NO TROLLS What is the actual case against COVID Vaccination?

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branedotorg

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small point; at his age you could complete internship and go directly into general practice. A lot of these practicising docs later were grandfathered into the college of GPs or sat the exam without needing to do a full training program (given the work done) so it could help fit the timeline
Fairly sure that doctor is from Zimbabwe or Namibia if we're still talking about the Gold coast weight management doc letter of protest.
 

Proper Gander

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Back to the case against Covid vaccination: there is a bloke I used to work with who is a bit of a hippy type - moved up north very recently to live the communal life somewhere. His take is based more or less around nature taking its course being somehow better for the planet. Now to his credit he is walking the talk. Vegan organic (against the impacts of mass animal farming), takes exercise - keen runner. Takes stairs rather than lifts etc.

The justification for this stance is a somewhat unsourced view (?) that vaccination causes the same problems as existing in a too-sterile environment. Certainly there is scientific support for the notion of the rise in allergies and conditions like asthma being in part a lack of exposure to your regular dirt and bacteria especially as a child, which in turn may impact the proper development of immunity. So his two unvaxed kids are eating mud pies and so forth, running around in dirt and to be fair look pretty healthy on the whole, though I do think it’s time he started getting them to wear pants in company. Plus he should get their teeth checked pretty regularly since they live off rainwater absent of fluoride. And thyroid checks too if they are low on iodine consumption only using raw salt etc. Probably other stuff I haven’t thought of too.

While this attitude sounds far less batzo then 5G stuff, or a conspiracy of government taking control, I’m unconvinced on a couple of counts. Firstly I’m not sure that vaccine protection is comparable to the mud pie lifestyle, and if widely adopted seems to tolerate devastating conditions like polio and viruses like smallpox.

I’m also a bit concerned about his young children being included in the experimental lifestyle excluding vaccination, this is a bit of an issue with all anti-vaccination types since you are potentially subjecting children to risks where they are too young, and have insufficient information, to make their own choices.
 

pride of the West

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I'd be interested to see some numbers on how omicron is affecting the unvaxxed. I'm sure somebody is looking at that in isolation somewhere, but the only way to compare it to delta is by looking at the unvaxxed.
Is omicron being considered less dangerous because the majority who are getting it are fully vaxxed and therefore having a milder reaction with less hospitalisation? Or is it also presenting as a milder variant in the unvaxxed? I haven't really looked into it.
It’s less on both fronts.
Each variant is more contagious then the last but slightly less deadly then before.
 

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Lavender Bushranger

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Back to the case against Covid vaccination: there is a bloke I used to work with who is a bit of a hippy type - moved up north very recently to live the communal life somewhere. His take is based more or less around nature taking its course being somehow better for the planet. Now to his credit he is walking the talk. Vegan organic (against the impacts of mass animal farming), takes exercise - keen runner. Takes stairs rather than lifts etc.

The justification for this stance is a somewhat unsourced view (?) that vaccination causes the same problems as existing in a too-sterile environment. Certainly there is scientific support for the notion of the rise in allergies and conditions like asthma being in part a lack of exposure to your regular dirt and bacteria especially as a child, which in turn may impact the proper development of immunity. So his two unvaxed kids are eating mud pies and so forth, running around in dirt and to be fair look pretty healthy on the whole, though I do think it’s time he started getting them to wear pants in company. Plus he should get their teeth checked pretty regularly since they live off rainwater absent of fluoride. And thyroid checks too if they are low on iodine consumption only using raw salt etc. Probably other stuff I haven’t thought of too.

While this attitude sounds far less batzo then 5G stuff, or a conspiracy of government taking control, I’m unconvinced on a couple of counts. Firstly I’m not sure that vaccine protection is comparable to the mud pie lifestyle, and if widely adopted seems to tolerate devastating conditions like polio and viruses like smallpox.

I’m also a bit concerned about his young children being included in the experimental lifestyle excluding vaccination, this is a bit of an issue with all anti-vaccination types since you are potentially subjecting children to risks where they are too young, and have insufficient information, to make their own choices.
I have no issue with people taking this stance.

Good for them.

As I've said before though, it's the justifications that bother me.

The concept that argue with people about, is when they roll with the 'let the immune system do what it's meant to and we'll all be fine'.

The life expectancy before modern medicine was probably about 25 FFS.

I think it's a myth that the human body is some sort of impenetrable machine that will live forever if we eat well and exercise. I think that's bullshit.

Indigenous people were f’ed when Europeans arrived and brought viruses with them that their immune systems had not been exposed to.

It wiped out heaps of them.

So although I certainly don't think that a healthy lifestyle is a bad thing, I think it's nonsense that it's the answer.
 
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pride of the West

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I have been arguing with my wife for a while now as she does not want me to get Vaccinated as she believes the Vaccines have been designed to cause long term harm to the human race (similarly with the WUHAN lab leak), most of this information comes from her family (Conspirators) and she refers to Dr P Mccullough frequently.

In short we simply do not reach the same conclusion which is starting the effect our relationship, we don’t have children but im out of ideas how to change her mind. Or at least respect my right to look after my own body.
You should have never been put into this situation in the first place.
Does she work ect cause if she does could affect household income that chat might need to be had. Hope it’s works out.
 

Brad Goodman

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I have been arguing with my wife for a while now as she does not want me to get Vaccinated as she believes the Vaccines have been designed to cause long term harm to the human race (similarly with the WUHAN lab leak), most of this information comes from her family (Conspirators) and she refers to Dr P Mccullough frequently.

In short we simply do not reach the same conclusion which is starting the effect our relationship, we don’t have children but im out of ideas how to change her mind. Or at least respect my right to look after my own body.

Get a divorce, that woman deserves loneliness.
 

Big Animal

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Back to the case against Covid vaccination: there is a bloke I used to work with who is a bit of a hippy type - moved up north very recently to live the communal life somewhere. His take is based more or less around nature taking its course being somehow better for the planet. Now to his credit he is walking the talk. Vegan organic (against the impacts of mass animal farming), takes exercise - keen runner. Takes stairs rather than lifts etc.

The justification for this stance is a somewhat unsourced view (?) that vaccination causes the same problems as existing in a too-sterile environment. Certainly there is scientific support for the notion of the rise in allergies and conditions like asthma being in part a lack of exposure to your regular dirt and bacteria especially as a child, which in turn may impact the proper development of immunity. So his two unvaxed kids are eating mud pies and so forth, running around in dirt and to be fair look pretty healthy on the whole, though I do think it’s time he started getting them to wear pants in company. Plus he should get their teeth checked pretty regularly since they live off rainwater absent of fluoride. And thyroid checks too if they are low on iodine consumption only using raw salt etc. Probably other stuff I haven’t thought of too.

While this attitude sounds far less batzo then 5G stuff, or a conspiracy of government taking control, I’m unconvinced on a couple of counts. Firstly I’m not sure that vaccine protection is comparable to the mud pie lifestyle, and if widely adopted seems to tolerate devastating conditions like polio and viruses like smallpox.

I’m also a bit concerned about his young children being included in the experimental lifestyle excluding vaccination, this is a bit of an issue with all anti-vaccination types since you are potentially subjecting children to risks where they are too young, and have insufficient information, to make their own choices.
he's right about the too-sterile environment with respect to allergies but unlikely to be right about this being relevant to vaccines.

I was in cell signaling and cancer research but the asthma and allergy institute was next door and we had enough seminars to appreciate that they were very much onto this theory. Basically when you are born, one type of antibody, the IgE which is involved in mediating allergic/inflammatory pathways to deal with toxins and parasites develops an initial library of IgE antibody molecules to different antigens that the body is first exposed to. This worked great for thousands of years from an immune system point of view when most peoples lived in villages, towns, etc. most of their lives and didn't travel far and the pathogens they were exposed to at birth were not much different than the ones they were exposed to throughout their lives. As we know from history books, things went pretty pear shaped whenever invaders/explorers came from distant places bringing new pathogens the immune systems of locals were not prepared for.

In recent decades of global travel our immune systems have had to work overtime throughout our lives as we are constantly bombarded with new pathogens of various types from all over the globe. The western 'sterile' environment for newborns hasn't helped either with IgE libraries having to be made against something in the child's environment, and in the absence of sufficient pathogens, the body will make IgE antibodies against other antigens it is exposed to including foods and allergens. Hence the rise of allergies and asthma in recent decades. So, I also had my 3 kids play in the mud, the dogs licked their faces, they went to the cess pit that is day care, we didn't worm them (IgE loves nematodes) and thankfully none of them have any allergies at all.

On the other hand all a vaccine does is prime the body's immune system so that it is ready for immediate action upon infection by having B-cell and T-cell mechanisms at the ready. Upon infection immediate immune response enables the virus or other pathogen to be killed off as soon as possible or at least to a controlled level before it can replicate in sufficient numbers to cause significant damage within the body. Much like a previous infection primes the immune system of the body for a later infection with the same virus. Not aware of any scientific reason as to why a sterile or non-sterile environment would assist one way or the other. I can't imagine how it would.
 
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Proper Gander

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he's right about the too-sterile environment with respect to allergies but unlikely to be right about this being relevant to vaccines.

I was in cell signaling and cancer research but the asthma and allergy institute was next door and we had enough seminars to appreciate that they were very much onto this theory. Basically when you are born, one type of antibody, the IgE which is involved in mediating allergic/inflammatory pathways to deal with toxins and parasites develops an initial library of IgE antibody molecules to different antigens that the body is first exposed to. This worked great for thousands of years from an immune system point of view when most peoples lived in villages, towns, etc. most of the lives and didn't travel far and the pathogens they were exposed to at birth were not much different than the ones they were exposed to throughout their lives. As we know from history books, things went pretty pear shaped whenever invaders/explorers came from distant places bringing new pathogens the immune systems of locals were not prepared for.

In recent decades of global travel our immune systems have had to work overtime throughout our lives as we are constantly bombarded with new pathogens of various types from all over the globe. The western 'sterile' environment for newborns hasn't helped either with IgE libraries having to be made against something in the child's environment, and in the absence of sufficient pathogens, the body will make IgE antibodies against other antigens it is exposed to including foods and allergens. Hence the rise of allergies and asthma in recent decades. So, I also had my 3 kids play in the mud, the dogs licked their faces, they went to the cess pit that is day care, we didn't worm them (IgE loves nematodes) and thankfully none of them have any allergies at all.

On the other hand all a vaccine does is prime the body's immune system so that it is ready for immediate action upon infection by having B-cell and T-cell mechanisms at the ready. Upon infection immediate immune response enables the virus or other pathogen to be killed off as soon as possible or at least to a controlled level before it can replicate in sufficient numbers to cause significant damage within the body. Much like a previous infection primes the immune system of the body for a later infection with the same virus. Not aware of any scientific reason as to why a sterile or non-sterile environment would assist one way or the other. I can't imagine how it would.
Thank you. That’s very interesting. I too spent a lot of time in dirt and around dogs and cats and seem to have escaped the problematic food allergies, which can be pretty dangerous
 

Forward Press

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he's right about the too-sterile environment with respect to allergies but unlikely to be right about this being relevant to vaccines.

I was in cell signaling and cancer research but the asthma and allergy institute was next door and we had enough seminars to appreciate that they were very much onto this theory. Basically when you are born, one type of antibody, the IgE which is involved in mediating allergic/inflammatory pathways to deal with toxins and parasites develops an initial library of IgE antibody molecules to different antigens that the body is first exposed to. This worked great for thousands of years from an immune system point of view when most peoples lived in villages, towns, etc. most of their lives and didn't travel far and the pathogens they were exposed to at birth were not much different than the ones they were exposed to throughout their lives. As we know from history books, things went pretty pear shaped whenever invaders/explorers came from distant places bringing new pathogens the immune systems of locals were not prepared for.

In recent decades of global travel our immune systems have had to work overtime throughout our lives as we are constantly bombarded with new pathogens of various types from all over the globe. The western 'sterile' environment for newborns hasn't helped either with IgE libraries having to be made against something in the child's environment, and in the absence of sufficient pathogens, the body will make IgE antibodies against other antigens it is exposed to including foods and allergens. Hence the rise of allergies and asthma in recent decades. So, I also had my 3 kids play in the mud, the dogs licked their faces, they went to the cess pit that is day care, we didn't worm them (IgE loves nematodes) and thankfully none of them have any allergies at all.

On the other hand all a vaccine does is prime the body's immune system so that it is ready for immediate action upon infection by having B-cell and T-cell mechanisms at the ready. Upon infection immediate immune response enables the virus or other pathogen to be killed off as soon as possible or at least to a controlled level before it can replicate in sufficient numbers to cause significant damage within the body. Much like a previous infection primes the immune system of the body for a later infection with the same virus. Not aware of any scientific reason as to why a sterile or non-sterile environment would assist one way or the other. I can't imagine how it would.

I appreciate the effort that went into this post that tries to make a complex topic relatable to the more simple folk and that you actually did your own research.
 

Chief

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So, I also had my 3 kids play in the mud, the dogs licked their faces, they went to the cess pit that is day care, we didn't worm them (IgE loves nematodes) and thankfully none of them have any allergies at all.
My kids have been wormed and didn't play in mud all that much.

They've not got any allergies either. I get that the details are outside my training and experience but I don't see any real difference with my kids.
 

Taylor

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My kids have been wormed and didn't play in mud all that much.

They've not got any allergies either. I get that the details are outside my training and experience but I don't see any real difference with my kids.
Do you have a dog or cat? That has also shown to be highly effective at reducing allergies later in life for the same reason.
 

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Toump Ass

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I have been arguing with my wife for a while now as she does not want me to get Vaccinated as she believes the Vaccines have been designed to cause long term harm to the human race (similarly with the WUHAN lab leak), most of this information comes from her family (Conspirators) and she refers to Dr P Mccullough frequently.

In short we simply do not reach the same conclusion which is starting the effect our relationship, we don’t have children but im out of ideas how to change her mind. Or at least respect my right to look after my own body.
If your wife has ownership of your body by virtue of your marriage, then it stands to reason that you would have ownership of hers.

Therefore, if I was in your position, I would agree to not get vaccinated, on the condition that she also did things to her body that were of my choosing.

Step 1: Demand she has "Daddy Jibroni" tattooed to her face. If she refuses, then you can refuse to remain unvaccinated.

This is what I like to call a "win/win" situation.
 

Chief

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There you go. They are good and grotty
$80 a groom, that dog better not be grotty!

We don't spray the house down with cleaners every five minutes like a couple of our friends, but we all get wormed and keep the place reasonably clean. I've never seen the need to go whole-hog grime to avoid allergies.
 

Proper Gander

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$80 a groom, that dog better not be grotty!

We don't spray the house down with cleaners every five minutes like a couple of our friends, but we all get wormed and keep the place reasonably clean. I've never seen the need to go whole-hog grime to avoid allergies.
I think that probably should suffice really. I suspect a lifestyle of eating random toxins while young is taking the whole idea a bit far. You should, obviously, ensure your children take up smoking asap though
 

owen87

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I think that probably should suffice really. I suspect a lifestyle of eating random toxins while young is taking the whole idea a bit far. You should, obviously, ensure your children take up smoking asap though

The quicker their lungs are filled with tar, the quicker there's no room for anything else in there.
 

Proper Gander

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The quicker their lungs are filled with tar, the quicker there's no room for anything else in there.
Interestingly:

I was a smoker for a long time (waaaay too long). When I finally succeeded in quitting your body has some interesting reactions. I used the gum to make the nicotine withdrawal manageable (still chomp it after all these years -I think I would need to take up smoking to quit the gum now).

Otherwise though, for the first few weeks I was coughing all the time and very congested. My breathing at night sounded like I had a symphony of Meerkats living in my chest cavity, all using a Geiger counter.

I figured that this was a result of my newly clean lungs clearing the years of toxic slush build-up or something. Once I got though it, I went through another 6 months of sneezing and nose tickling stuff like hay fever. I haven’t exactly researched the phenomenon but I had the feeling that removing the gross pollutants that my body was making a full-time job of managing created a vacuum where my immune system had to find an alternative occupation.
 

catscollector

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I have no issue with people taking this stance.

Good for them.

As I've said before though, it's the justifications that bother me.

The concept that argue with people about, is when they roll with the 'let the immune system do what it's meant to and we'll all be fine'.

The life expectancy before modern medicine was probably about 25 FFS.

I think it's a myth that the human body is some sort of impenetrable machine that will live forever if we eat well and exercise. I think that's bullshit.

Indigenous people were f’ed when Europeans arrived and brought viruses with them that their immune systems had not been exposed to.

It wiped out heaps of them.

So although I certainly don't think that a healthy lifestyle is a bad thing, I think it's nonsense that it's the answer.

White people had better immune systems having spent a good thousand or more years traveling around the globe.
They also lived drastically different life styles which contributed to strong immunity over time.

It is why Aboriginal people have a lot of issues with alcohol having only been introduced to it fairly recently.

Again, this whole pandemic has been handled terribly.
The most vulnerable should have been vaccinated first and foremost and then options should have been given to the young and healthy.
 

azlou

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White people had better immune systems having spent a good thousand or more years traveling around the globe.
They also lived drastically different life styles which contributed to strong immunity over time.

It is why Aboriginal people have a lot of issues with alcohol having only been introduced to it fairly recently.

Again, this whole pandemic has been handled terribly.
The most vulnerable should have been vaccinated first and foremost and then options should have been given to the young and healthy.
Also mass use of rapid tests distributed for free from the moment they where available This was well over a year ago
 

daniologist

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White people had better immune systems having spent a good thousand or more years traveling around the globe.
They also lived drastically different life styles which contributed to strong immunity over time.

It is why Aboriginal people have a lot of issues with alcohol having only been introduced to it fairly recently.

Again, this whole pandemic has been handled terribly.
The most vulnerable should have been vaccinated first and foremost and then options should have been given to the young and healthy.

Um, I'm only a biologist and my biochemistry knowledge is a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure alcohol is metabolised in the liver by the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme pathway which is not even remotely the same as immune responses...
 

catscollector

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Um, I'm only a biologist and my biochemistry knowledge is a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure alcohol is metabolised in the liver by the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme pathway which is not even remotely the same as immune responses...

I'm not associating drinking with immunity though.
I am implying there are indeed pretty significant different between races.
 

Crankyhawk

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Um, I'm only a biologist and my biochemistry knowledge is a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure alcohol is metabolised in the liver by the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme pathway which is not even remotely the same as immune responses...
There are varying levels of alcohol dehydrogenase between individuals and there are some racial tendencies (see Asian flush reaction where low levels of enzymes mean impaired / different alcohol metabolism causing undesirable side effects)
 

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