freedoms (as if health and flow on abilities aren't a more fundamental freedom) or generally to make poor health decisions. Damage has also been caused by a lack of financial and other support from non public health areas of government (or where hamstrung), to help alleviate the impacts of necessary public health measures (like lockdowns and other restrictions).

If people make the leap between government disconnect at times (on restrictions vs support), and then distrust the scientific/medical community (on vaccines), that is on them (and the people that tell them they're connected).

Unfortunately, these issues are tied together in my mind, particularly as vaccines were politically framed as the only way out of the pandemic.
I'm sorry if this is your belief, but this never happened and is not happening today. A critical part of reducing the impacts and the likely timeframe of the pandemic sure, this is holding up.

My political philosophy is that individual choice in this matter should be paramount, that consent and persuasion are much better than coercion, and that coercive policies such as mandates, exclusion from society, and threat of job loss are a far greater evil and harm than the virus itself.
We live in a society. We have always had restrictions, rules and penalties around behaviour that harms ourselves and others (including other vaccine mandates). Now, I'm only for selective mandates (which is all we have in Australia), but if you work in an industry which has one (like healthcare or emergency services), then absolutely your likelihood and willingness to help spread the virus, become much sicker yourself (adversely affecting your employer, your colleagues and customers/society), and to take up health system capacity (impacting society at large), should be taken into account. Not to mention the increased chances of unfavourable mutations the longer the pandemic goes on.

Persuasion also only works on people willing to learn. There's no shortage of evidence, or overwhelming expert advice, that the vaccines are safe and have various benefits, and yet...

I think we have lost our sense of humanity through the pandemic and that is incredibly damaging to our communities and society.
I actually agree. People who refuse to get vaccinated unless for medical exemptions (and I can empathise somewhat with particular minority groups who've legitimate distrust of authorities), should think about the damage the lack of humanity (in their decision) can cause. Now I'll seriously agree in part, I don't personally abuse anti-vaxxers. I don't think they're stupid or that vaccination is an IQ test, i.e. poor/ignorant decisions aren't the sum total of a person. I have previously held religious and related social views, including conspiracy theories, which I now consider ignorant or wrong, harmful in some situations even (albeit not that it could end lives like anti-vax positions can), and I didn't gain IQ points when I left those beliefs behind. I'll stick to this, despite being abused by and having had (online) threats of violence from an anti-vaxxer previously.

I could easily imagine some people would refuse to take it out of solidarity with those who are concerned about it or the other political / social / conscience reasons I've mentioned.
I cannot fathom the mindset of those who would view vaccinations as safe and effective, refuse to get it out of solidarity for the unvaccinated, while simultaneously ignoring solidarity with the health, lives and livelihoods of the much greater numbers impacted or potentially impacted by this virus. I would argue that most who say such things were probably never pro vaccine, or just want to belong to a disruptive cause. It's kind of like the anti-vaccine grifters in politics, the media or other platforms, who have been vaccinated themselves - there's no or little substance, they just want to look good for their intended audience or cohort.
 
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PurpleEyes

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Look, I think you are trying to use some rather flawed mathematical equations to prove some sort of point about vaccine hesitancy which I just can't see any link/relevance.

You can't exclude cases who are not vaccinated. You can't exclude the "under investigation" cases (which, in my opinion, would be mainly made up of unvaccinated people withholding/unable to communicate their status). You are using raw data without knowing any information about that data (e.g. how long ago was their second dose, are any of them 3rd dosed, etc). There are way too many holes in the data to do the calculations you are trying to do.

In any case, I haven't been a part of this discussion for a loooooooong time and have only recently been curious to see what is going on here because, at this point in time, I don't really believe there are any true "vaccine hesitant" individuals any more. Those that were going to be vaccinated, or were hesitant and flipped are now vaccinated, those that aren't vaccinated at this point are never going to be vaccinated.

Given you have never had a flu vaccine, I'm going to also assume you fall into the second category (correct me if I'm wrong). So at this point, why are we still trying to argue/prove anything about the vaccine? There are plenty of stats that support the vaccine's ability to prevent hospitalisation and death over the course of the pandemic. It is undeniable that it has saved lives.

Show me where my maths is wrong.

We are currently seeing a disproportionate number of vaccinated cases.
Which indicates the vaccines are not as effective as we were told.
Nov '20, Pfizer told us 1 dose, 28 days, 95% effective.
A year later, in some countries they have approved a 4th dose and offer no guarantees of effectiveness above 50% for more than a couple of months.
This is why some, like myself are vaccine hesitant. The difference between the sales talk and real world are startling.
With time, we become better informed ... hence vaccine hesitancy.
I can go out tomorrow and get vaccinated, I can not go out the day after and get unvaccinated.

I supported my mother getting the influenza vaccine.
I had done my research and found the risk/benefit of the flu jab was beneficial for certain age demographics in certain environments.
My elderly mother was in a nursing home at the time.
I'm horses for courses with vaccines.
I live in WA. We have not had one single Covid-19 death since early May '20.
With the benefit of time, so far, my judgement not to be vaccinated has been correct.
And now we have the Omicron variant in Australia and the statistical chances of that killing me even if I find myself infected is very low ... less than 1 in 1,000 for my age and health (even if unvaccinated). I have far more chance of dying from other causes.

So am I telling you that you shouldn't get vaccinated for Covid-19 ... heck no.
I want people to make their own informed decision.
That's why you can call me anti-mandate and that would be true.
You can even say I'm anti-Covid-19-vax with my current beliefs for my personal current environment and that would be true.
But to generalise and call me antivax is making an assumption that is not true.
 

Gruffles

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Show me where my maths is wrong.

We are currently seeing a disproportionate number of vaccinated cases.
Which indicates the vaccines are not as effective as we were told.
Nov '20, Pfizer told us 1 dose, 28 days, 95% effective.
A year later, in some countries they have approved a 4th dose and offer no guarantees of effectiveness above 50% for more than a couple of months.
This is why some, like myself are vaccine hesitant. The difference between the sales talk and real world are startling.
With time, we become better informed ... hence vaccine hesitancy.
I can go out tomorrow and get vaccinated, I can not go out the day after and get unvaccinated.

I supported my mother getting the influenza vaccine.
I had done my research and found the risk/benefit of the flu jab was beneficial for certain age demographics in certain environments.
My elderly mother was in a nursing home at the time.
I'm horses for courses with vaccines.
I live in WA. We have not had one single Covid-19 death since early May '20.
With the benefit of time, so far, my judgement not to be vaccinated has been correct.
And now we have the Omicron variant in Australia and the statistical chances of that killing me even if I find myself infected is very low ... less than 1 in 1,000 for my age and health (even if unvaccinated). I have far more chance of dying from other causes.

So am I telling you that you shouldn't get vaccinated for Covid-19 ... heck no.
I want people to make their own informed decision.
That's why you can call me anti-mandate and that would be true.
You can even say I'm anti-Covid-19-vax with my current beliefs for my personal current environment and that would be true.
But to generalise and call me antivax is making an assumption that is not true.

Please point out where I called you anti-vax??

At no time have I said that so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring that up.

Also... I didn't say your maths was wrong but rather that it was flawed given the data you are using. I went through that in detail in my last post so maybe read that one again.

So this is where I'm saying that trying to 'inform' people by using flawed information/results/data/whatever is not actually informing them at all but rather throwing confusion into the equation.

You had a crack at me for pointing you to data that you claimed was old and not focussing on the situation we are in now, yet you've just pointed to a statement made by Pfizer in 2020. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this? You can't selectively use old data/statements to back yourself up while criticising others for using old data/statements.
 
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kingswood71

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In general, I encourage people to critically analyse statistics.
I don't believe the AusVaxSafety data to be 100% accurate.
In fact, I have strong evidence to indicate they manipulate some of the data they present.
But like any statistics regarding Covid-19, I look at the numbers presented and try to see if they can be supported by other evidence.
The Switzerland 0.06% does not pass the sniff test as well as the AusVaxSafety data does.

Regarding the AusVaxSafety seeking medical attendance statistics, there is a significant difference in these numbers being reported to indicate that they are closely correlated to the vaccine and dose. The table below is a summary of the AusVaxSafety data for the Covid-19 vaccines;

View attachment 1316991

And again, if you search the AusVaxSafety website you will find other vaccines monitored are generally around the 0.2-0.4% mark for requiring medical attendance.
(NB: Pfizer's Dose 3 for required medical attendance was 1.3% prior to AusVaxSafety taking a month off over Christmas. When they returned, that number had dropped to 0.8%)

I doubt most of the Covid-19 statistics I see. None of it is perfect and we can all pick faults in the data if we look for it.
Australia's official Covid-19 death statistics are obviously inaccurate when I see the likes of a 15year old Sydney boy who dies from pneumococcal meningitis but because he was Covid-19 positive he gets recorded and reported as a Covid-19 death.
If you read the annual report, you will find that the % who went to a GP or ED in the days following vaccines ranged from 0.4% for the flu to 1.7% for the 4 year old vaccines.....
 

PurpleEyes

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Please point out where I called you anti-vax??

At no time have I said that so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring that up.

Also... I didn't say your maths was wrong but rather that it was flawed given the data you are using. I went through that in detail in my last post so maybe read that one again.

So this is where I'm saying that trying to 'inform' people by using flawed information/results/data/whatever is not actually informing them at all but rather throwing confusion into the equation.

You had a crack at me for pointing you to data that you claimed was old and not focussing on the situation we are in now, yet you've just pointed to a statement made by Pfizer in 2020. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this? You can't selectively use old data/statements to back yourself up while criticising others for using old data/statements.

Correct, you did not call me an anti-vax ... and I never said you did.
We both did a dance around that.
That is, you did say "those that aren't vaccinated at this point are never going to be vaccinated."
And I then made statements about what I believe you could say that would or would not be accurate about me.

You can't exclude cases who are not vaccinated. You can't exclude the "under investigation" cases (which, in my opinion, would be mainly made up of unvaccinated people withholding/unable to communicate their status). You are using raw data without knowing any information about that data (e.g. how long ago was their second dose, are any of them 3rd dosed, etc). There are way too many holes in the data to do the calculations you are trying to do.

I am unsure why you think my analysis of the NSW data was flawed when you went and gave Bloods a like for doing the same thing as I did. Either both Bloods and I meet your requirements or we both don't. I believe you are being hypocritical liking one and criticising another.
Both the UK and NSW reports/tables concerned included data which had under investigation groups and both lacked details of how long ago their second doses were.

And yes I am selectively using old data where it is appropriate.
When illustrating my point about vaccine hesitancy due to a lack of trust in vaccine producers sales talk, it is entirely appropriate.
When debating the latest weeks data available for NSW case numbers in Australia and you choose to refer to another table with data from several weeks before (relating to different vaccination rates and a different Covid-19 variant) it is entirely appropriate for me to be critical of that.
 

Gruffles

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Correct, you did not call me an anti-vax ... and I never said you did.
We both did a dance around that.
That is, you did say "those that aren't vaccinated at this point are never going to be vaccinated."
And I then made statements about what I believe you could say that would or would not be accurate about me.



I am unsure why you think my analysis of the NSW data was flawed when you went and gave Bloods a like for doing the same thing as I did. Either both Bloods and I meet your requirements or we both don't. I believe you are being hypocritical liking one and criticising another.
Both the UK and NSW reports/tables concerned included data which had under investigation groups and both lacked details of how long ago their second doses were.

And yes I am selectively using old data where it is appropriate.
When illustrating my point about vaccine hesitancy due to a lack of trust in vaccine producers sales talk, it is entirely appropriate.
When debating the latest weeks data available for NSW case numbers in Australia and you choose to refer to another table with data from several weeks before (relating to different vaccination rates and a different Covid-19 variant) it is entirely appropriate for me to be critical of that.

I was referring to the fact that in keeping people informed you only seem to be informing people of one side of the argument. The historical hospitalisation data is highly supportive of the vaccines ability to keep people out of hospital... And yet you ignore that or are critical of me bringing it up.

I was liking bloods statement of bringing further data into the discussion in response to the other thread (which I did see BTW).

I have not danced around dubbing anyone an anti vaxxer. In fact, if you look at my posting history on this forum I've been critical of people who do just that. I stand by my statement that those who have chosen not to be vaccinated at this point are not hesitant any more but rather just not going to get a covid vax. This does not make them 'anti vaxxers'. Bringing this into the discussion only inflames the discussion and is not helpful.

It is not at all appropriate to use a statement made in 2020 against what we are seeing now as "sales talk". The landscape has changed dramatically since that statement.

Frustratingly, you have also completely ignored the comments around comparing covid vax adverse effects to flu (or any other historical vaccine for that matter) vax adverse effects. There's been no acknowledgement of the fact that one has been thoroughly surveyed while the other has not at all, making comparisons flawed. Instead you just stonewalled that fact and moved into another area of discussion. Once again... How is helping people make an informed decision if you are only providing selective pieces of information? This is what you have said you want to do... But it is not what you are doing.
 

PurpleEyes

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I was referring to the fact that in keeping people informed you only seem to be informing people of one side of the argument. The historical hospitalisation data is highly supportive of the vaccines ability to keep people out of hospital... And yet you ignore that or are critical of me bringing it up.

I was liking bloods statement of bringing further data into the discussion in response to the other thread (which I did see BTW).

I have not danced around dubbing anyone an anti vaxxer. In fact, if you look at my posting history on this forum I've been critical of people who do just that. I stand by my statement that those who have chosen not to be vaccinated at this point are not hesitant any more but rather just not going to get a covid vax. This does not make them 'anti vaxxers'. Bringing this into the discussion only inflames the discussion and is not helpful.

It is not at all appropriate to use a statement made in 2020 against what we are seeing now as "sales talk". The landscape has changed dramatically since that statement.

Frustratingly, you have also completely ignored the comments around comparing covid vax adverse effects to flu (or any other historical vaccine for that matter) vax adverse effects. There's been no acknowledgement of the fact that one has been thoroughly surveyed while the other has not at all, making comparisons flawed. Instead you just stonewalled that fact and moved into another area of discussion. Once again... How is helping people make an informed decision if you are only providing selective pieces of information? This is what you have said you want to do... But it is not what you are doing.

I ignored hospitalisation data because I didn't believe it was relevant to my initial post about disproportionate NSW case numbers.

You may have liked bloods for other reasons, but you went out of your way to criticise my flawed approach, but said nothing about his and you still haven't even after I highlight the hypocrisy of it.

Good onya for avoiding the antivax label. I apologise for making that assumption.

Yep, very appropriate to be critical of Pfizer sales talk of Nov '20 when we are still being coerced and mandated to take the very same vaccines that are no longer as effective.

I have nothing to ignore regarding the flu safety data on AusVaxSafety.
For you to focus on that non-issue is simple distraction and strawman tactics to get away from my initial posts about startling recent NSW case numbers and the startling differences between Switzerland's reporting of vaccine adverse reactions vs other real world data as shown by AusVaxSafety for Covid-19 vaccines. AusVaxSafety have reported on over 200k influenza surveys across Australia to show a relative percentage of participants who had one or more adverse reactions and required a medical attendance ... it is fair and reasonable to compare those to the Covid-19 results, regardless of your fascination with the specifics.
And if it is still something that you are unable to accept ... then forget it, not a worry to me because if you make the effort you will see the AusVaxSafety Covid-19 safety data, with or without the influenza considerations is still startling compared to the Switzerland data. The Switzerland data is even startling compared to Pfizer's data.
 

Gruffles

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I ignored hospitalisation data because I didn't believe it was relevant to my initial post about disproportionate NSW case numbers.

You may have liked bloods for other reasons, but you went out of your way to criticise my flawed approach, but said nothing about his and you still haven't even after I highlight the hypocrisy of it.

Good onya for avoiding the antivax label. I apologise for making that assumption.

Yep, very appropriate to be critical of Pfizer sales talk of Nov '20 when we are still being coerced and mandated to take the very same vaccines that are no longer as effective.

I have nothing to ignore regarding the flu safety data on AusVaxSafety.
For you to focus on that non-issue is simple distraction and strawman tactics to get away from my initial posts about startling recent NSW case numbers and the startling differences between Switzerland's reporting of vaccine adverse reactions vs other real world data as shown by AusVaxSafety for Covid-19 vaccines. AusVaxSafety have reported on over 200k influenza surveys across Australia to show a relative percentage of participants who had one or more adverse reactions and required a medical attendance ... it is fair and reasonable to compare those to the Covid-19 results, regardless of your fascination with the specifics.
And if it is still something that you are unable to accept ... then forget it, not a worry to me because if you make the effort you will see the AusVaxSafety Covid-19 safety data, with or without the influenza considerations is still startling compared to the Switzerland data. The Switzerland data is even startling compared to Pfizer's data.

As others have mentioned... We have no information as to the mechanisms of Switzerland's data collection. In my opinion... The data seems pretty average/limited so I would be disregarding it rather than spending too much energy questioning it when there is other data available.

FWIW, anyone trying to mathematically manipulate the limited data we have to suit an argument, whether that is for or against vaccination, is wasting their time. Numbers can always be manipulated to suit a stance... That doesn't make the stance correct. Unless we have all of the information... All this attempted analysis is very weak.

I only focused on the issue because of your total lack of acknowledgement of it. It's not much of a discussion if you don't actually hear the other person talking. FWIW, I still don't consider it strawmaning or distracting but rather relevant to the statement of comparison, which you made, but this is an agree to disagree situation.

And no... I still don't think it's appropriate focusing on a statement made in 2020 in reference to today's situation. This is all we have at the moment while they work on a vaccine that will combat omicron.

Do you acknowledge that the NSW data shows a clear indication of the vaccine preventing hospitalisation and serious illness late last year?
 
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PurpleEyes

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As others have mentioned... We have no information as to the mechanisms of Switzerland's data collection. In my opinion... The data seems pretty average/limited so I would be disregarding it rather than spending too much energy questioning it when there is other data available.

FWIW, anyone trying to mathematically manipulate the limited data we have to suit an argument, whether that is for or against vaccination, is wasting their time. Numbers can always be manipulated to suit a stance... That doesn't make the stance correct. Unless we have all of the information... All this attempted analysis is very weak.

I only focused on the issue because of your total lack of acknowledgement of it. It's not much of a discussion if you don't actually hear the other person talking. FWIW, I still don't consider it strawmaning or distracting but rather relevant to the statement of comparison, which you made, but this is an agree to disagree situation.

And no... I still don't think it's appropriate focusing on a statement made in 2020 in reference to today's situation. This is all we have at the moment while they work on a vaccine that will combat omicron.

Do you acknowledge that the NSW data shows a clear indication of the vaccine preventing hospitalisation and serious illness late last year?

The official health reports that I reference show reductions in hospitalisations, ICU & Deaths supporting the position that the Covid-19 vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and deaths.
Do I trust them? No. Because I find lots of faults and inaccuracies in them.
Is that me totally dismissing them? No, I do currently believe the vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and death (significantly for some age demographics, not so much for others). A month or two ago (ie. Delta variant data) I was even more convinced than I am now.
I think Omicron and the long term effects of the vaccines on immune systems is starting to impact that effectiveness.

NSW Health produce two weekly reports that often have vastly different numbers for hospitalisation, ICU & Deaths grouped by vaccination status.
And I am seeing that data trending against the vaccine effectiveness in all areas (ie. cases, hospitalisations, ICUs and Deaths).

So it's fair to say I am extremely skeptical of data being reported.
In this thread I have highlighted or at least discussed falacies in the Switzerland data, AusVaxSafety data, recording and reporting of Australian Covid-19 deaths (for 0-19 year olds). I don't even trust those NSW case numbers I presented.
 

DERIBERATE

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In general, I encourage people to critically analyse statistics.
I don't believe the AusVaxSafety data to be 100% accurate.
In fact, I have strong evidence to indicate they manipulate some of the data they present.
But like any statistics regarding Covid-19, I look at the numbers presented and try to see if they can be supported by other evidence.
The Switzerland 0.06% does not pass the sniff test as well as the AusVaxSafety data does.

Regarding the AusVaxSafety seeking medical attendance statistics, there is a significant difference in these numbers being reported to indicate that they are closely correlated to the vaccine and dose. The table below is a summary of the AusVaxSafety data for the Covid-19 vaccines;

View attachment 1316991

And again, if you search the AusVaxSafety website you will find other vaccines monitored are generally around the 0.2-0.4% mark for requiring medical attendance.
(NB: Pfizer's Dose 3 for required medical attendance was 1.3% prior to AusVaxSafety taking a month off over Christmas. When they returned, that number had dropped to 0.8%)

I doubt most of the Covid-19 statistics I see. None of it is perfect and we can all pick faults in the data if we look for it.
Australia's official Covid-19 death statistics are obviously inaccurate when I see the likes of a 15year old Sydney boy who dies from pneumococcal meningitis but because he was Covid-19 positive he gets recorded and reported as a Covid-19 death.
Whip that one in google sheets yourself?

Gotta say I'm staggered at how overrepresented people with sore arms are in the vaccinated group as opposed to non vaccinated, there has to be something there. Self reporting survey and possibly skewed results I know, but I just feel like I betrayed science by telling my mrs I had an ouchy and making her cook dinner when I really ought to have phoned it in to the government
 

azlou

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I like the spirit of this thread so thought I'd put some of my own personal thoughts, props to the OP. Grateful to anyone that takes the time to think through this if it isn't a perspective they've considered. Please don't be too dismissive or feel this is inconsequential in relation to the medical aspect of this question - if you are it will only entrench this view further.

I won't claim to speak on the merits or otherwise of the vaccine itself from a medical point of view, apart from to say that they have been oversold and failed to deliver on their initial claims of reduced infection and transmission - a significant rationale behind the related restrictions and segregation. The main 'pro' as I can see it, is the reduced severity of disease - leading to reduced hospitalisations and deaths (nothing to scoff at).

However, alongside various failures of the public health profession when it comes to the damage caused by lockdowns, ignoring natural immunity, masks, mandates, job loss, and the inability to consider and weigh broader social / political / economic impacts, the distrust of public health authorities is (sadly) justified and has probably done more to fuel anti-vax sentiment than the antivaxxers.

Unfortunately, these issues are tied together in my mind, particularly as vaccines were politically framed as the only way out of the pandemic. But a one size fits all approach to vaccines (and lockdowns / other restrictions) fails to take into account individuals risk factors, i.e. age, BMI, Vitamin D for starters. I'd be very comfortable without a vaccine myself, as I'm sure many people my age and health would be. It just isn't a compelling need, and I don't see the point of taking medicine that you don't, in all likelihood, need at all. As infectiousness of new variants goes up and severity goes down, that equation continues to swing in the "why bother vaccinating" way.

My political philosophy is that individual choice in this matter should be paramount, that consent and persuasion are much better than coercion, and that coercive policies such as mandates, exclusion from society, and threat of job loss are a far greater evil and harm than the virus itself. I know others that have much firmer views than me about the safety of the vaccine itself and, whether justified or not, this causes them tremendous anxiety and mental distress. Even to take something reluctantly under coercion - job loss, social shaming, bullying, segregation - if contrary to one's conscience and convictions, is itself incredibly damaging to their sense of agency and integrity. I think we have lost our sense of humanity through the pandemic and that is incredibly damaging to our communities and society.

I could easily imagine some people would refuse to take it out of solidarity with those who are concerned about it or the other political / social / conscience reasons I've mentioned. I hate the authoritarian measures, the gaslighting by politicians, the panic-porn in the media, and the precedent this has set to dispense with democratic norms, civil liberties, personal freedoms, and the invasion of people's privacy and personal medical decisions. And I think these measures are politically much more difficult to maintain when you have 20-30% of people partially / unvaccinated rather than 2-3% - if you like, their presence in a society is something of a bulwark that acts as a check against the worst excesses of Covid-related policies. For that reason, I commend those who have chosen not to get vaccinated on conscience / political grounds, however small their individual contribution is at such significant cost to themselves.
I disagree on the humanity issue I’ve been heartened by how Australians have responded to the pandemic
I thought we where larrikin’s anti authority born of the eureka stockade
We do have a healthy questioning of authority but we banded together on a whole we looked after those that couldn’t look after themselves the mark of a great country
Through staying home wearing masks and having a very high vaccination rate
We saved the lives of thousands of overweight parents and brothers uncles with asthma
There have been a minority of misguided folk but we have successfully corralled them for the common good
We have maintained faith in our institutions
Compare that to America and they have completely split down political lines
They are now having an average flu season every week 300000 deaths they have lost faith in there institutions and have subsequently failed in there approach
The pandemic should have united them but they divided
We stayed strong young helping old
I judge countries by an overly simple criteria are people trying to get in or out
and how they look after those that can’t look after themselves
I have my criticisms of the Federal government it seems ridiculous that big business wasn’t means tested to see if they needed the billions passed out the Health institutions for not utilising rapid tests earlier
But on a whole I have been proud of the Australian publics response to use critical thinking and common sense to navigate through such a difficult fluid crisis
 

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azlou

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Show me where my maths is wrong.

We are currently seeing a disproportionate number of vaccinated cases.
Which indicates the vaccines are not as effective as we were told.
Nov '20, Pfizer told us 1 dose, 28 days, 95% effective.
A year later, in some countries they have approved a 4th dose and offer no guarantees of effectiveness above 50% for more than a couple of months.
This is why some, like myself are vaccine hesitant. The difference between the sales talk and real world are startling.
With time, we become better informed ... hence vaccine hesitancy.
I can go out tomorrow and get vaccinated, I can not go out the day after and get unvaccinated.

I supported my mother getting the influenza vaccine.
I had done my research and found the risk/benefit of the flu jab was beneficial for certain age demographics in certain environments.
My elderly mother was in a nursing home at the time.
I'm horses for courses with vaccines.
I live in WA. We have not had one single Covid-19 death since early May '20.
With the benefit of time, so far, my judgement not to be vaccinated has been correct.
And now we have the Omicron variant in Australia and the statistical chances of that killing me even if I find myself infected is very low ... less than 1 in 1,000 for my age and health (even if unvaccinated). I have far more chance of dying from other causes.

So am I telling you that you shouldn't get vaccinated for Covid-19 ... heck no.
I want people to make their own informed decision.
That's why you can call me anti-mandate and that would be true.
You can even say I'm anti-Covid-19-vax with my current beliefs for my personal current environment and that would be true.
But to generalise and call me antivax is making an assumption that is not true.
One thing you are alluding to is true Pfizer is probably the most unethical pharma company on the planet and you should be very sceptical of what they say
But independent institutions have rated there vaccines as excellent
 

Drought Break

Club Legend
May 5, 2015
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The official health reports that I reference show reductions in hospitalisations, ICU & Deaths supporting the position that the Covid-19 vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and deaths.
Do I trust them? No. Because I find lots of faults and inaccuracies in them.
Is that me totally dismissing them? No, I do currently believe the vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and death (significantly for some age demographics, not so much for others). A month or two ago (ie. Delta variant data) I was even more convinced than I am now.
I think Omicron and the long term effects of the vaccines on immune systems is starting to impact that effectiveness.

NSW Health produce two weekly reports that often have vastly different numbers for hospitalisation, ICU & Deaths grouped by vaccination status.
And I am seeing that data trending against the vaccine effectiveness in all areas (ie. cases, hospitalisations, ICUs and Deaths).

So it's fair to say I am extremely skeptical of data being reported.
In this thread I have highlighted or at least discussed falacies in the Switzerland data, AusVaxSafety data, recording and reporting of Australian Covid-19 deaths (for 0-19 year olds). I don't even trust those NSW case numbers I presented.
Their was a day on the 18th january I believe where NSW health revealed 36 deaths of which 33 were fully vaccinated. Then other days where they wont give any breakdown. I am with you in being skeptical on data released. Victoria on their deadliest day last year (cant recall the amount of deaths) a reporter asked the question to the health official doing press release as to the figures of deaths for vaccinated to un. He replied, we have those figures but wont reveal them.
 

kingswood71

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 18, 2010
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Their was a day on the 18th january I believe where NSW health revealed 36 deaths of which 33 were fully vaccinated. Then other days where they wont give any breakdown. I am with you in being skeptical on data released. Victoria on their deadliest day last year (cant recall the amount of deaths) a reporter asked the question to the health official doing press release as to the figures of deaths for vaccinated to un. He replied, we have those figures but wont reveal them.
21 deaths in no effective dose group from 3552 cases (omicron era, Nov 25 to jan 8)
67 deaths in fully vaccinated from 267381 cases in same period.
Unvaccinated case fatality rate: 0.59%
Vaccinated case fatality rate: 0.02%
0.59% seems way higher than 0.02%.........
You want to discuss the over representation of unvaccinated in hospital admissions too?
 

azlou

Club Legend
Mar 31, 2010
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hampton
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I
One thing you are alluding to is true Pfizer is probably the most unethical pharma company on the planet and you should be very sceptical of what they say
But independent institutions have rated there vaccines as excellent

It seems from this article Pfizer instigated vaccine hesitancy without foundation in regards to Astra they lied for profit
One of the early anti vaxers
 

Gruffles

Club Legend
Feb 25, 2009
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Melbourne
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The official health reports that I reference show reductions in hospitalisations, ICU & Deaths supporting the position that the Covid-19 vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and deaths.
Do I trust them? No. Because I find lots of faults and inaccuracies in them.
Is that me totally dismissing them? No, I do currently believe the vaccines are effective at reducing serious illness and death (significantly for some age demographics, not so much for others). A month or two ago (ie. Delta variant data) I was even more convinced than I am now.
I think Omicron and the long term effects of the vaccines on immune systems is starting to impact that effectiveness.

NSW Health produce two weekly reports that often have vastly different numbers for hospitalisation, ICU & Deaths grouped by vaccination status.
And I am seeing that data trending against the vaccine effectiveness in all areas (ie. cases, hospitalisations, ICUs and Deaths).

So it's fair to say I am extremely skeptical of data being reported.
In this thread I have highlighted or at least discussed falacies in the Switzerland data, AusVaxSafety data, recording and reporting of Australian Covid-19 deaths (for 0-19 year olds). I don't even trust those NSW case numbers I presented.
So is there any data in regards to the vaccine that you aren't skeptical about?

Just so you know, I'm all for people being informed and all for people helping to inform people. However, when the information coming from these "helping" people is all one-sided in it's delivery then it's not informing people well, rather, it's pushing an agenda.
 

kingswood71

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 18, 2010
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Australia.
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West Perth.
NSW Health produce two weekly reports that often have vastly different numbers for hospitalisation, ICU & Deaths grouped by vaccination status.
And I am seeing that data trending against the vaccine effectiveness in all areas (ie. cases, hospitalisations, ICUs and Deaths).
Links to 2 weekly reports showing vastly different data?
 

Red Black and Blue

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Oct 1, 2006
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21 deaths in no effective dose group from 3552 cases (omicron era, Nov 25 to jan 8)
67 deaths in fully vaccinated from 267381 cases in same period.
Unvaccinated case fatality rate: 0.59%
Vaccinated case fatality rate: 0.02%
0.59% seems way higher than 0.02%.........
You want to discuss the over representation of unvaccinated in hospital admissions too?

Are there different datasets for unvaccinated and jabbed within the 14 day window (no effective dose)?
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
20,259
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AFL Club
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One thing you are alluding to is true Pfizer is probably the most unethical pharma company on the planet and you should be very sceptical of what they say
But independent institutions have rated there vaccines as excellent


To be clear;

Pfizer did not develop the vaccine they manufacture.

BioNTech developed it. Pfizer make it.

Astra-Zeneca did not develop the vaccine they manufacture.

Oxford developed it. Astra-Zeneca make it.
 

kingswood71

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 18, 2010
7,657
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Australia.
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Other Teams
West Perth.
Are there different datasets for unvaccinated and jabbed within the 14 day window (no effective dose)?
Screenshot at 2022-01-28 07-17-26.png
 

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