Opinion What is the main issue?

[Ned_Flanders]

Because they don't run for the first 2-3 quarters. We go out hard and can't run it out. We bludge and finish strong.

I don't think it's fitness though. Have we seen any of our players dead dog exhausted this season? Why aren't they running hard at the start? This was a strength, and now it's gone

Fwiw I think the guys are pausing when they would run previously, and it's not about tank. When there is nothing to lose, they start running and attacking, but not until then.

Initially I thought it was complacency, but I'm beginning to wonder if they are actually scared of screwing up (scars from the blues loss?). I honestly don't know, but IMO it reeks of an issue between the ears

Only good thing is if I'm right, once addressed it is a quick fix, but until then.....

 

[tigs2010]

I don't think it's fitness though. Have we seen any of our players dead dog exhausted this season? Why aren't they running hard at the start? This was a strength, and now it's gone

Fwiw I think the guys are pausing when they would run previously, and it's not about tank. When there is nothing to lose, they start running and attacking, but not until then.

Initially I thought it was complacency, but I'm beginning to wonder if they are actually scared of screwing up (scars from the blues loss?). I honestly don't know, but IMO it reeks of an issue between the ears

Only good thing is if I'm right, once addressed it is a quick fix, but until then.....

Yes, whenever we have to chase we look like we just can't go anymore. I think it's both. Our fitness is garbage and we are mentally piss weak and can't push through any pain. We have no gut runners. Sounds like an exaggeration but I can't thin of one.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Yes, whenever we have to chase we look like we just can't go anymore. I think it's both. Our fitness is garbage and we are mentally piss weak and can't push through any pain. We have no gut runners. Sounds like an exaggeration but I can't thin of one.

Disagree with the conclusion. Yes when they are chasing they don't look like they can give any more, but they don't look knackered. At the end of the chase, are they on their knees sucking for air, or are they walking back hands on hips?

We seem to have speed when the pressure is off, so why not before?

If it was fitness this couldn't happen. They should be getting worse as the game progresses,mbecause even half efforts are draining their reserves.

Also we were doing it talk season, why not this season? A whole team doesn't become unfit with one preseason. They can get head****ed however.

 

[DrMike]

May as well become a Carlton mod if that's all you've got to as to the conversation. Rance and Lids played round 1 and that was a disgrace . Our injuries are not an excuse except for Maric. Hampson is 1 tenth the player Maric is. We have the cattle to cover Rance and Lids for a couple of games.

1. Falls to ground too often.
2. Doesn't impact enough over 4 quarters because he gets slammed every week by taggers.
3. Injury Issues.

Although best 22 players yes, it's not good enough, hawthorn, collingwood, essendon and north melbourne without ziebell and swallow. They still manage, why can't we? Shows our lack of depth

I'm not talking just injuries, the leadership and voice they show around the ground is seriously underrated.

 

[tigs2010]

Disagree with the conclusion. Yes when they are chasing they don't look like they can give any more, but they don't look knackered. At the end of the chase, are they on their knees sucking for air, or are they walking back hands on hips?

We seem to have speed when the pressure is off, so why not before?

If it was fitness this couldn't happen. They should be getting worse as the game progresses,mbecause even half efforts are draining their reserves.

Also we were doing it talk season, why not this season? A whole team doesn't become unfit with one preseason. They can get head****ed however.

Watch them closely. They are rooted. Look like they can't chase. GC game is a great example of them not being able to go anymore.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Watch them closely. They are rooted. Look like they can't chase. GC game is a great example of them not being able to go anymore.

Then how can they in the second half? As I said, none of them are on the grand stuffed after these chases. They are looking like they are trying, but I think something is stopping them going up a gear - which they suddenly can do when there is nothing to lose.

I think they are expecting to lose out to their man, which then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, and it's only when they stop thinking about how good the other guy is (or how shit they are) that they just chase for the sake of it, and run two ways for once.

This isn't 1-2 players off condition because of too manyjanuary bongs, most of the team is not running any more

 

[tigs2010]

Then how can they in the second half? As I said, none of them are on the grand stuffed after these chases. They are looking like they are trying, but I think something is stopping them going up a gear - which they suddenly can do when there is nothing to lose.

I think they are expecting to lose out to their man, which then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, and it's only when they stop thinking about how good the other guy is (or how shit they are) that they just chase for the sake of it, and run two ways for once.

This isn't 1-2 players off condition because of too manyjanuary bongs, most of the team is not running any more

Can't remember which thread I wrote it in but I think the players are bludging early in games now. I also agree it's mental. I just think that it's both.

 

[fightingfury]

It's really depressing that teams like north essendon and port have flown passed us, even doggies r just over our shoulder now

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Fear of expectation, playing on the mental ineptitude that gets incredibly dramatised in the media and the players can't help but feel the immense pressure from everyone to not fail.

Not taking the game on, not going up the middle, not running back, not keeping the forward line open.

When we are running forward from 60m out of goal we seem to stop, prop and fire a dinky floating kick that gets turned over. Or we handball back, and it gets turned over. We should have two forwards leading up from the square and kick with intent onto their chest.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Can't remember which thread I wrote it in but I think the players are bludging early in games now. I also agree it's mental. I just think that it's both.

I responded to that post separately, but your two views are incompatible. How can you be exhausted and leaving everything out there with every chase, if you also are holding back some juice to run out the game?

Too many issues reeked of doubt for me. We are not running into space knowing our men will find us. We are not backing our men to win the contest, so we hold possession. Everyone seems to be playing for themselves

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

Problems

1. Successful gameplan from 2012-2013 has been sabotaged by the coaches. Jack "up the ground", Martin in defense, Ellis "run with role" and Vickery the "go to man" while Jack is the decoy. Absolute madness. Biggest problem.

2. Selection table - coach picks his favorites, and they are constantly the same group of passengers that let us down - Grigg, Edwards, Vickery. Complacency is running riot through some of the playing group. Where's the kids ? Rotting in the VFL. Second biggest problem.

3. Match day coaching. Do the coaches watch the live telecast from home ? NOTHING done to stop macaffer on Friday night. Our guns played in the wrong position.

4. Kick in from a behind. Chip, chip, switch, chip turnover. It takes the backline 4-5 possessions to clear the ball from defensive 50m line. Looking upfield - NO ONE demands the footy. Stagnant LAZY footballers.

5. There's currently no confidence in each other. RARELY do you see a player DEMAND the ball. Exception is Cotchin and Martin. Forward line is stagnant as there is no open space to lead into because we take so long to move the ball, that our forward line becomes crowded. Could be a lack of fitness ?

Fixes

1. Go back to what worked. Jack at FF (tick), Martin in the guts and rested forward, Vickery dropped, Ellis allowed to take Grigg's role. Train harder and stop the media crap and get back into the gym.

2. Pick players who want to win and are not there for themselves. Drop Grigg, Edwards and Vickery NOW. Send a message. Start looking towards the kids - Madonna, Lennon, Arnot, McBean, Elton, Helbig, Dea, Bachelor. Pick them on form, not mateship.

3. DO SOMETHING. The ONLY coaching move that has worked has been moving Griffiths behind the ball against Carlton. Next time macaffer tags Cotchin, send the runner our to the mids and instruct them to help our skipper.

4. All in the head. PRESENT. Stop standing around waiting for another player to gift you the football. It is laughable. Watch Lloyd's first game - continually presented. What were our "stars" doing ? Develop a plan to move the ball out of defensive 50 quickly and efficiently.

5. Tempo footy. Teach the group how to play tempo footy. If the players can't adapt. Drop them. Attack the corridor when we have momentum. Stop chipping sideways when we have momentum. Stop turning the ball over with over possession when we have not got momentum.


We, as the supports don't know what is going on behind closed doors. We can only comment on what is presented on match day. CLEARLY we have gone backwards. Looking around us - GCS beat us in round 1 - Hawthorn smashed them on the same ground by 99 points. Our only win was against a second rate Carlton, and they just got beat by a side that lost 13 games in a row. The bottoms sides have improved in 2 years. We have gone backwards two years in the off season.

Bang bang. Spot on.

 

[theflea]

1. Falls to ground too often.
2. Doesn't impact enough over 4 quarters because he gets slammed every week by taggers.
3. Injury Issues.

As Lloyd said today, I will never bag Lids again as his influence(lack there of) is killing us.

 

[theflea]

I don't think it's fitness though. Have we seen any of our players dead dog exhausted this season? Why aren't they running hard at the start? This was a strength, and now it's gone

Fwiw I think the guys are pausing when they would run previously, and it's not about tank. When there is nothing to lose, they start running and attacking, but not until then.

Initially I thought it was complacency, but I'm beginning to wonder if they are actually scared of screwing up (scars from the blues loss?). I honestly don't know, but IMO it reeks of an issue between the ears

Only good thing is if I'm right, once addressed it is a quick fix, but until then.....

Whether its the key issue I don't know, but it definitely needs addressing. How many times have we seen half our mids not get to a stoppage because they are stuffed? Plenty imo and was a factor in the EF loss(and all of ours of late frankly).

 

[theflea]

Reason:
Lack of run and carry and/or intent to run and spread.

Why: Many things are conspiring to have the result we have right now. I think its a merging of being really tall at both ends(of which makes as slow), a want to play down the flanks and not use the whole ground or even the centre corridor, missing Lids and Rance who are quick(with the class and finesse of lids), plus the grunt of Maric in the centre, and that next level of fitness that the top sides have(we sometimes are so stuffed we cant get some many stoppages and set up properly).

Fix: We want to have 3 tall defenders(Rance is quick as well) and Rance can play the 3rd tall when required. This means we have to drop a 3rd tall from the fwd line. TV v BG and the way its going it must be TV. Then we must select a 3rd med tall who has pace/smarts and skill(lennon/Batchelor?). Lloyd looked good, bring in Madonna and play then both in the pockets. Have both Dusty and Gordon on the flanks. This should open the fwd line more, and also provide the midfield with run, and we can use BG as the 2nd ruck. We can then look to open the field up and not pidgeon hole where we want to play.

Players on notice Newman, Grigg, Edwards.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Whether its the key issue I don't know, but it definitely needs addressing. How many times have we seen half our mids not get to a stoppage because they are stuffed? Plenty imo and was a factor in the EF loss(and all of ours of late frankly).

That's my point though, I don't think they are stuffed. Think it's either they aren't working hard enough, or they have given up before they even try

 

[theflea]

That's my point though, I don't think they are stuffed. Think it's either they aren't working hard enough, or they have given up before they even try

Maybe but I would probably say that if you have done the work in the preseason, then your more likely not to give up so easily and you work thru it. I am still an advocate of doing things like the kakoda track so these boys get a flogging. As Vossy said, are fit compared to your own fitness, or to the best in the competition?

 

[Tigerland]

No intensity.
That means no gut running, no desperation, not good enough at smothering, tackling, chasing, running to space, running straight at opponents.

Basically we play like a lazy under 13's side coached by a simpleton.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Maybe but I would probably say that if you have done the work in the preseason, then your more likely not to give up so easily and you work thru it. I am still an advocate of doing things like the kakoda track so these boys get a flogging. As Vossy said, are fit compared to your own fitness, or to the best in the competition?

Last point is irrelevant for our situation. Our comparison is RFC 2013 to RFC 2014, nearly the same players, mostly the same coaches, and similar programs to previous years. It's not that they are not keeping up with the competition, they aren't keeping up with standards they maintained in previous seasons (with the same fitness PIC last year)

I'm wondering if a combination of sept failure and off season expectation has got these guys second guessing themselves. as I said to Tigs, they seem to be playing for themselves now, very unlike this list.

 

[sregit]

1. We have overrated the list. Far too many mediocre players. The Pies mid field is far superior to ours and we have been blinded by a little bit of improvement. The tigers require at least 2 more top line midfielders and a quality small forward. A good small defender with pace would not go astray also. We need to stop recruiting other teams cast offs. The club needs to be brave and back youngsters. Unfortunately we seem to have gone away from backing youth and are playing average older players in front of the kids.
2. Coach needs to have a look at the game plan. We continually over commit when moving forward and teams know it. We get scored against regularly by teams that defend and then hit over the top/back. Just look at the replays and it sticks out like dogs nuts.
3. We don't seem to know when a players time is up. Hate to say it but King / Newman / big O should not be played again.
4. Poor contracting. Richmond seems to re contract players and administration after just a couple of games. Why did Foley get such a long contract? Vickery should not have got a 2 year extension until he delivered something. The coach should have been made to deliver this year before getting a renewal. It just goes on and on.
5. Recruiting. Even though I agree with the commitment to pick the best available player with our first selection in the draft, it is obvious that we lack pace. I think it is time that we focused our second and subsequent picks on some blinding pace, just like the hawks did after losing to the swans in the 2012 GF.
Only draft players from other clubs who are A graders. Bombers got Goddard and Chapman. We pickup players who their club are happy to let go. List cloggers.

 

[theflea]

Last point is irrelevant for our situation. Our comparison is RFC 2013 to RFC 2014, nearly the same players, mostly the same coaches, and similar programs to previous years. It's not that they are not keeping up with the competition, they aren't keeping up with standards they maintained in previous seasons (with the same fitness PIC last year)

I'm wondering if a combination of sept failure and off season expectation has got these guys second guessing themselves. as I said to Tigs, they seem to be playing for themselves now, very unlike this list.

Disagree. You don't know that for a fact and are just assuming. We may have the same fitness as last year, just lost our mojo. But the point is valid if the rest of the comp has upgraded their fitness levels and we have stayed the same. Im sorry but that's the way I see it.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Get some serious leg speed into this side!!

like Matty White?????

 

[living_in_syd]

like Matty White?????

We offered better contracts to petterd and Grigg etc

Anyways, main issue is we changed our gameplay from exciting free running to a stoppage fest cos hardwick wanted us to 'control the footy more'. Too bad we keep turning it over.

 

[Livonski]

I love this Neen, it's what everyone is thinking , just can't see how the club didn't see it.

Jack played stay at home FF on Friday (didn't work), Ellis run with role against Carlton (votes), Martin had plenty of the ball thru the centre on Friday night...I find this line of thinking confusing, like you guys weren't there or didn't watch.

I think we have had a confidence loss that has put the runners on the back foot, reacting rather than taking the game on. Take that run out and the forwards have no chance. (Vickery included!) Throw in Lids, Rance, Maric and now the over reliance on Cotch and it's easy to see how we are under the pump.
It also means it can be turned around, and unlike some we don't have to immediately sack half the list. Anyone can look like a spud when the whole system is breaking down, but the domino will work the other way when we get up and going. Hopefully that happens soon.

 

[Hans McGregor]

We don't work hard enough. This is clear when we take kick outs. No one moves or tries to create space to kick/run into, so then we just continuously kick long to a contest, which is a win for the opposition, since everyone has figured out that we don't like contested footy (which is another story). I guess you could put this down to a lack of confidence? I really don't know, I'ts got me stumped that we've gotten this bad since last year...

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Disagree. You don't know that for a fact and are just assuming. We may have the same fitness as last year, just lost our mojo. But the point is valid if the rest of the comp has upgraded their fitness levels and we have stayed the same. Im sorry but that's the way I see it.

I have eyes. We we chasing last year, we aren't this year. Don't care if we catch them or not, most of our guys are not running two ways anymore.

Also last year we were attacking hard off the hb line. Remember Houli and Grigg were both tagged in games because it was working so well. Now, we sit and wait off hb. No run, no attack, no risk.

This is nothing about other teams over taking us, it's failing to even attempt to do the things we were doing last year