Whateley's wrap

[fabulousphil]

Yeah well you can't prove that I didn't didn't not do it and you can also f off.

Plus don't you care for my long term health? **** you

We are simply seeking justice, confess to the 8 murders and we will slap you with a wet lettuce leaf and free maccas

If you don't confess you must prove your innocence, we know something terrible happened, we know it, we know it and whatsmore we know it.

we just know it, Caro told us.

 

[Moquo]

Plus don't you care for my long term health? **** you

I care for your health. So don't go taking hundreds of injections of unknown substances, ok?

 

[kangaspurs]

I don't think you quite have your head around this. We're not talking about choosing Panodol or Nurofen and taking a pack off the shelf at Coles. These are substances that are produced via compounding. It's like me asking you to gather ingredients and make Panadol yourself, and then convince me it is actually Panadol, absolutely identical in a chemical sense. Without testing it.

Such dodgy supply chains were used and the substance was never tested properly post compounding. Nobody knows wtf it really was in its final chemical form.

ASADA didn't have the evidence to prove it was TB4 in a chemical sense, let alone if it went to Essendon and was given to players.

Comfortable satisfaction is a purposefully low burden of proof. There is no reasonable way these ridiculous cases could have been proven even at that level, nor should they even have been prosecuted. That's a question for the thoroughly moronic and incompetent Mr McDevitt.

Club sanctions were appropriate here and that's what happened.

I absolutely understand how the tribunal reached their conclusion in a legal sense, but if Essendon fans even have a modicum of common sense they would understand and accept that it is likely that TB4 was actually used on the players and stop criticising ASADA and McDevitt for investigating the injection program. Charters intended on sourcing the components for TB4, Alavi believed he was compounding it and Dank contacted Alavi about acquiring it and yet the tribunal could not be comfortably satisfied that any of this happened because of the disgraceful records kept by Essendon, a questionable chain of custody and the unreliability of those involved. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck: it's a duck! But because the duck is unreliable and it doesn't have a birth cerificate or any form of I.D we're not comfortably satisfied that it is a duck. Don't you or your fellow fans understand how ridiculous that sounds? It's not a low standard of proof, it's higher than the balance of probabilities, and on the balance of probabilities these things happened. Yet there are still some who shout that Essendon are completely innocent in the whole scandal and it's ASADA who should be condemned for running a completely legal investigation into doping violations in an attempt to keep the sport clean and on a level playing field; it's utterly nonsensical.

 

[Moquo]

We are simply seeking justice, confess to the 8 murders and we will slap you with a wet lettuce leaf and free maccas

If you don't confess you must prove your innocence, we know something terrible happened, we know it, we know it and whatsmore we know it.

we just know it, Caro told us.

As long as no one tells the truth he's scot-free. Haven't you been paying attention?

 

[DapperJong]

We are simply seeking justice, confess to the 8 murders and we will slap you with a wet lettuce leaf and free maccas

If you don't confess you must prove your innocence, we know something terrible happened, we know it, we know it and whatsmore we know it.

we just know it, Caro told us.

Free maccas?

See McDevitt, this is how deals are done.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

I am pretty sure you murdered 8 people last year and did a drive by after doing a drive off at Maccas , prove that you didn't.

On that basis ASADA will hound you to the end of the earth.

Phil,

I have always respected, although disagreed with, your position on this issue but the analogy above is pretty poor.

If Dappper had ten friends who testified that he was at a party when the crimes were committed and there were photos of him at the party, perhaps with a clocki the background even, then I imagine the case against him would not be pursued. But if his friends could only say that they think he was at the party but couldn't be sure and investigators had pictures of him in the vicinity of the crimes then there would be grounds for investigating further.

My point here is that neither Essendon nor the players could provide information on what the players were injected with, despite them be required to maintain this information. With this in mind I think ASADA were correct to pursue this matter as far as they did. I also think they should appeal the decision.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[fabulousphil]

Free maccas?

See McDevitt, this is how deals are done.

Mcdevitt is a extremely bad poker player, his tight mouth gives him away every time

Should have heeded his own internal advice

Angry little man.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I am pretty sure you murdered 8 people last year and did a drive by after doing a drive off at Maccas , prove that you didn't.

On that basis ASADA will hound you to the end of the earth.

We all know, you included, that ASADA didn't just randomly pluck Essendon out for the fun of it.

Hence your analogy is misleading and irrelevant.

 

[Armchair Critic]

I am pretty sure you murdered 8 people last year and did a drive by after doing a drive off at Maccas , prove that you didn't.

On that basis ASADA will hound you to the end of the earth.

One investigation with 1 interview over the space of 3 years of their lives is hounded to the earth, that is gold.

Complete and Utter BS but pure gold

 

[ziad]

Especially when sworn statements from the Chinese supplier are not believed, and it looks like a 'beyond all reasonable doubt' standard has been applied. Without testing of the substance, the tribunal seemed to be 'comfortably satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt' that the chinese supplier is selling glucose or some other inert substance without realising it. Or they're alleging the chinese supplier committed fraud (without any proof, of course).

There will be much more. But the AFL will not be running the show. I expect -2 years before WADA have finished. The fall out will be very interesting.

The landscape will change.

I have seen the effectiveness of PED at first hand and am very happy that somebody is working to catch cheats. Pity players are to dumb to understand they are the ones being protected.

 

[fabulousphil]

Phil,

I have always respected, although disagreed with, your position on this issue but the analogy above is pretty poor.

If Dappper had ten friends who testified that he was at a party when the crimes were committed and there were photos of him at the party, perhaps with a clocki the background even, then I imagine the case against him would not be pursued. But if his friends could only say that they think he was at the party but couldn't be sure and investigators had pictures of him in the vicinity of the crimes then there would be grounds for investigating further.

My point here is that neither Essendon nor the players could provide information on what the players were injected with, despite them be required to maintain this information. With this in mind I think ASADA were correct to pursue this matter as far as they did. I also think they should appeal the decision.

Regards

S. Pete

yep i have had better analogy, fair enough, i have felt all through this that rather than Essendon be given a fair trial they were strung drawn and quartered and considered guilty, and the HTB was quite frankly disgraceful

IMO people have expected the players to prove innocence rather than the normal rules we expect and that is they must be proven guilty

 

[DapperJong]

We all know, you included, that ASADA didn't just randomly pluck Essendon out for the fun of it.

Hence your analogy is misleading and irrelevant.

One investigation with 1 interview over the space of 3 years of their lives is hounded to the earth, that is gold.

Complete and Utter BS but pure gold

come on m8s have a laugh

 

[DapperJong]

If Dappper had ten friends

'

Sadly, that's where your argument falls short.

 

[fabulousphil]

One investigation with 1 interview over the space of 3 years of their lives is hounded to the earth, that is gold.

Complete and Utter BS but pure gold

You have done a couple of years of hounding, you were pretty good yourself, quite an investment in their guilt me thinks.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

yep i have had better analogy, fair enough, i have felt all through this that rather than Essendon be given a fair trial they were strung drawn and quartered and considered guilty, and the HTB was quite frankly disgraceful

IMO people have expected the players to prove innocence rather than the normal rules we expect and that is they must be proven guilty

Face it - you picked a side like most people did, and became irrational, illogical and petty in your stance once you'd made it.

No different to most.

 

[mxett]

The first half of this video contains a wrap-up by the most accomplished journalist on this saga, by far.

As usual he doesn't favour either side, just tells it like it is. Worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

Wouldn't pay much attention to Robbo obviously.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/video/i...qcxm/AFL-360:-Why-ASADA's-Bombers-case-failed

Wow, that's it folks. Not a chance in hell an appeal is coming after hearing how badly the case failed

 

[Chameleon75]

'

Sadly, that's where your argument falls short.

Its lonely being a dictator

 

[Armchair Critic]

You have done a couple of years of hounding, you were pretty good yourself, quite an investment in their guilt me thinks.

I hounded players , staff did I. It just shows how out of touch with reality you are Fabs

 

[fabulousphil]

Face it - you picked a side like most people did, and became irrational, illogical and petty in your stance once you'd made it.

No different to most.

In no way do i dispute that i am irrational, illogical and petty, but when you back a winner who gives

Gosford race 7 pinball lass, my tip for the week and has been injected with TB4 left over

In all seriousness though, that is a good tip.

In more seriousness though, i was pretty sure Hird and the players were unfairly smeared and i could not lose.

 

[Seadog]

I don't think you quite have your head around this. We're not talking about choosing Panodol or Nurofen and taking a pack off the shelf at Coles. These are substances that are produced via compounding. It's like me asking you to gather ingredients and make Panadol yourself, and then convince me it is actually Panadol, absolutely identical in a chemical sense. Without testing it.

Such dodgy supply chains were used and the substance was never tested properly post compounding. Nobody knows wtf it really was in its final chemical form.

ASADA didn't have the evidence to prove it was TB4 in a chemical sense, let alone if it went to Essendon and was given to players.

Comfortable satisfaction is a purposefully low burden of proof. There is no reasonable way these ridiculous cases could have been proven even at that level, nor should they even have been prosecuted. That's a question for the thoroughly moronic and incompetent Mr McDevitt.

Club sanctions were appropriate here and that's what happened.

So what we apparently have here is Charter ordering some stuff from China without knowing what it was, giving it to Alavi and he compounded it without knowing what the stuff was. Alavi gives it to Dank who reckons he knows what it was but he's not telling anyone. Essendon players then allowed themselves to be injected with stuff without knowing what it was. of course it only follows that no one at the club knew what the stuff was.
Pretty clear who the morons are.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I've got admit, my understanding of 'comfortable satisfaction' was way off the mark.

I'm still struggling to understand how anyone would need a drug to be actually tested before being comfortably satisfied that it is what the people who made it, bought it, and compounded it said it was??

Seems strange to me. And clearly shows I'm out of my depth on how this shit all works.

 

[Armchair Critic]

come on m8s have a laugh

I am laughing ,laughing at Fabs

 

[blackcat]

Vitamin C

Vitamin cjc

 

[Malifice]

I don't think you quite have your head around this. We're not talking about choosing Panodol or Nurofen and taking a pack off the shelf at Coles. These are substances that are produced via compounding. It's like me asking you to gather ingredients and make Panadol yourself, and then convince me it is actually Panadol, absolutely identical in a chemical sense. Without testing it.

And the tribunal found that Alavi compounded 'the mystery drug that everyone thought was TB4' as TB4.

ASADA didn't have the evidence to prove it was TB4 in a chemical sense, let alone if it went to Essendon and was given to players.

To be fair, the Tribunal didnt consider if 'the mystery drug that Dank, Alavi, some Chinese Biochem company and Charters considered to be TB4' was given to the players, as there was no need.

Weirdly, it did find that Dank and co covered their tracks afterwards with lies and forged documents.

Comfortable satisfaction is a purposefully low burden of proof.

Comfortable satisfaction is the second highest burden of proof that exists, after 'beyond reasonable doubt' Briginshaw levels of proof is rarely applied in civil matters (although I did win a case on it a few weeks back in my personal work).

Barring criminal matters, the lions share of all other areas of law (contract, torts, etc) are determined on the much lower 'balance of probabilities' as are most defenses in criminal matters.

 

[fabulousphil]

I am laughing ,laughing at Fabs

I can understand you attempting to be a nasty pasty, with your huge investment and all, many many thousands of posts, what stage in the grieving process do you think you are up to ?.