What unpopular AFL opinions do you have? (Part 1 - cont in Part 2)

[Luv_our_club]

Saying that you don't like AFLW is not an unpopular opinion.

It is also an irrelevant opinion imo.

It is broadcast in late summer and no one forces you to watch it.

It brings money into the game... soon huge money.

It brings sporting options to your sisters and daughters (if not your mothers atm)

And i enjoy it.

 

[schmuttt]

Gawn is still the best ruck in the competition. Only NicNat is in the same league for impact on games. I rate Grundy super highly but have seen a lot of ridiculous premature ejaculation about him being the best, he isn’t there yet.

 

[Scotland]

They're all just warming a seat for the great Scott Lycett.

 

[Damon_3388]

Any statistical measure that determines Dean Cox was not a great ruckman is not worth a pinch of s**t.

He was a great footballer, but not a great ruckman.

 

[Damon_3388]

Gawn is still the best ruck in the competition. Only NicNat is in the same league for impact on games. I rate Grundy super highly but have seen a lot of ridiculous premature ejaculation about him being the best, he isn’t there yet.

What does Gawn do better than NicNat and Grundy as a ruckman?

 

[Scotland]

He was a great footballer, but not a great ruckman.

Cool.

Remarkable that he managed to play 290 games in the ruck.

 

[schmuttt]

What does Gawn do better than NicNat and Grundy as a ruckman?

Better actual ruck and mark than Grundy, better mark than NN and I’d say their hitout work is even.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Gawn is still the best ruck in the competition. Only NicNat is in the same league for impact on games. I rate Grundy super highly but have seen a lot of ridiculous premature ejaculation about him being the best, he isn’t there yet.

I think calls of Grundy being the best ruckman in the league are premature, but not ridiculous - given how he has performed the first 6 rounds. (Where its very easy to argue that right now, he is in AA form).

He still has areas to improve (1. Having a plan B and C when the opposition is roving his taps, and 2. Still has those odd kicks out of congestion that lead to turnovers). His marking could improve, but as a guy who should spend 85% gametime in the ruck its pretty adequate.
But he is still only 23 and has improved hugely in each of those areas over the last 12-18 months.

Now Gawn has proven to be better over a longer period of time, and is clearly a better tap ruckman. But I would take Grundy's work around the ground. A fit NicNat is arguably more impactful than both - but how long does he stat fully fit for?

Gawn is the best Ruckman in the league right now.

But if I was to choose a Ruck to have for the next 8 years, i am extremely happy that my club has Grundy. (And I am sure Melbourne fans are just as happy about having Gawn).

If Grundy keeps improving then the Cox-Sandi comparison would be fair. One was clearly superior in the ruck, but the other was better around the ground. Both clubs would say their player was the better Ruckman and have a good argument - I personally dont think you can separate them. I would be very happy if Brodie can get to that level and stay there for his career - and being on par with Gawn for their careers would be great achievement.

 

[schmuttt]

I think calls of Grundy being the best ruckman in the league are premature, but not ridiculous - given how he has performed the first 6 rounds. (Where its very easy to argue that right now, he is in AA form).

He still has areas to improve (1. Having a plan B and C when the opposition is roving his taps, and 2. Still has those odd kicks out of congestion that lead to turnovers). His marking could improve, but as a guy who should spend 85% gametime in the ruck its pretty adequate.
But he is still only 23 and has improved hugely in each of those areas over the last 12-18 months.

Now Gawn has proven to be better over a longer period of time, and is clearly a better tap ruckman. But I would take Grundy's work around the ground. A fit NicNat is arguably more impactful than both - but how long does he stat fully fit for?

Gawn is the best Ruckman in the league right now.

But if I was to choose a Ruck to have for the next 8 years, i am extremely happy that my club has Grundy. (And I am sure Melbourne fans are just as happy about having Gawn).

If Grundy keeps improving then the Cox-Sandi comparison would be fair. One was clearly superior in the ruck, but the other was better around the ground. Both clubs would say their player was the better Ruckman and have a good argument - I personally dont think you can separate them. I would be very happy if Brodie can get to that level and stay there for his career - and being on par with Gawn for their careers would be great achievement.

Don't disagree with this and I think Grundy will in time be the clear best ruck in the comp.

 

[Damon_3388]

Better actual ruck and mark than Grundy, better mark than NN and I’d say their hitout work is even.

What about his ruckwork is better than Grundy?

Marking doesn't really have anything to do with actual ruckwork either, and mark totals can be as much a result of situations and game style rather than inate skill (hence why we see non-key position players leading the league in marks over the last couple of years).

 

[Damon_3388]

Cool.

Remarkable that he managed to play 290 games in the ruck.

Well, he added something else to make up for his less-than-great ruckwork, which made him an effective footballer.

Let's be clear though - uncontested possies and marks and goals don't equate to great ruckwork, because they're not role-specific actions, and aren't the reason someone should be considered a great ruckman.

 

[schmuttt]

What about his ruckwork is better than Grundy?

Marking doesn't really have anything to do with actual ruckwork either, and mark totals can be as much a result of situations and game style rather than inate skill (hence why we see non-key position players leading the league in marks over the last couple of years).

Uh, the fact he gets more hitouts to advantage? Last count he had over double Grundy for the year.

 

[jatz14]

Uh, the fact he gets more hitouts to advantage? Last count he had over double Grundy for the year.

I think the comparison is to Cox, not NN.

 

[Scotland]

Well, he added something else to make up for his less-than-great ruckwork, which made him an effective footballer.

Let's be clear though - uncontested possies and marks and goals don't equate to great ruckwork, because they're not role-specific actions, and aren't the reason someone should be considered a great ruckman.

Do you actually watch many games of football? Or just analyse statistical patterns? I'm staggered that anyone who watched Dean Cox play would think that his ruckwork wasn't excellent. At one point IIRC Cox-Kerr, Cox-Judd and Cox-Cousins filled 3 of the top 4 places for ruckman to midfielder combinations over the course of a season. If you think Cox was basically just a better version of Josh Fraser then I worry what other opinions you have on players.

Being a ruckman isn't just about ruck taps. If Max Gawn just lumbered around doing * all except competing at centre bounces and stoppages he'd probably be in the VFL, and he's a jet. But he covers the ground well for a huge man, contributes at ground level, is a strong mark etc. Which is part of the reason he's a jet.

Naitanui is the best tap ruckman in the comp. You could put him up against Robert Wadlow at centre bounces and he'd still get his hand to the ball first. But being able to run and jump at the ball isn't enough. He is a star not only because of centre square taps but because of his second efforts. As much as we'd like it to not every single centre bounce ends up down Shuey's throat putting him clear for a shot from 50. Opposition teams are smarter than that. Naitanui hunts the contest at ground level and follows up with repeat efforts. Tackles, bumps, just tapping the ball forward. Etc. When he goes forward he takes pack marks and creates goals. That's a big part of what makes him a jet.

Is this great ruckwork?

 

[Hard Ball Get]

People are obsessed with player x being better than player y.

Why can't we just celebrate them all as great Ruckman?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

People are obsessed with player x being better than player y.

Why can't we just celebrate them all as great Ruckman?

Because we revel in a dick measuring contest.

 

[Hellgood]

Do you actually watch many games of football? Or just analyse statistical patterns? I'm staggered that anyone who watched Dean Cox play would think that his ruckwork wasn't excellent. At one point IIRC Cox-Kerr, Cox-Judd and Cox-Cousins filled 3 of the top 4 places for ruckman to midfielder combinations over the course of a season. If you think Cox was basically just a better version of Josh Fraser then I worry what other opinions you have on players.

Being a ruckman isn't just about ruck taps. If Max Gawn just lumbered around doing **** all except competing at centre bounces and stoppages he'd probably be in the VFL, and he's a jet. But he covers the ground well for a huge man, contributes at ground level, is a strong mark etc. Which is part of the reason he's a jet.

Naitanui is the best tap ruckman in the comp. You could put him up against Robert Wadlow at centre bounces and he'd still get his hand to the ball first. But being able to run and jump at the ball isn't enough. He is a star not only because of centre square taps but because of his second efforts. As much as we'd like it to not every single centre bounce ends up down Shuey's throat putting him clear for a shot from 50. Opposition teams are smarter than that. Naitanui hunts the contest at ground level and follows up with repeat efforts. Tackles, bumps, just tapping the ball forward. Etc. When he goes forward he takes pack marks and creates goals. That's a big part of what makes him a jet.

Is this great ruckwork?

Cox was so good around the ground that his ruck work has become seemingly under-appreciated.

I don't think Kerr, Judd and Cousins would forget the platter he helped serve up to them each week though.

 

[Damon_3388]

Uh, the fact he gets more hitouts to advantage? Last count he had over double Grundy for the year.

The difference in totals could have something to do with the fact that Gawn participates in a lot more ruck contests than most other ruckmen (similar to Todd Goldstein 2-3 years ago). Gawn is #1 in the league in ruck contests per game (79.83), while Grundy is #11 (64.66).

I'd say the small difference in hitout-to-advantage percentage (34.3% vs. 31.9% in favour of Gawn, #4 and #5 in the league among full-time ruckmen respectively) is cancelled out by Grundy averaging more than double the number of clearances per game (5.83 vs. 2.50).

 

[schmuttt]

The difference in totals could have something to do with the fact that Gawn participates in a lot more ruck contests than most other ruckmen (similar to Todd Goldstein 2-3 years ago). Gawn is #1 in the league in ruck contests per game (79.83), while Grundy is #11 (64.66).

I'd say the small difference in hitout-to-advantage percentage (34.3% vs. 31.9% in favour of Gawn, #4 and #5 in the league among full-time ruckmen respectively) is cancelled out by Grundy averaging more than double the number of clearances per game (5.83 vs. 2.50).

Where are you getting these stats? I had a look before and couldn't find them.

 

[Damon_3388]

Do you actually watch many games of football? Or just analyse statistical patterns? I'm staggered that anyone who watched Dean Cox play would think that his ruckwork wasn't excellent. At one point IIRC Cox-Kerr, Cox-Judd and Cox-Cousins filled 3 of the top 4 places for ruckman to midfielder combinations over the course of a season. If you think Cox was basically just a better version of Josh Fraser then I worry what other opinions you have on players.

Why is watching games and referring to stats to prove or refute ideas mutually exclusive?

I'm not denying that Cox was a great, effective footballer. I just think his actual ruckwork was somewhat overrated, and people lazily assess him as a great ruckman because of things that didn't actually have anything to do with ruckwork. That he had talented midfielders around him that could profit and fill the gaps in his game also allowed him to be the player he was, too.

Being a ruckman isn't just about ruck taps. If Max Gawn just lumbered around doing **** all except competing at centre bounces and stoppages he'd probably be in the VFL, and he's a jet. But he covers the ground well for a huge man, contributes at ground level, is a strong mark etc. Which is part of the reason he's a jet.

That's great. It's not something that really needs to be explained to me though, either. I probably go to greater lengths than anyone else on this site analysing and discuss what actually makes up great ruckwork. To me, ruckwork isn't about uncontested possessions (what are the other mids doing?), or marking the ball, or kicking goals, or dropping back into defence (what are your defenders for). It's about using your size and strength to win the ball for your team, protect your midfielders, give them space to do their thing, or (if the other team win the ball) help to hinder their progress away from the stoppages. It's the ultimate team role, doing the dirty work for your team, to make it easier for everyone else.

Naitanui is the best tap ruckman in the comp. You could put him up against Robert Wadlow at centre bounces and he'd still get his hand to the ball first. But being able to run and jump at the ball isn't enough. He is a star not only because of centre square taps but because of his second efforts. As much as we'd like it to not every single centre bounce ends up down Shuey's throat putting him clear for a shot from 50. Opposition teams are smarter than that. Naitanui hunts the contest at ground level and follows up with repeat efforts. Tackles, bumps, just tapping the ball forward. Etc. When he goes forward he takes pack marks and creates goals. That's a big part of what makes him a jet.

Yeah, I agree, and if you were aware of my posting history, you'd realise I'm probably Naitanui's strongest advocate on this site (at least among non-Eagles supporters, anyway), explaining his value and why he's one of the most impactful players in the game.

Is this great ruckwork?

It's great, it's also a single highlight.

My overall point is, the thing people remember Cox for as a ruckman, are things that don't actually have anything to do with ruckwork. I'm not saying he was a bad ruckman, but he wasn't known as a tapwork artist or bull around the stoppages either.

Big men racking up cheap footy around the ground has become shorthand for "great ruckwork" because of Cox and Jim Stynes, when it really has nothing to do with it, and it's a very lazy assessment to make.

 

[Damon_3388]

Where are you getting these stats? I had a look before and couldn't find them.

AFL StatsPro.

 

[Plat]

-Clayton Oliver is a top 5 midfielder at the moment
-Bolton and Fagan would have more scrutiny on them if not for coming from the Clarkson coaching tree.
-Gerard Whately is the biggest fence sitter in the industry and horribly overrated
- Allen Richardson will be first coach sacked this year.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Yeah, I agree, and if you were aware of my posting history, you'd realise I'm probably Naitanui's strongest advocate on this site (at least among non-Eagles supporters, anyway), explaining his value and why he's one of the most impactful players in the game.

It's hard to disagree with this. Even prior to the past 2-3 years when it has become more popular to recognise Naitanui's impact, Damon_3388, alongside a few Freo fans, has been one of his staunchest defenders.

 

[Big Blood]

Hey, can we get back to unpopular opinions.

I quite like Eddie's commentating (as against everything else he does in footy).

In a world of Dwayne, Basil and Bruce it's a low bar, but he keeps it simple. Doesn't gush and drop cringey one-liners. Doesn't bore us with irrelevant stats and stale anecdotes. OK, the jumper-pulling at 3/4 time last weekend got him talking about the battle of Windy Hill, but hey we can all dream can't we?

Also he manages to mangle the language in amusing ways. He called a mark by Heeney "absolutely sensational and magnificent."

 

[Scotland]

Why is watching games and referring to stats to prove or refute ideas mutually exclusive?

I'm not denying that Cox was a great, effective footballer. I just think his actual ruckwork was somewhat overrated, and people lazily assess him as a great ruckman because of things that didn't actually have anything to do with ruckwork. That he had talented midfielders around him that could profit and fill the gaps in his game also allowed him to be the player he was, too.

Why? See the bolded.

Dean Cox's ruck work was excellent. Stef Martin gets more of the ball than Dean Cox did, but people don't rate him as highly. Cox was AA half a dozen times because he was always one of the top few ruckmen for hit outs, he put it to the advantage of our midfielders and he was so good around the ground.

That's great. It's not something that really needs to be explained to me though, either. I probably go to greater lengths than anyone else on this site analysing and discuss what actually makes up great ruckwork. To me, ruckwork isn't about uncontested possessions (what are the other mids doing?), or marking the ball, or kicking goals, or dropping back into defence (what are your defenders for). It's about using your size and strength to win the ball for your team, protect your midfielders, give them space to do their thing, or (if the other team win the ball) help to hinder their progress away from the stoppages. It's the ultimate team role, doing the dirty work for your team, to make it easier for everyone else.

I think it's a pretty narrow focus. Is Sam Jacobs a good ruckman? Sandilands? Goldstein?

It's great, it's also a single highlight.

There are plenty of other highlights of him floating around. Pack marks, goals from stoppages, general Naitanuiness. It's not all ruck taps.

My overall point is, the thing people remember Cox for as a ruckman, are things that don't actually have anything to do with ruckwork. I'm not saying he was a bad ruckman, but he wasn't known as a tapwork artist or bull around the stoppages either.

Big men racking up cheap footy around the ground has become shorthand for "great ruckwork" because of Cox and Jim Stynes, when it really has nothing to do with it, and it's a very lazy assessment to make.

People are idiots. Cox didn't even rack up that much footy. At his and our peak he was getting 15, 16, 17 touches a game. What made him stand out, other than his ruck work and his beak, is how skillful and mobile he was. The '5th midfielder' thing wasn't about Cox getting 20 or 30 touches, but about being capable by foot and able to cover territory meaning our midifelders trusted him as though he was a small. Traditionally guys his size would just stand there and handball to whoever was closest and if under pressure would kick the ball long down the line. He might not have been a 'bull' but he got 2.8 clearances a game compared to Grundy who gets 3.4. Hardly worlds apart. He got more later in his career when we had a weaker midfield around him.