What's a realistic expectation for Collingwood in 2017?

[Frank Gallagher]

Yeah, but then you read on to see that Jack Crisp is rated higher than Jack Viney, then you shake your head and close the tab.

It's based on the last 2 years, Crisp came 3rd in our BaF in 2015.

 

[adammania9]

It's based on the last 2 years, Crisp came 3rd in our BaF in 2015.

Yeah but Viney is an unbelievable inside grunt worker; Crisp is just a vanilla midfielder with a bit of flare.

 

[Donakebab]

Really?




COLLINGWOOD coach Nathan Buckley will be armed with the game’s top-ranked midfield in his make-or-break 2017 season, according to Champion Data.
The AFL’s official-number crunchers have delivered a glowing endorsement of the Magpies’ prime movers using a complex formula to asses each midfielder’s output over the past two years, in comparison to their peers.
Led by superstar ballwinners Scott Pendlebury and Adam Treloar, the Pies have six top-end midfielders who are classified as elite or above average, bolstering claims Collingwood has the centre square setup to break its three-year finals drought next season.

Good call dude.



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...t/news-story/0454702aa6527ac5461a7cabca9192bf

You know it's utter garbage when it claims Caddy and Edwards are elite, let alone rating Collingwood's midfield as the best.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

You know it's utter garbage when it claims Caddy and Edwards are elite, let alone rating Collingwood's midfield as the best.

It's pretty much the definition of "on paper", which was the point I was making, and you know what papers good for.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Yeah but Viney is an unbelievable inside grunt worker; Crisp is just a vanilla midfielder with a bit of flare.

Crisp had a much better 2015 than Viney.

 

[PieLebo87]

Crisp had a much better 2015 than Viney.

But there's no romance for Crisp. Plus he plays for Collingwood...

 

[LeverPuller]

It's based on the last 2 years, Crisp came 3rd in our BaF in 2015.

Viney came 2nd in Melbourne's in 2015 (despite missing 6 games with a broken leg) and won it in 2016. There's a flaw here.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Viney came 2nd in Melbourne's in 2015 (despite missing 6 games with a broken leg) and won it in 2016. There's a flaw here.

Who was Viney competing against in his BaF? Crisp was competing with Swan and Pendlebury who came 1st and 2nd.

Very different players, Crisp is a goal kicking outside mid with pace, Viney's a pure hard as a cats head inside mid, I agree Viney's a better player but stats wise there's not a lot in it over the last 2 years.

 

[LeverPuller]

Who was Viney competing against in his BaF? Crisp was competing with Swan and Pendlebury who came 1st and 2nd.

Very different players, Crisp is a goal kicking outside mid with pace, Viney's a pure hard as a cats head inside mid, I agree Viney's a better player but stats wise there's not a lot in it over the last 2 years.

Gawn (AA), Nate Jones (3x BnF), Bernie Vince (1x Ade BnF, 1x MFC BnF), Jesse Hogan (2015 RS).

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Gawn (AA), Nate Jones (3x BnF), Bernie Vince (1x Ade BnF, 1x MFC BnF), Jesse Hogan (2015 RS).

Hardly the calibre of Swan and Pendlebury.

 

[adammania9]

Hardly the calibre of Swan and Pendlebury.

He finished behind both. At least Viney won his. Please don't compare the two; even as a Pies fan I can comfortably say Viney is light years ahead of Crisp. I'm all for optimism but come on

 

[Frank Gallagher]

He finished behind both. At least Viney won his. Please don't compare the two; even as a Pies fan I can comfortably say Viney is light years ahead of Crisp. I'm all for optimism but come on

I never suggested Crisp was a better player, in fact I said the exact opposite.

 

[Giant Pete]

Here's the thing... Bulldogs have suckling, JJ, Boyd, Murphy (obviously question mark with him) as rebound options... Boyd knows his limits and the other three are proven to be great by foot.
Giants have Shaw, Wilson, Williams are all great kicks, take the game on constantly and are all quick.

 

[master bate]

Crisp had a much better 2015 than Viney.

Much better is an overstatement, Viney was very good in 2015 but missed 6 games. I'd give Crisp the edge because he played 22 games.

But then this year Crisp was pretty much the definition of a solid ordinary role player. Aside from a few down games Viney played some phenomenal footy when he was best on ground on multiple occasions.

Whatever the lead Crisp had in 2015 should've been swallowed up in 2016.

Missed games due to injuries can't be too much of a factor given Wells missed all of 2015 and some of 2016.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

Too early for the annual 'where are Collingwood at' thread?

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Much better is an overstatement, Viney was very good in 2015 but missed 6 games. I'd give Crisp the edge because he played 22 games.

But then this year Crisp was pretty much the definition of a solid ordinary role player. Aside from a few down games Viney played some phenomenal footy when he was best on ground on multiple occasions.

Whatever the lead Crisp had in 2015 should've been swallowed up in 2016.

Missed games due to injuries can't be too much of a factor given Wells missed all of 2015 and some of 2016.

I'm just trying give reason why CD rate Crisp ahead of Viney over the last 2 seasons, I'm not suggesting Crisp is a better player.

 

[master bate]

I'm just trying give reason why CD rate Crisp ahead of Viney over the last 2 seasons, I'm not suggesting Crisp is a better player.

Yep I know. My point was I can see how they did it for 2015 but it should've more than balanced up this year.

I also don't get how they rate Wells so highly.

If it's like a golf or tennis rating where you get ranking points not only for playing well but for the amount of times you plan then he must've got a lot of points for only a dozen or so good to great games with some ok ones, some injured in game/some missed with injury this year and nothing in 15.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Yep I know. My point was I can see how they did it for 2015 but it should've more than balanced up this year.

I also don't get how they rate Wells so highly.

If it's like a golf or tennis rating where you get ranking points not only for playing well but for the amount of times you plan then he must've got a lot of points for only a dozen or so good to great games with some ok ones, some injured in game/some missed with injury this year and nothing in 15.

Maybe they rate goals kicked higher than they should, that's pretty much the only stat Crisp leads Viney in from what I can tell, probably metres gained as well.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

The way I see it panning out is - They win a couple of pre season games leading the media to declare them top 4 chances. Lose 6 of the first ten games and the pressure goes on Bucks. A couple of false dawns when they beat Sydney and/or West Coast before it all falls away ending the season with 9-10 wins.
So pretty much business as usual.

How's beating West Coast a false dawn? Most overrated team in the comp.

 

[nineteen eighty]

You know it's utter garbage when it claims Caddy and Edwards are elite, let alone rating Collingwood's midfield as the best.

I'll stay away from the Caddy discussion but if anyone can convince me that Edwards is elite, I'll walk naked holding a placard of him from Sydney to Melbourne for the opening game against the Blues. He has talent but is far from elite!

 

[lionshine]

They have a great midfield on paper, Grundy is a good young ruck, Moore looks like a future star and Reid is a gun when fit, however, I think going forward their list is in a bit of trouble. I don't see them making finals in 2017 I rate them more around the 10th-13th mark, from 2018 onwards though they could push into finals territory although with their key position players I can't see them doing anything else than making up the numbers even if they do sneak into 7th or 8th spot. This is where their problem lies. Their side is decent, it isn't spectacular but it is a solid list. Unfortunately for them it places them in no mans land. If in some alternate reality they added Weitering and Schache to their side I could see them pushing for a flag in 3-4 years time with Weitering/Reid down back and Schache/Moore up forward. Unfortunately for them due to the fact that they sit in no mans land they won't have access to the elite top end talent of the draft such as a prospect like Weitering which means they will slowly drift to the point where Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Reid, Varcoe and Wells retire without competing.

What they could do is recruit a gun key defender through trade/free agency(This should be their main priority) and also find a decent key forward to partner with Moore through the same means because it is highly unlikely they'll be able to draft gun key position players for these positions with draft picks around 9-12 and even if they did I doubt they'd be ready before guys like Pendlebury and Reid drop in form due to age. If they were able to recruit a gun key defender and a serviceable key forward that would put them in contention. If you add Rance and Josh Bruce to their side I'd have them firmly in the flag hunt as early as next year.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Maybe they rate goals kicked higher than they should, that's pretty much the only stat Crisp leads Viney in from what I can tell, probably metres gained as well.

Article says it's based on output over the last two years and says "the analysis factors in the effectiveness, impact and position of players possessions in the 2015 and 2016 seasons."

So perhaps Crisp has a lot of effective disposals, in damaging positions on the field (eg, forward of centre, as opposed to behind centre), that regularly result (either directly or indirectly) in scores for his team.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Well with comps best midfield its not good enough to not make the finals next year

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Here's the thing... Bulldogs have suckling, JJ, Boyd, Murphy (obviously question mark with him) as rebound options... Boyd knows his limits and the other three are proven to be great by foot.
Giants have Shaw, Wilson, Williams are all great kicks, take the game on constantly and are all quick.[/QUOT

They have a great midfield on paper, Grundy is a good young ruck, Moore looks like a future star and Reid is a gun when fit, however, I think going forward their list is in a bit of trouble. I don't see them making finals in 2017 I rate them more around the 10th-13th mark, from 2018 onwards though they could push into finals territory although with their key position players I can't see them doing anything else than making up the numbers even if they do sneak into 7th or 8th spot. This is where their problem lies. Their side is decent, it isn't spectacular but it is a solid list. Unfortunately for them it places them in no mans land. If in some alternate reality they added Weitering and Schache to their side I could see them pushing for a flag in 3-4 years time with Weitering/Reid down back and Schache/Moore up forward. Unfortunately for them due to the fact that they sit in no mans land they won't have access to the elite top end talent of the draft such as a prospect like Weitering which means they will slowly drift to the point where Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Reid, Varcoe and Wells retire without competing.

What they could do is recruit a gun key defender through trade/free agency(This should be their main priority) and also find a decent key forward to partner with Moore through the same means because it is highly unlikely they'll be able to draft gun key position players for these positions with draft picks around 9-12 and even if they did I doubt they'd be ready before guys like Pendlebury and Reid drop in form due to age. If they were able to recruit a gun key defender and a serviceable key forward that would put them in contention. If you add Rance and Josh Bruce to their side I'd have them firmly in the flag hunt as early as next year.

They have a great midfield on paper, Grundy is a good young ruck, Moore looks like a future star and Reid is a gun when fit, however, I think going forward their list is in a bit of trouble. I don't see them making finals in 2017 I rate them more around the 10th-13th mark, from 2018 onwards though they could push into finals territory although with their key position players I can't see them doing anything else than making up the numbers even if they do sneak into 7th or 8th spot. This is where their problem lies. Their side is decent, it isn't spectacular but it is a solid list. Unfortunately for them it places them in no mans land. If in some alternate reality they added Weitering and Schache to their side I could see them pushing for a flag in 3-4 years time with Weitering/Reid down back and Schache/Moore up forward. Unfortunately for them due to the fact that they sit in no mans land they won't have access to the elite top end talent of the draft such as a prospect like Weitering which means they will slowly drift to the point where Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Reid, Varcoe and Wells retire without competing.

What they could do is recruit a gun key defender through trade/free agency(This should be their main priority) and also find a decent key forward to partner with Moore through the same means because it is highly unlikely they'll be able to draft gun key position players for these positions with draft picks around 9-12 and even if they did I doubt they'd be ready before guys like Pendlebury and Reid drop in form due to age. If they were able to recruit a gun key defender and a serviceable key forward that would put them in contention. If you add Rance and Josh Bruce to their side I'd have them firmly in the flag hunt as early as next year.

Yep, 2 KPPs of note and one of them is injury prone, we did use our first pick on a tall this year, and rookied a couple more, but IMO we really needed to trade up in this years draft, someone like Sidebottom would've netted us a nice pick, that would've been my move.

 

[PieLebo87]

Well with comps best midfield its not good enough to not make the finals next year

Stating the obvious there.