What is the problem with Kaiden Brand?

Collins-Langford-Ayres

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Shows that Hawthorn are quite poor in developing key defenders. After 5 years in the Hawks system, according to some posters Brand is still poor and can’t make the grade.
I think he's done ok for pick 66.

The reality is that we've hardly drafted any.

If you look at the players (and picks) who have been selected in key defensive positions in the All Australian team since 2010, they are: Rance (18), Talia (13), Hurley (5), Taylor (17), Thompson (37), McPharlin (10), Richards (27), Glass (11) and Reid (8).

You rarely get a very good key defender outside the top 2 rounds.
 

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OnTheRocks

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The easiest thing to defend is a forward line relying on a tall forward marking the ball. The hardest thing to defend is the same player who brings the ball down to small forwards, causing chaos.

And we did win a three peat of premierships without any forward consistently take contested marks in our forward line.
We did win 3 and I believe that is again possible but with a dominant marking forward. As frustrating as Daniher is for the scum he brings that bit of hope that all fans luv, big forward, big marks n big bags of goals.
 

crazywildhorse

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The easiest thing to defend is a forward line relying on a tall forward marking the ball. The hardest thing to defend is the same player who brings the ball down to small forwards, causing chaos.

And we did win a three peat of premierships without any forward consistently take contested marks in our forward line.
Yet we have massive issues trying to do so
 

thejockey

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I'm a bit on the fence with him , a few times I've thought we've found one and a few times he has looked out of his depth

We really need him to come good and he certainly has the physical tools for a key back . A few things that have worried me
- got torched on the lead by Hawkins a few times who wasn't exactly motoring
- looked lost and caught well out of position in transition a number of times , not exactly a great trait for a defender
- looks most comfortable when the ball is bombed on top of him , all fair and good if your in a gun side

Think we will a better idea at the end of this season
 

WireHawk

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I would like to see Brand get a solid run of games this year. He is in one week out the next. There is no continuity in his game. Leave him there for a while and if he doesn't work out at least he was given a good shot at it. He won't learn how to gel with his team mates if he's back and forth between Hawthorn and Box Hill.

I'd hate to see him leave for another club and work out well for them. It's not as if we have anyone else to play his role. Mirra and Frawley together as key position defenders makes me worried.
 

Hawk_francais

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Was waiting for this thread. Last time we played NM, Ben Brown absolutely pantsed Kaiden Brand. He didn't neutralise a single contest. It was no shock to me that he didn't get the call up. Needs to improve his one-on-one work, because his size is the only thing which sets him apart from other young defenders who can use the ball better than he does.
 

Brishawk

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I would like to see Brand get a solid run of games this year. He is in one week out the next. There is no continuity in his game. Leave him there for a while and if he doesn't work out at least he was given a good shot at it. He won't learn how to gel with his team mates if he's back and forth between Hawthorn and Box Hill.

I'd hate to see him leave for another club and work out well for them. It's not as if we have anyone else to play his role. Mirra and Frawley together as key position defenders makes me worried.
To be fair to the selectors and brand, brand lacked match fitness when he played this year after an interrupted preseason. We will know more about where he stands in a few weeks time if his form is good at box hill and Frawley doesn’t improve.
 

TallyHawk

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The easiest thing to defend is a forward line relying on a tall forward marking the ball. The hardest thing to defend is the same player who brings the ball down to small forwards, causing chaos.

And we did win a three peat of premierships without any forward consistently take contested marks in our forward line.
That's interesting we had enormous difficulty trying to stop Ben Brown.

If Brand isn't selected to play on Daniher next week he may as well pack his bags.


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B&GBlood

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Full Forward.

Let him smash into the back of Tarrant or whomever is taking 10+ uncontested, intercept marks in our forwardline.

He’s big, quick & will bring the ball to ground a f**k load better than Timmy O’Melbourne is doing. He knows how to play forward & can take a mark.

Whilst we’re bereft of a forward with a big body or who can jump, we may as well get some use out of Brand.
I don't think that is such a bad idea.
 

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Coathanger

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Was waiting for this thread. Last time we played NM, Ben Brown absolutely pantsed Kaiden Brand. He didn't neutralise a single contest. It was no shock to me that he didn't get the call up. Needs to improve his one-on-one work, because his size is the only thing which sets him apart from other young defenders who can use the ball better than he does.
So Frawley wasn't pantsed by Brown?
 

Brant

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If we thought he was going to be a forward/ruck option he'd do more of that at Box Hill

I get the feeling the coaching staff think backline or bust.

He's still got time to to make it
Not just re: Brand, but I find it weird that some players get tried in numerous positions, seemingly to no avail, whilst others seemingly get played out of position for years, then released.

Obviously there's more to it than just what appears on the stat sheet & game day, but sometimes I think we maybe overlook the obvious
 

Walshawk

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His problems are as follows.
- lacks confidence and grabs his opponent’s jumper multiple times each game. Gives away too many frees
- slow
- lacks strength one on one
- He is not one of Clarko’s faves

He has decent skills and ok decision making. I don’t think he will play 100 games for us but still think he is our best option on Gorillas like Hawkins/Dixon and we should be getting more games into him.
 

Rowie6

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Hay got traded in the junk time of his careee.

KPDs are overrated with Clarko’s game plan anyway. He basically invented team defense with the “cluster”, and every backline we’ve had for 14 years has had a variation or twist of that. Brand is too old school and if you watch him closely at games (outside of the tv screen), he finds himself lost out of position way too soon often. Plus his build doesn’t support the strong running defender that Clarko likes. Brand will always be depth.
Better option than Zac Dawson!

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OnceKicked50

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I think he's done ok for pick 66.

The reality is that we've hardly drafted any.

If you look at the players (and picks) who have been selected in key defensive positions in the All Australian team since 2010, they are: Rance (18), Talia (13), Hurley (5), Taylor (17), Thompson (37), McPharlin (10), Richards (27), Glass (11) and Reid (8).

You rarely get a very good key defender outside the top 2 rounds.
I'm not really sold on the notion you can only find good defenders in the first two-rounds. I think that is certainly the case for key forwards, but like rucks some key defenders take time to develop and can be picked up later or in the rookie draft.

To name a few:

Nathan Bock (rookie), Ben Rutten (rookie), Jermey McGovern (rookie), Tom Barass (43), Cale Hooker (54), Tom McDonald (53), Harris Andrews (61), Heath Grundy (rookie), Dean Rampe (rookie), Tom Stewart (40), Brian Lake (71) ect.
 

mikeder

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Frawley is still using credits up in the bank that he had when Lake was around making him look good. Now this year he has been average at best and Clarko still reckons he should get a game but I agree - Brand is worth bringing into the side and making our backline a bit taller - god knows we need the height back there.
The talls like (Lake, Frawley and Spangher) that were in the Hawks side in 2015 were certainly our last handy group of quality talls; just can't seem to get that calibre to our club any more?
 

mikeder

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KB needs the ball kicked on top of his opponent's head to feel comfortable. Preferably in a pack so he can leave that opponent and jump and punch.
If in space, Brand is super super super poor at maintaining body contact, knowing how to cut off a lead, gauging space in between the ball coming at him from upfield and understanding how quickly to drop or what to do.

The other stuff he's pretty good at, quite comfortable when the ball is in his hand, he has enough courage, is not slow....
For mine just looks like a forward who is not a natural at switching ends and having a feel or instinct for exactly what to do and when.
Might click, might not.
There is a serious coaching deficiency regarding KB if that's the case. Needs to be worked on, because he obviously has the ability.
 

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As a few have said (Brishawk Dixie Flatline ) It has to be his lack of intelligence on the footy field. He has the mongrel, has the size, has the speed but doesn't play smart. When you think of the well regarded defenders of the last 10 years they are all elite at reading the play. Lake was a master at it and it got him around the fact he was slow, turned like the titanic and had more than the odd brain fart. Taylor is elite at it, Rance is elite at it.
We need to take Sicily's brain and put it into brands body. Unstoppable FB for 10 years.
McEvoy seems elite at reading the ball, which goes well with his endurance. Always seems to be in the right place to chop out marks. Works his backside off, but has the nous to know where to run.
 

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Hay got traded in the junk time of his careee.

KPDs are overrated with Clarko’s game plan anyway. He basically invented team defense with the “cluster”, and every backline we’ve had for 14 years has had a variation or twist of that. Brand is too old school and if you watch him closely at games (outside of the tv screen), he finds himself lost out of position way too soon often. Plus his build doesn’t support the strong running defender that Clarko likes. Brand will always be depth.
I don't completely agree, Lake and the three peat was no coincidence. 2011 and 12 we were arguably the best team in the league (Back half of 2011 and definitely 2012) and we got done by big forwards all the time. Gibbo and Schoenmakers or Gilham was never going to cut it. We need another player that can play Lakes role
 

Collins-Langford-Ayres

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If we thought he was going to be a forward/ruck option he'd do more of that at Box Hill

I get the feeling the coaching staff think backline or bust.

He's still got time to to make it
I can't think of him taking a single big contested mark as a defender. Therefore got no hope as a forward when people are trying to stop him.
 

Birdofprey

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Need to remember both Frawley (140 games at Demons) and Lake (200 games at Western) had a heap of experience BEFORE they even landed at Hawthorn. Put another 50 matches into Brand and I bet he would find his way around the team defense a hell of a lot better!!

I thought he did well most weeks when he played last year - abit of mongrel defending his team mates, and ball use solid for someone his size. There were a few quarters he looked vulnerable/isolated, and it is true at times we have seen him panic and grab jumpers. But he has shown enough to suggest he can get over that.
 
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