What Shane Tuck Does - 2012 Thread

[Livonski]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Didn't mean to make veiled points.
Just said Tuck has disposal issues.
The modern game is set up to catch poor disposal out.

And my post was motivated by others suggesting there had been a huge error made in not playing him every week. Just not right.
I wasn't around when you were bagging Chaffey etc, I'll take your word for it. But agree 100% that disposal efficiency has always been important, just hasn't been tallied til recently.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Didn't mean to make veiled points.
Just said Tuck has disposal issues.
The modern game is set up to catch poor disposal out.

And my post was motivated by others suggesting there had been a huge error made in not playing him every week. Just not right.
I wasn't around when you were bagging Chaffey etc, I'll take your word for it. But agree 100% that disposal efficiency has always been important, just hasn't been tallied til recently.

unfortunately it has been tallied but even that "stat" is riddled with lame caveats, i.e. if it hits a target it is marked as efficient. The real stat is if it hits the right target, be it teammate on the chest or point on the ground where teammate is in the van..thats the one you can only see if you look and see.. the current stat is marked down if I have the ball and you are 2 ms behind me, i handball it to you and it hits you...i.e a juinior could do the same and get that stat. In the same breath, i have the ball, look up, assess where to send it even though it wont directly hit a target, send it there, because my teamate is 99.9% in the van to get there first and when he does, he is free to enter the f50, is marked down as what? Thats why coaches who understand look at pieces of paper, but also watch the game and just know what stat matters, when the name that produced a disposal that 2 uncontested disposals later ended in a scoring opportunity is low down in that "efficient disposal" stat sheet, are successful and others that just look at a laptop, listen to others who are racking up stats on a laptop, even go to ridiculous lenghts and have a radio in the box to listen to "commentators" comments are now employed in other proffessions.

 

[_RT_]

hmmm strange, so you noticed something you didnt watch and then saw it again the next week.
Add to that the "did you see the exquisite skills, executed to perfection" line from the erayzorhead and this thread is becoming serious.
People are descending into lunacy. This thread could change the way mankind thinks.
Mankind will now not see, but notice and then when they have noticed what they didnt see, then when they see what they didnt see again, they will see it in full effect..and to think the thread topic is What Shane Tuck does...to easy, take a look and you will notice, thats of course if you do it the new way, not look, dont see then notice it when you see it..

Very clever Cogga, so let me explain. I was listening to the game while watching the live stats and noticed something about the way Tuck played. The following week at Geelong, I was able to see if what I suspected was happening was actually happening. Pleasingly it was the case, hopefully its something that happens throughout the season. For if it does, I don't think many will be complaining.

Tuck was dropped in 2010 due to his non existent defensive side. And when he came back he played at half back, to help even more with that. I reckon he's improved a lot in that regard, but is still susceptible to being run off.

His other issue is disposal, (anyone mentioned that?) and the problem with that is the game is set up behind the ball with a press, designed to force a stray, bombed kick.

It is no secret that sides are happy for the ball to be in the hands of a turnover merchant. Watch them back off and cover the elite kicks. It's why McGuane is so often exposed.

And all clubs know who the poor kicks and decision makers are in each side. And set up accordingly.

Tuck is a brilliant ball winner, great one grab mark and I reckon he's improving in the areas he's been poor in. But I don't subscribe to the theory that horrible mistakes were made by the coaching staff. He was helped by the coaching staff to improve those areas of his game.
Tuck's weaknesses are known by all in the footy world (except some on this forum), otherwise he would be playing somewhere else. I like him, reckon he does a great job for us, but he's got a couple of flaws. Like a few others...

Pretty much sums up my opinion on Tuck. Ball winning ability is great, ball usage and accountability on the other hand not so great.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

BTW Ray, have you picked up on the change in Tucks game yet? I noticed it in the game against Freo, even though I was neither their nor watching in TV, then saw it in full effect the following week against Geelong.

People starting to appreciate it?

 

[nbourke]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Im sick of this discussion. Until we get stronger in the middle and develop bigger bodied mids, Tuck is absolutely crucial to stop us getting demolished and so that our other mid fielders can progress and mature without being smashed each week.

2011 games without Shane Tuck: 2 wins a draw and 9 losses or 2.5/12
2011 games with Shane Tuck: 6 wins and 4 losses or 6/10

I know this is very simplified and there are other factors...many other factors but we 100% play sooo much better with him.

It is staggering when you realise that we won against Sydney/Melbourne/Essendon with him, and without him we lost to exactly the same teams....

If you need further evidence watch the replay of when we played the Bulldogs. They were very disappointing at the time and we were out and about. They lacked speed but more than made up for it with big strong mid fielders and on that stupidly small telstra dome whatever the hell its called etihad haha we were just shoved aside. Boyd/Cross/Ward/Liba ripped us apart.

If you still fail to see the importance of Shane Tuck then really you have NFI

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Gee what a shock, based on what I saw, and for that fact what they saw, the conclusion was that Tuck was not worthy of a spot.

And now he suddenly is. How convenient. The problem wasn't about anyone's lack of judgement, Tuck has just done what he apparently couldn't according to you and them and was left out accordingly - follow a gameplan, be a team player, and improve. Either way shows a damning lack of football judgement - exactly what I've maintained all along.

Which Hawthorn game are you talking about the one that was Hardwicks first in charge...

I reckon I'd be talking about 2011 seeing that the text I quoted from you referred to the 2011 pre-season.

The most annoying this about this is that you can't really argue against it...

I believe I have argued against it - very successfully judging by yet another of your 'minimise the damage' flip-flops.

Once again when challenged about your opinion all you can revert to is attacking the other poster.

LMAO...you attack my ability to analyse a game by footage with zero reason to do so, then when I defend myself you claim you're being attacked? That's lamb's brains rich.

I don't have to do anything to question your ability to analyse a game, you have done it for me by admitting that you have to assume and guess...

Like Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles 'assume and guess' where the keys are? Some people have sufficient intelligence about what they're doing to fill in the blanks. I've explained in detail after being repeatedly harrassed on the topic about how I do it. I realise you're a million miles from 'getting' that - and not just by choice, for once.

BTW Ray, have you picked up on the change in Tucks game yet? I noticed it in the game against Freo, even though I was neither their nor watching in TV...

Would you like me to grab a garbage bag or two, help you scoop the remains of your feet into it and call an ambulance? Both barrels in each foot, it's a mess RT.

Tuck was dropped in 2010 due to his non existent defensive side.

You don't rack up the defensive stats Tuck has his whole career if you don't have a 'defensive side' Liv. His tackles alone (which anyone can access and compare to our other mids) are enough testimony to that.

And as the old saying goes, you don't need much of a defensive side if you're good enough at attacking, because you have the ball and the opposition don't.

 

[Livonski]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Wasn't about the tackle count or any other stats Rayzor. More about the defensive set up and how he plays his part. Think Ross Smith.

 

[_RT_]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

And now he suddenly is. How convenient. The problem wasn't about anyone's lack of judgement, Tuck has just done what he apparently couldn't according to you and them and was left out accordingly - follow a gameplan, be a team player, and improve. Either way shows a damning lack of football judgement - exactly what I've maintained all along.

There is nothing sudden about it, he has taken near on 2 years to adjust his style to fit into what Hardwick wants. Now that he has done that he has earnt his spot back in the side. But lets not let that get in the way of your fanboy support.

I believe I have argued against it - very successfully judging by yet another of your 'minimise the damage' flip-flops.

I haven't changed my opinion based on your 'successful' arguement. I've changed it based on what I have seen with my own eyes.

LMAO...you attack my ability to analyse a game by footage with zero reason to do so, then when I defend myself you claim you're being attacked? That's lamb's brains rich.

Sorry Ray, but you attacked my ability to form my own opinion first by suggesting I was doing nothing but parroting what was coming out of the club. I then showed how I formed my opinion and questioned the strength of your opinion based on you being only able to see selected vision.

Like Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles 'assume and guess' where the keys are? Some people have sufficient intelligence about what they're doing to fill in the blanks. I've explained in detail after being repeatedly harrassed on the topic about how I do it. I realise you're a million miles from 'getting' that - and not just by choice, for once.

Knowing where the keys are on a piano(which never change) is completely different to trying to guess and assume what has happened off screen while watching the footy. The amount of variables that need to be taken into account offer up reasonable doubt as to whether what you assume has happened actually happened.

Would you like me to grab a garbage bag or two, help you scoop the remains of your feet into it and call an ambulance? Both barrels in each foot, it's a mess RT.

Another of your favoured tactics, selectively quote part of a post and try and use it to make a point. Yes I did question your ability to see things based on watching TV, but as I explained in my reply to Cogga, I thought something was happening with the way Tuck played when listening to the Freo game. However instead of claiming that I knew with absolute certainty that what I thought was happening was happening, I waited until I actually saw it while at the ground watching him play live before mentioning it.

You see thats the difference between forming my opinion and the way you form yours. Mine is based on what I see at the ground where I can clearly see how the play unfolds both before and after Tuck has the ball. As mentioned you are restricted to guessing and assuming you know what has happened and quite frankly thats not the greatest way to analyse footy as far as I'm concerned. Especially when the person doing so is trying to claim that what they are assuming is happening is 100% correct and the only right opinion.

 

[santa claws]

Pretty much sums up my opinion on Tuck. Ball winning ability is great, ball usage and accountability on the other hand not so great.

isnt that what everyone has been saying including the defenders of tuck. his inside work and ball winning ability more than off sets the other weaknesses.
id also say by hand hes pretty good and id be surprised if his hand to kick ratio is not significantly higher. id say the same about foley as well.

imo there has always been a spot for him because we dont have other options. until recently we also had a team of runts its why jackson had to be played.

it never ceases to amaze me people line up to flick tuck but leave worse performers like eswards and jackson alone.
i think foleys kicking very suspect as bad as tucks at times but hes a bottom of the pack player who primarily uses his hands to get it out. like tuck he performs a role a role no one else can perform we dont have replacements for either.

tell me who are the genuine inside mids on the list. yes we have cotchin martin and to a lesser extent deledio can win contested ball but its not coal face ball if you like at the bottom of a pack besides these blokes are desperately needed on the outside. who gets first hands on the ball its foley and tuck doing the grunt work.
tucks ability inside and impoortance and foleys for that matter has always seen them as important cogs despite their deficiencies.

tuck in his role gives us much more than grigg or edwards or to date conca batchelor foley the last few yrs jackson nahas the job he does cannot be replicated by others but the role jackson edwards nahas grigg etc can.

the simple fact is until we actually find a big bodied inside mid whos better than tuck he without a doubt should be playing. in fact we need to find two or three similar types to tuck and we need a few outside types with genuine class to replace the edwards griggs and nahas of the team.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

All pretty much straight forward there Santa......

 

[Livonski]

Santa, I don't think there is a line up of people looking to flick Tucky. On the contrary, most seem to think that he adds to the side and has improved on his weaknesses.

The line that I was in was responding to the opinions that Hardwick made grave errors in dropping him from time to time. My post #97, if you read it, summed it up for me and was agreed by RT. Not speaking on his behalf tho.

And your response, apart from that bit, was fine by me.

 

[lamaros]

I don't know why you didn't play him much last year, seems to me he is vital in the midfield. Every side that wants to compete needs to have a couple of guys who can get the ball from the stoppage contests. It's no good having one, and it's no good expecting young guys to automatically get better just by putting them in there. That's way Essendon gave Lonergan so many games last year, and why we struggled when Watson and Hocking went out. (And I can't stand Lonergan).

Hopefully Tuck has a good year for you in 2012.

 

[sante]

Why is santa sponsoring a Melbourne player in Howe?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Wasn't about the tackle count or any other stats Rayzor. More about the defensive set up and how he plays his part. Think Ross Smith.

Puzzling comment IMO Liv.

To all intents and purposes, we haven't had a defensive midfield set up since Wallace left, which AFAIK, is part of the reason why we got Smith in - Campbell/Lade/Hardwick whoever, either wasn't able to get it together tactically, or couldn't communicate/teach it properly (or both). A lack of personnel who were already schooled in that type of role didn't help matters (e.g. Coughlan at his best would have been a godsend for our list).

Tuck is wherever the ball is, in the part of the ground where that most matters. If he gets there first he doesn't need to defend (and therefore others don't have to execute defensive acts). If he gets there second or simultaneously, he crunches and bruises, tackles, dispossesses, kills the contest, or at the least applies as much referred pressure to the disposal as is possible. These things - over four full quarters as Tuck always gives - are more defensively valuable than the combined defensive contributions of half a dozen of his teammates who were getting games.

I struggle to see how someone doing all the above can possibly get labelled defensively deficient, especially when the structure and players we went with instead of having Tuck there failed so abysmally much of last season.

There is nothing sudden about it, he has taken near on 2 years to adjust his style to fit into what Hardwick wants.

'What Hardwick wanted' got us very publicly flogged and humiliated unnecessarily and cost the club a fortune financially. Wasn't Tuck that had to 'adjust his style.'

It's taken the best part of two years for Hardwick to recognise Tuck's value, because he either a) hadn't done his homework b) he's a poor judge of a player and overall midfield structure, or c) he let Campbell overrule his better judgement because he wanted to give a respectable amount of power and autonomy to his assistants.

It could well have been a combination of all three considering how long they persisted with their combined stupidity.

I haven't changed my opinion based on your 'successful' arguement. I've changed it based on what I have seen with my own eyes.

I was referring to the Tuck NAB Cup game in 2010 against the Hawks and you agreeing that he played well in his only opportunity. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I then showed how I formed my opinion and questioned the strength of your opinion based on you being only able to see selected vision.

You showed in exquisite detail how you came to a wrong conclusion, then questioned my methods, despite the fact I was right - which to any sane person, weakens your case in either direction more than a little.

Knowing where the keys are on a piano(which never change) is completely different to trying to guess and assume what has happened off screen while watching the footy.

Played a lot of blind piano and spent decades filling in the important, relevant parts of a game which is happening off camera have you RT? No? Then maybe, just maybe you have absolutely NFI what you're talking about when you say the two can't be compared? I've explained how I do it before, I'm hardly going to do so all over again every time you drag me through this charade.

However instead of claiming that I knew with absolute certainty that what I thought was happening was happening, I waited until I actually saw it while at the ground watching him play live before mentioning it.

That makes way more sense than the way you first wrote it.

Especially when the person doing so is trying to claim that what they are assuming is happening is 100% correct and the only right opinion.

What a silly thing to say. Maybe 20% of my total posts have been agreeing with someone else's opinion or endorsing what they've written - and not always because I already held that opinion prior to reading what they had to say.

On the other hand, there are some people I seldom agree with, because we watch, understand and interpret football on levels which are way too far removed from one another to connect very often.

I find it to be quite a remarkable and wonderful thing that we can all still enjoy the game.

 

[Livonski]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Too complicated for me Rayzor. It's a very simple issue and has been blown out of all proportion. He's not the Messiah, and you're seeing things that others don't, and not seeing deficiencies etc But that's all opinion, and I respect yours, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Rustof]

Why is santa sponsoring a Melbourne player in Howe?

Everyone was last night. Something messed up where you'd post and you wold get the 'Howe12' banner. Then it would disappear after you posted again.


Good times...

 

[CamTinley]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

LMAO..interesting..so you dont go to watch Dustin or JR or Lids, but you to the tigers to watch Tuck and Cotchin...I will keep that in mind when debating shit down the track with you dude...i.e. you are a lost cause..

Shane Tuck did play well today ... and Cotchin.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Re: What Shane Tuck Does

Shane Tuck did play well today ... and Cotchin.

Exactly... ...

 

[cairo tiger]

gave him our second best today

 

[Jisha]

the simple fact is until we actually find a big bodied inside mid whos better than tuck he without a doubt should be playing. in fact we need to find two or three similar types to tuck and we need a few outside types with genuine class to replace the edwards griggs and nahas of the team.

Nahas and Griggs were excellent today. Edwards was not bad. They played a bigger role than our more highly respected players.

I know one game does not make a premiership, but these players you are saying are our "night watchman" are a lot more skilled than you are making out.

 

[CoggaRules]

What Shane Tuck does? gets close or B.O.G against this class of team. Which is fair enough.

 

[santa claws]

Nahas and Griggs were excellent today. Edwards was not bad. They played a bigger role than our more highly respected players.

I know one game does not make a premiership, but these players you are saying are our "night watchman" are a lot more skilled than you are making out.

pppffffttt one leg nahas had a reasonable game but the lack of polish really stood out.
edwards was among our worst again. in such a win he did okay but still in our worst.

grigg imo had a good game but did he get a contested possesion i have to wonder. as a running player grigg did his job and he knocked up getting it so no complaints at all. he even used it well most of the time.

tuck foley conca yes grigg as well were the lesser lights who stood up. deledio cotchin were servicable as well as houli.

those night watchmen i complain about are duds skills or no skills.

 

[CoggaRules]

pppffffttt one leg nahas had a reasonable game but the lack of polish really stood out.
edwards was among our worst again. in such a win he did okay but still in our worst.

grigg imo had a good game but did he get a contested possesion i have to wonder. as a running player grigg did his job and he knocked up getting it so no complaints at all. he even used it well most of the time.

tuck foley conca yes grigg as well were the lesser lights who stood up. deledio cotchin were servicable as well as houli.

those night watchmen i complain about are duds skills or no skills.

at the end of the day clawsa, the tank that Grigg has is enormous. And to be able to run like he does and get into a space on his own, is an outlet if required. He more often than not doesnt waste a posession, by that I dont mean he threads needles and slices them up, I mean he doesnt make mistakes, i.e. plays safe when its time to play safe. He is one of those players that fill a role in a top team, but dont make a top team a top team. When and if we build the missing links, his endurance will be invluable. Its good when a HB gets it and looks up weighing up his options, sees that the best option, the one that is going to slice the opposition is covered and then the pressure mounts to get rid of it and there is grigg in a space on his own that the HB can hit with a basic run of the mill lollipop kick.

 

[nut]

Another Great display by Tuck..... Arguably the best on ground.

 

[Neen]

Tuck was Best afield today. Grigg was excellent. Both these players have passed Jackson. I've always maintained that these three cannot be in the same team.

Tuck has always been under rated. I didn't rate Grigg last year. But this year, Grigg has been fantastic. Jackson needs to make way for Conca to play his midfield role.

Love the way Tuck played today. Reminded me of his old man.