List Mgmt. What to do with McCartin?

[VDS66]

Great explanation, Strahany. And a telling argument as to why we shouldn't have picked him in the first place. When there are so many variables at play as there are in this case, surely you wouldn't risk taking him with pick number one, would you?

Who would old mate TTOTM have taken?

 

[Sheeza69]

Great explanation, Strahany. And a telling argument as to why we shouldn't have picked him in the first place. When there are so many variables at play as there are in this case, surely you wouldn't risk taking him with pick number one, would you?

It I had pick 1 the obvious would be to draft a player who's close enough to the full package..
Agility, endurance, speed, reflexes, reaction time would all need to be ticked off, plus ability & attitude..
Keep in mind there was another 17 clubs who considered McCartin a shoe in to go top 3..

 

[theprospect]

This thread is an embarrassment. What is it with St Kilda supporters and whipping boys?

 

[JG22]

This thread is an embarrassment. What is it with St Kilda supporters and whipping boys?

Some of the stuff may be repetitive.

But supporters are allowed to critique key people and decisions made by their club on a discussion forum.

 

[tomjoad]

The thing with exogenous insulin is that it's relatively easy to stick to a consistent regime for your 'standard' Type 1 diabetic, but it's something different altogether for someone performing physical activity, let alone the demands of an AFL footballer.

To put it really simply, you obtain glucose from food insulin is used to transport the glucose into your cells where it can then be broken down and used as energy. So, whilst our body monitors how much glucose is in our bloodstream and releases insulin (and glucagon, it's counterpart) accordingly to keep it within safe limits, Paddy can't. So the problem is that he and the medical team need to dial in the right dose of insulin on the right schedule; too much insulin, and Paddy could become hypoglycaemic, due to all of his glucose being thrusted into his cells, and can manifest itself anywhere from being sluggish and performing poorly, to death. If not enough insulin is provided, then not enough energy will reach his cells, and therefore his performance will suffer; if he becomes hyperglycaemic then some rarer side effects include heart issues, but mainly long term kidney problems result.

So why does this matter?

Well, imagine a situation where too much insulin is provided, or Paddy hasn't eaten the right foods for insulin control, and he becomes hypoglycaemic. I'm sure everyone here knows or has known a diabetic, and they'll often carry around something like a Gatorade, or some jelly beans for some quick simple sugars. This is fine for the average person, but if this happens often for Paddy, then this can introduce several hundreds of calories into his diet that wouldn't have otherwise been there, which makes weight control more difficult.
You might say the above example is too drastic, which might be true, but then let's look at a more basic example. Imagine if you're at football training, and you need some more insulin; your body releases it, and you keep performing to a high level (or, well, to the best that you can, plodder). Conversely, Paddy's body can't do that. In this situation, unless he is directly monitoring his levels at this point in time, then it would be more or less impossible to distinguish a drop in performance due to poor fitness, and a drop in performance due to insufficient insulin.
Okay, big deal, the club doctors should easily keep this under control, right? Well, not exactly. Firstly, whilst dosing guidelines exist, not all people will be the same - even with identical height/weight/gender/age etc. Then you need to consider the intensity of exercise and factor that into consideration - but then the question is raised on if your calculations are right since, if you base it on his insulin balance during previous sessions, how do they know this was an 'optimal' session, and wasn't, in fact, a session where Paddy was slightly hypoglycaemic? They don't know that, and it can easily alter the numbers. On top of that, one of the great results of exercise is insulin hypersensitivity, which means that each cell requires less insulin to bring in the same amount of glucose. This is great for an individual's health, but now when you're trying to gather data on insulin dosage. So even if it was easy to create a proper plan for Paddy, the goalposts are consistently shifting, so to speak.

So, when you look at Paddy over the years and say that "he isn't in good enough shape for a player of X years", keep in mind that his training regime would be quite inefficient in comparison to a player without diabetes, and then throw in the concussion issues, too. So even if Paddy had been doing everything as best as he possibly could up until now, he would still be behind players several years his junior. This isn't to say that Paddy has been perfect, or that the medicos are yet to get on top of his diabetes, because it could well be the case that it's Paddy's fault, entirely. Maybe it is, but it doesn't change the fact that there are vastly different circumstances involved with him.

If a KPF takes 4-5 years to really hit their straps from a physical perspective and an experience perspective, then Paddy's diabetes may pin the physical aspect back 2 years or so, whilst his concussion issues would certainly be delaying his development from an experience perspective. IF Paddy is going to make it, then it probably won't be obvious for another 2-3 years, and this might not be any fault of Paddy's. Because of that, trading him for a pittance this year would be ridiculous, unless there is pertinent information only known within the club.

That, my friend, is a fantastic post. I have tried to explain as much to some folks, but not anywhere near as eloquently or as knowledgeable as that. I feel up to speed now. Much appreciated.

 

[tomjoad]

It I had pick 1 the obvious would be to draft a player who's close enough to the full package..
Agility, endurance, speed, reflexes, reaction time would all need to be ticked off, plus ability & attitude..
Keep in mind there was another 17 clubs who considered McCartin a shoe in to go top 3..

Yep...people tend to forget that. The recruiters aren't a bunch of flakes, despite what we think. Their job is to perform due diligence to the best of their abilities and with the resources available. Paddy will (most likely) come good. There are no guarantees as to how good he will become, but the chances of him becoming good are in the top echelons of the 10% best players taken in 2014.

 

[CaptainRisky]

They clearly rate Paddy as the number one forward, hence why they always send their best defender to him. But by the end of next year it will be Battle.

Obviously you rate him our number one , good luck with that

 

[Grav]

Honestly it’s hard to say how good Roma was cause Carlton bless them are genuinely a good VFL team at the moment. Both his forward work and rucking need to be taken with a grain of salt, he was playing on Liam Jones/Marchbank who are both out of sorts and rucking against part timers like himself as Kruezer went down.

In saying that though I’ve only seen one quarter from Paddy where he looked anywhere near that confident and that was his one quarter against Richmond before he did his collarbone.

I would like to think Membrey and Battle are locks for the side. Back Paddy to play better than Roma (and Bruce) if he can’t then he can play at Sandy or Geelongs VFL team.

I honestly expected him to kick 500 goals in his career and to have a career roughly on par with Tex, a good- very good key forward that will be remembered fondly but no where near an all time great. At this stage I’d be happy to get 150-200 games and around 350 goals from him

The thing about Roma was, he was clunking his marks. Unfortunately for some reason Paddy, who was supposed to have been a strong mark, appears to have steel gloves on, coz he doesn’t take to many one grab marks at all.

 

[WhiskySaint]

Stick him into a fat camp. Seriously, he needs constant supervision over the preseason, with monitoring from medical professionals of everything that goes into his body. I know his diabetes is an issue, but I fail to see how someone can train through 4 preseasons, hired a PT to do extra work and still look the way he does? Slow, lacking in agility and looking as though he is carrying extra weight.

They did it to Whitnall and it worked, at least for a while. We really need to know what's really going on with his preparation, because even after all this time, he doesn't appear to have an AFL body.

Not making excuses for paddy, but at our club our doctor had as our concussion protocol that zero exercise could be done in the following weeks. No cardio and no weights. Not sure it’s the same at afl, but assume it would be. Not saying it’s a factor, but can’t be helping his fitness.

 

[theprospect]

Honestly it’s hard to say how good Roma was cause Carlton bless them are genuinely a good VFL team at the moment. Both his forward work and rucking need to be taken with a grain of salt, he was playing on Liam Jones/Marchbank who are both out of sorts and rucking against part timers like himself as Kruezer went down.

In saying that though I’ve only seen one quarter from Paddy where he looked anywhere near that confident and that was his one quarter against Richmond before he did his collarbone.

I would like to think Membrey and Battle are locks for the side. Back Paddy to play better than Roma (and Bruce) if he can’t then he can play at Sandy or Geelongs VFL team.

I honestly expected him to kick 500 goals in his career and to have a career roughly on par with Tex, a good- very good key forward that will be remembered fondly but no where near an all time great. At this stage I’d be happy to get 150-200 games and around 350 goals from him

Hold the faith mate, Paddy will come good. Everyone's so impatient which I understand because we invested a lot in him, but we took him at 1 for a reason. He'll take a little longer but when he does, it'll be bloody sweet. There's so much to consider with how his development has tracked to date and the side he's playing in, the more we improve as a side he's only going to get better.

 

[busso_mick]

Fitter? Are you taking the piss? Sorry but he looks like absolute s**t. Skinny-fat body, ****, gut, love handles, the lot. No shoulders or any definition. Not proper, not saluted.

TB, if you put Paddy on the same paddle board today he would look a lot bigger than that. It was my attempt at a comparison, do you think he looks fitter than that today?

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Paddy
Diabetes
Draft
Petracca
Trout

 

[CaptainRisky]

And another one where he is looking even fitter.

He looks like me and that's not a good thing

 

[dk27]

The thing with exogenous insulin is that it's relatively easy to stick to a consistent regime for your 'standard' Type 1 diabetic, but it's something different altogether for someone performing physical activity, let alone the demands of an AFL footballer.

To put it really simply, you obtain glucose from food insulin is used to transport the glucose into your cells where it can then be broken down and used as energy. So, whilst our body monitors how much glucose is in our bloodstream and releases insulin (and glucagon, it's counterpart) accordingly to keep it within safe limits, Paddy can't. So the problem is that he and the medical team need to dial in the right dose of insulin on the right schedule; too much insulin, and Paddy could become hypoglycaemic, due to all of his glucose being thrusted into his cells, and can manifest itself anywhere from being sluggish and performing poorly, to death. If not enough insulin is provided, then not enough energy will reach his cells, and therefore his performance will suffer; if he becomes hyperglycaemic then some rarer side effects include heart issues, but mainly long term kidney problems result.

So why does this matter?

Well, imagine a situation where too much insulin is provided, or Paddy hasn't eaten the right foods for insulin control, and he becomes hypoglycaemic. I'm sure everyone here knows or has known a diabetic, and they'll often carry around something like a Gatorade, or some jelly beans for some quick simple sugars. This is fine for the average person, but if this happens often for Paddy, then this can introduce several hundreds of calories into his diet that wouldn't have otherwise been there, which makes weight control more difficult.
You might say the above example is too drastic, which might be true, but then let's look at a more basic example. Imagine if you're at football training, and you need some more insulin; your body releases it, and you keep performing to a high level (or, well, to the best that you can, plodder). Conversely, Paddy's body can't do that. In this situation, unless he is directly monitoring his levels at this point in time, then it would be more or less impossible to distinguish a drop in performance due to poor fitness, and a drop in performance due to insufficient insulin.
Okay, big deal, the club doctors should easily keep this under control, right? Well, not exactly. Firstly, whilst dosing guidelines exist, not all people will be the same - even with identical height/weight/gender/age etc. Then you need to consider the intensity of exercise and factor that into consideration - but then the question is raised on if your calculations are right since, if you base it on his insulin balance during previous sessions, how do they know this was an 'optimal' session, and wasn't, in fact, a session where Paddy was slightly hypoglycaemic? They don't know that, and it can easily alter the numbers. On top of that, one of the great results of exercise is insulin hypersensitivity, which means that each cell requires less insulin to bring in the same amount of glucose. This is great for an individual's health, but now when you're trying to gather data on insulin dosage. So even if it was easy to create a proper plan for Paddy, the goalposts are consistently shifting, so to speak.

So, when you look at Paddy over the years and say that "he isn't in good enough shape for a player of X years", keep in mind that his training regime would be quite inefficient in comparison to a player without diabetes, and then throw in the concussion issues, too. So even if Paddy had been doing everything as best as he possibly could up until now, he would still be behind players several years his junior. This isn't to say that Paddy has been perfect, or that the medicos are yet to get on top of his diabetes, because it could well be the case that it's Paddy's fault, entirely. Maybe it is, but it doesn't change the fact that there are vastly different circumstances involved with him.

If a KPF takes 4-5 years to really hit their straps from a physical perspective and an experience perspective, then Paddy's diabetes may pin the physical aspect back 2 years or so, whilst his concussion issues would certainly be delaying his development from an experience perspective. IF Paddy is going to make it, then it probably won't be obvious for another 2-3 years, and this might not be any fault of Paddy's. Because of that, trading him for a pittance this year would be ridiculous, unless there is pertinent information only known within the club.

A lot of international endurance athletes are performing well with a no sugar, no carbohydrates diet. Chris Froome, multiple Tour de France winner is an example. It has advantages for Diabetics as they burn ketones from fat rather than glucose for energy. Makes it a lot easier to manage insulin levels without glucose in the system. A side effect is losing weight and lowering inflammation in the system. Looks like a perfect solution for Paddy.
It takes about 9 months to adapt your system to this diet.
Melbourne Football Club experimented with this diet for the whole team one year but moved away from it so would be interesting to see the data and find out why they dropped it.
I went on this diet a couple of years ago. I am back to the weight I was in high school. Hip and shoulder pain from old injuries has gone and at 55 feel like I did 30 years ago. It is not easy, (no beer or junk food) but the results are worth it.

 

[Mikka84]

A lot of international endurance athletes are performing well with a no sugar, no carbohydrates diet. Chris Froome, multiple Tour de France winner is an example. It has advantages for Diabetics as they burn ketones from fat rather than glucose for energy. Makes it a lot easier to manage insulin levels without glucose in the system. A side effect is losing weight and lowering inflammation in the system. Looks like a perfect solution for Paddy.
It takes about 9 months to adapt your system to this diet.
Melbourne Football Club experimented with this diet for the whole team one year but moved away from it so would be interesting to see the data and find out why they dropped it.
I went on this diet a couple of years ago. I am back to the weight I was in high school. Hip and shoulder pain from old injuries has gone and at 55 feel like I did 30 years ago. It is not easy, (no beer or junk food) but the results are worth it.

Not good for business. Cannot recommend.

 

[triggering bro]

TB, if you put Paddy on the same paddle board today he would look a lot bigger than that. It was my attempt at a comparison, do you think he looks fitter than that today?

It’s difficult to tell. I do think he needs to carry a little extra weight, for his health, & because it suits his body type composition. Being ripped is not the be all & end all but generally speaking fit people look fit. Paddy looks unfit & his performance is comparable to his look.

I don’t think there is a comparison with Jeremy McGovern, whom I stood next to at the Perth airport not so long ago. McG is a thick & solidly built bloke. Absolute tank of a man. Whereas Paddy is carrying a lot of body fat & looks ‘soft’, McG looks ‘hardened’. Paddy’s body looks incredibly immature for mine so the hope is that his body matures & his fitness progresses.

I get that some players are slow burns but there is a lesson in this: “why use a high draft pick on a guy that wont be capable of being a key part of your 22 for 5+ years, meaning the investment is only a half of a career?”

We wouldn’t have expected Paddy to take so long to come along, the concussions have hurt, however I do believe we saw him as a slow burn. The selection of Paddy is a key reason for Trout getting the punt IMO. A horrific selection in hindsight.

 

[joop]

Honestly it’s hard to say how good Roma was cause Carlton bless them are genuinely a good VFL team at the moment. Both his forward work and rucking need to be taken with a grain of salt, he was playing on Liam Jones/Marchbank who are both out of sorts and rucking against part timers like himself as Kruezer went down.

In saying that though I’ve only seen one quarter from Paddy where he looked anywhere near that confident and that was his one quarter against Richmond before he did his collarbone.

I would like to think Membrey and Battle are locks for the side. Back Paddy to play better than Roma (and Bruce) if he can’t then he can play at Sandy or Geelongs VFL team.

I honestly expected him to kick 500 goals in his career and to have a career roughly on par with Tex, a good- very good key forward that will be remembered fondly but no where near an all time great. At this stage I’d be happy to get 150-200 games and around 350 goals from him

Unfortunately at the current trajectory, if you want 350 career goals from him he’d need to play over 400 games. I’m not sure that’s gonna happen.

 

[joop]

This thread is an embarrassment. What is it with St Kilda supporters and whipping boys?

Surely with the title ‘what to do with McCartin’ you were well aware of what the conversation in this thread was going to be like? What’s embarrassing about it? Are we not allowed talk about our players and whether we should trade/delist/play them?

 

[Tigerssaints]

he is like J Paton carries too much weight , esp uptop
100 kg and 194 cm. Must do a Peter Siddle and get on a diet that takes between 5 _ 10 kg from his frame

 

[The Punter]

There's a lot of talk on here which would require a DeLorean to execute.

What do we do with McCartin? Play him if form warrants.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

And another one where he is looking even fitter.

He looks like me and that's not a good thing

I've seen your holiday snaps and i think you're flattering yourself Captain

 

[CaptainRisky]

I've seen your holiday snaps and i think you're flattering yourself Captain

You bloody stalker

 

[majortinkle]

A lot of international endurance athletes are performing well with a no sugar, no carbohydrates diet. Chris Froome, multiple Tour de France winner is an example. It has advantages for Diabetics as they burn ketones from fat rather than glucose for energy. Makes it a lot easier to manage insulin levels without glucose in the system. A side effect is losing weight and lowering inflammation in the system. Looks like a perfect solution for Paddy.
It takes about 9 months to adapt your system to this diet.
Melbourne Football Club experimented with this diet for the whole team one year but moved away from it so would be interesting to see the data and find out why they dropped it.
I went on this diet a couple of years ago. I am back to the weight I was in high school. Hip and shoulder pain from old injuries has gone and at 55 feel like I did 30 years ago. It is not easy, (no beer or junk food) but the results are worth it.

I'd be worried about Paddy's mental health if we forced him into this.

My only issue with him is that I believe he will get picked regardless of whether he is 1st 22 because of where we drafted him.

I think 5 key forwards is a good number for the squad and I am happy to keep him in the hope that his potential is higher than others and so comes good, but he should be at Sandy unless he genuinely 1st 22. Injuries aside, I don't think he is at the moment.

 

[Drake Huggins]

Who would old mate TTOTM have taken?

Only TAFKAWW could tell us that.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Trout what were you thinking ??

McCartin is a shorter/fatter Kosi. Why he was being compared to Tom Boyd has me baffled.

Picking mccartin over petracca and long over fisher has set this club back years imho

Petracca is a Spud. DeGoey was the one we all missed on


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