What is the problem with Kaiden Brand?

hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
6,691
7,634
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Surely gone at the end of the year
Unless we bring in another KPD during trade period, I think that would be fairly risky. I realise not getting games when Frawley is out isn't a good sign for how the club views him, but I think we are too thin in this area to risk losing him without another immediately viable option on the list. TOB's form has probably made Brand's position on the list a little shakier, but who is our next KPD option at Box Hill if TOB and Frawley both go down right now? Koschitzke, might be an option down the track, but clearly not right now. Mirra is only 186cm. Nash is being groomed for the forward line. Mohr is over 30 and has a lot of injury rehab to do before he'll be available again. We need Gunston playing forward.

He's also one of several players on our list who was drafted at or around the start of the 3-peat, and had trouble forcing their way into the team to get senior exposure. Drafted in 2012, then didn't get a senior gig until his 4th season. It's true that had he been better he'd have pushed for a spot earlier, but given the slow pace of development of many KP players, and the lack of spots in a team that won 3 flags in a row , it could be premature to push him out now, irrespective of depth issues.

I've been wrong a number of times on players to keep/delist, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I'd be keeping Brand for at least one more season unless we bring a KPD during trade, and even then he might still deserve a 1 year contract given I think he's still showing development progress, albeit mostly at VFL level for now.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

MrPremiership

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2013
7,650
14,517
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Unless we bring in another KPD during trade period, I think that would be fairly risky. I realise not getting games when Frawley is out isn't a good sign for how the club views him, but I think we are too thin in this area to risk losing him without another immediately viable option on the list. TOB's form has probably made Brand's position on the list a little shakier, but who is our next KPD option at Box Hill if TOB and Frawley both go down right now? Koschitzke, might be an option down the track, but clearly not right now. Mirra is only 186cm. Nash is being groomed for the forward line. Mohr is over 30 and has a lot of injury rehab to do before he'll be available again. We need Gunston playing forward.

He's also one of several players on our list who was drafted at or around the start of the 3-peat, and had trouble forcing their way into the team to get senior exposure. Drafted in 2012, then didn't get a senior gig until his 4th season. It's true that had he been better he'd have pushed for a spot earlier, but given the slow pace of development of many KP players, and the lack of spots in a team that won 3 flags in a row , it could be premature to push him out now, irrespective of depth issues.

I've been wrong a number of times on players to keep/delist, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I'd be keeping Brand for at least one more season unless we bring a KPD during trade, and even then he might still deserve a 1 year contract given I think he's still showing development progress, albeit mostly at VFL level for now.
We're not using him now when Frawley is out, so no point keeping him for another year.
 

MrPremiership

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2013
7,650
14,517
AFL Club
Hawthorn
That's fine if we have only Frawley out or only TOB out, but what if they are both out, who comes in for both of them then? The point of depth is that it is there when you need it, not that it gets a game every week.
Thats then Mirra, and developing Kosi.......and options of swinging Sicily to a key role....like he did on Lynch.
 

hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
6,691
7,634
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Thats then Mirra, and developing Kosi.......and options of swinging Sicily to a key role....like he did on Lynch.
Mirra and Sicily are both 186cm. That is far from ideal, depending on the matchup. Clarko has certainly used both Mirra and Sicily over Brand on taller types this year, but it tended to happen in games against teams that while they had some tall forwards, they were the type of forwards that don't compete strongly in the air. Sicily is strong in the air, so can offset his size disadvantage against forwards that are not jumping at the ball to take marks (I think it is why we went relatively small against Adelaide for example, despite a couple of tall KPFs in their team). There is no substitute for actual height against tall KPF who are good in the air. Sicily also had half the number of his usual rebound 50s when needing to guard Lynch, so I didn't see that as an ideal option for us either, Sicily is much better not minding a dangerous KPF IMO.

Kosi has the height, but at 18 is likely several years away from being a better option than Brand. We might be able to get away with ditching Brand, but at this stage, I don't see it as a risk worth taking. Especially as he seems to be somewhat improving.
 

MrPremiership

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2013
7,650
14,517
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Mirra and Sicily are both 186cm. That is far from ideal, depending on the matchup. Clarko has certainly used both Mirra and Sicily over Brand on taller types this year, but it tended to happen in games against teams that while they had some tall forwards, they were the type of forwards that don't compete strongly in the air. Sicily is strong in the air, so can offset his size disadvantage against forwards that are not jumping at the ball to take marks (I think it is why we went relatively small against Adelaide for example, despite a couple of tall KPFs in their team). There is no substitute for actual height against tall KPF who are good in the air. Sicily also had half the number of his usual rebound 50s when needing to guard Lynch, so I didn't see that as an ideal option for us either, Sicily is much better not minding a dangerous KPF IMO.

Kosi has the height, but at 18 is likely several years away from being a better option than Brand. We might be able to get away with ditching Brand, but at this stage, I don't see it as a risk worth taking. Especially as he seems to be somewhat improving.
Agree with all that, but Brand just doesn't get the games.

The coaches dont have faith in him. He doesn't get games when he could and blokes like O'Brien and Mirra have gone past him
 

Milkshaker

Club Legend
Nov 6, 2014
1,069
1,992
24 Barrack Street
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Our KPF situation is probably worst in the league. Roughy gone. Lewis developing, then a few ruckmen rotating through. That is it! Poppy seems to play as our full forward and seeing him fly unrealistically for marks in the last few years is painful to watch. Maybe Clarko does not rate them; tall KPF's?

We have a bloke who can take a grab on our list who is relatively quick at 198cm and close to 100kg. Chuck Kosi or Schoey back for Boxhill or even Roughy and try this bloke out.

It just baffles me that we are sniffing around Patton (if true) who has had 3 knee recos when we have a perfectly fit player who was recruited as a forward playing well in a role that can't get him a game. Frawley is playing well enough to go around again next year which will limit Brand's chances going forward. At 25 years of age Brand's time to develop as a forward is passing him by.

Every game of Brands, I have seen, indicates to me he can play top level. Maybe just not well enough in the backline. If I was Brand and a club approached me and said you are going forward for us, I would be gone.
 

hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
6,691
7,634
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Agree with all that, but Brand just doesn't get the games.

The coaches dont have faith in him. He doesn't get games when he could and blokes like O'Brien and Mirra have gone past him
The odd thing with Brand is that while he's not getting a lot of games, from memory , he's regularly featured in the emergencies , which is either a reflection of the fact that our depth in his area of the ground really is cactus or that the coaches haven't lost faith in him, and want to encourage his improvement at Box Hill but just don't have the right matchups for him most weeks.

I'd disagree Mirra has gone past him, as their roles are different enough that I think they are competing for different spots, and Clarko has simply preferred a smaller, more mobile player over a taller one in the instances he's gone with Mirra over Brand. If you want run and spread, generally you go with the 186cm defender, not the 198cm one. Completely agree with you on O'Brien going past him, and I'd also agree that TOB's improvement has put Brand on somewhat shakier ground.

With Frawley 30+ and having missed games due to injury on two separate occasions only half way into the season, I still reckon Brand is cover worth keeping. Mind you, I thought the same thing about Hartung, and he then got delisted twice in 12 months!
 

PhatHQ

Club Legend
Sep 26, 2015
2,844
3,022
Newcastle
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I’m a KB fan.
He does have the odd brain fade or s**t kick but I like what he brings to the team dynamic in defence.
Brand should be playing & Chip should be the second tall deep. Timmy at CHB.
Throw in Impey, Hardwick & Sicily & there is a tonne of marking power & enough speed to rebound.

Brand forward should have happened already so I’m not holding my breath.
I do think that a test run there would be very interesting though
 
Last edited:

(Log in to remove this ad.)

flinchfree

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2014
2,870
5,698
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Kaiden was a 4th round pick, #66, as a forward coming into the draft.
He was not seen as a big time goal kicking/marking prospect at the level, and we as a club obviously don't believe he has any chance of being good at it - or we would have trialled him there in games at VFL or AFL level.
It's not as though we've kept him on the list so as to look the goose because our coaches are bereft of imagination.
He'll make it as a backman at the HFC, or not at all.
 

Milkshaker

Club Legend
Nov 6, 2014
1,069
1,992
24 Barrack Street
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Kaiden was a 4th round pick, #66, as a forward coming into the draft.
He was not seen as a big time goal kicking/marking prospect at the level, and we as a club obviously don't believe he has any chance of being good at it - or we would have trialled him there in games at VFL or AFL level.
It's not as though we've kept him on the list so as to look the goose because our coaches are bereft of imagination.
He'll make it as a backman at the HFC, or not at all.
True. I think most accept that the coaches would have already mulled this over. I am not going to sell supporters short who have played, watched and been students of the game for a long time, who see it differently.

Guerra, Schoenmakers, Sicily, Hardwick, Brand and even Gunston have been recruited as forwards who play back,to name a few. Its just my opinion but given the attributes Brand possesses and our dearth of FPF has I think he could go ok. IMO despite the flag Schoey had a somewhat wasted career (others may see that differently). He was never a true 'utility' and played a lot of his career back when he had obvious deficiencies.
 
Last edited:

Agent Smith

BigFooty Oracle
May 7, 2011
7,752
16,919
The Matrix
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Our KPF situation is probably worst in the league. Roughy gone. Lewis developing, then a few ruckmen rotating through. That is it! Poppy seems to play as our full forward and seeing him fly unrealistically for marks in the last few years is painful to watch. Maybe Clarko does not rate them; tall KPF's?

We have a bloke who can take a grab on our list who is relatively quick at 198cm and close to 100kg. Chuck Kosi or Schoey back for Boxhill or even Roughy and try this bloke out.

It just baffles me that we are sniffing around Patton (if true) who has had 3 knee recos when we have a perfectly fit player who was recruited as a forward playing well in a role that can't get him a game. Frawley is playing well enough to go around again next year which will limit Brand's chances going forward. At 25 years of age Brand's time to develop as a forward is passing him by.

Every game of Brands, I have seen, indicates to me he can play top level. Maybe just not well enough in the backline. If I was Brand and a club approached me and said you are going forward for us, I would be gone.
Sorry, this makes too much sense. You need to dumb it down a little.
 

rogiebear93

Premiership Player
May 17, 2017
4,566
8,637
AFL Club
Hawthorn
He did at one point in the pre-season I think. I’d like to know what his deficiencies are as a potential forward.
The fact that he was hardly a draftable proposition at all, let alone as a forward, and has now spent the better part of 7 years not playing forward and losing whatever forward craft he may have had in the first place.

No one in BigFooty with the "Brand forward" mentality is saying anything groundbreaking that the coaching group wouldn't have thought of already. If he's not forward, there are plenty of good reasons that the club would be fully aware of.

At this point, if we throw him forward, it would stifle our current workings there. The fact that this even has to be explained is baffling to say the least.
 

Guardian Hawk

Club Legend
Oct 16, 2003
2,632
3,223
Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Hawthorn
For those writing him off and saying he is may be too good for VFL but not good enough for AFL, it may be worth considering...

From 2016-2018, he was named in the Box Hill bests just 2 times (and not once best on ground).

In 2019, he has played 5 games at VFL level and been named in the bests 3 times, with 2 of those in the last 2 weeks.

Not only that, in the last 2 weeks he has been named clear BOG in both games by the match committee.

On the weekend, he had 30 disposals, 19 marks, 5 contested, 5 rebound 50's playing full back! They are easily career best stats for him across the board.

Assistant coach Torin Baker said of the game "KB, without a doubt, was our best player on the day. His ability to mark the ball from the opposition, as well as his spoiling and setting us up with his ball use was outstanding. On the back of last week, he is in awesome form".

I suppose the point I am making is that he hasn't really dominated at VFL level before. He has been serviceable and had the odd good game and as he is the best we had available, has received the call up (albeit temporarily).

Now, he is dominating at VFL level (only for a short time mind you) and may be capable of playing a level above his previous form at AFL level as he has done at VFL level (just like TOB has recently improved or Ricky Henderson this year, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not naïve enough to suggest that a couple of dominant games at VFL level means he will suddenly be our answer at full back for the next 5 -7 years. I'm just saying that he is playing at a level significantly higher than he has shown previous and that may continue and hopefully translate to improved performances at AFL level so let's not write him off completely/delist just yet given our deficiencies in that area (especially post Frawley)
 

Simon Crawshay

All Australian
Jun 4, 2016
778
1,786
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I think he needs to be rewarded with a game in the seniors after that kind of showing
Given Scrimshaw is out for 6 weeks you would think he will get a decent run of games in the seniors. His confidence should be high after that kind of showing so we may see the "Good" Brand over the next couple of weeks (we hope)
 

Bedi

Premiership Player
Mar 8, 2014
3,400
3,599
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Given Scrimshaw is out for 6 weeks you would think he will get a decent run of games in the seniors. His confidence should be high after that kind of showing so we may see the "Good" Brand over the next couple of weeks (we hope)
s**t, i didn't know that about Scrimshaw. What a bugger! Yep, very good opportunity for Brand to stand up.
 

Walshawk

Club Legend
Mar 24, 2017
1,119
1,001
Blackburn
AFL Club
Hawthorn
TOB playing well at CHB so Brand’s improved VFL form and self-confidence could not have come at a worse time for him. We definitely don’t need three KPD plus Stratts & Sicily v Lions. He may still have a career but he will need to hold that form until TOB loses form or a Frawley injury (inevitable). Then he must back himself and not panic when he gets promoted.
Given Frawley’s age I hope we stick with him.
 

almuz

Debutant
Mar 24, 2012
102
83
NSW
AFL Club
Hawthorn
This might be an armchair assessment but re Brand I think it might be an aerobic capacity issue.

In the Geelong game Hawkins went on a big lead up the ground with KB trailing him. No dramas there, that’s where you’d want Hawkins marking it. Only issue was I have never seen a player overtly that wrecked, hands on haunches, blowing a gale etc. Brand was absolutely spent on the mark.

I still reckon he will come good but. Goes hard (he’s on the ground hurt once or twice a game, can’t question the effort lol) good size and not badly beaten that often.
 
Top Bottom