Whats our weakest Line?

Aug 27, 2014
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We still have a few areas of would like to be stronger in.
I'd love a quick small defender and a quick small goal kicking forward.
Which is why Papley was the number one target in trade period but Swans rightfully for their own list were not willing to let him go.
But both those areas could still have a young player that has not established that role is theirs to make for this decade and already be on our list.
But the fact I can see this means these areas can still be made stronger on our list.


I want the bonus/ideal.
Until we are there , in midst of multiple premierships there is a weakness...
Hope club never gets so complacent again. We are not there. Aim for abundance, that is where we need our list.
OP only able to name one or two names is not an abundance.

well that was not the point of my OP.
I actually meant the post you replied with suggestion Poison and Owies to my post about our weakest areas are small defender and small goal kicking forward.
Only typed OP as could not remember your poster name off top of my head at time of that post.

Polson for the small defender? owies for the small forward. Remains to be seen if they have what it takes
....
Which is why want list stronger. If those guys were secondary or third options it would be much stronger in those list areas. Fact is when we won three premierships in four years when I was a kid the small goal kicking forward had 3 or 4 stand out options of Vin Catoggio, Ken Sheldon, Alex Marcou, Rod Ashman or Jimmy Buckley and also had back ups like Rod Waddell or Leneghan. I want abundant options for all areas. Not just one or two which is all we can name for those roles at present and we not even sure if either will make it at this point. Like Sumner, LeBois and Pickett maybe in two years time Owies if off list. Need more options to have no weakness on our list. Papley would have been a stand out option. So close, yet so far.
 
Mar 1, 2005
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Yes, goal kicking midfielders, goal kicking ruckmen, goal kicking wingers, goal kicking forwards. It is how we have the best premiership winning sides that do it more than one year have gone. Until our list has all these things, this notion some people post about of list is done or finished is complacent at best and would scare me if inside club they thinking the same. I really hope what SOS was building towards is continued and not thinking the work is done....

I agree thats the end game. But it is entirely possible that we have those on our list now, its just that they need to add that to their game (some already have) List maturation brings all sorts of benefits- knowing what each other does and how they will react in any situation , developing goal kicking to add to you main role , real afl fitness to fight fatigue (mental and physical) . List continuity and cohesiveness is underrated IMO. B grade players can shine in a well drilled and matured list simply because of all the synergies.
I think we have the right guy in charge in Dt, encouraging the players to play to their strengths- hopefully giving us a look at those skills so we can plan accordingly. Emboldening the list will bring mistakes and no doubt harsh criticism on here by some . But at the end of the day , we see what they are capable of . Players that might have been delisted eg Jones and Levi are shining examples of this .
 
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I agree thats the end game. But it is entirely possible that we have those on our list now,
Possibly but the proof is on the scoreboard and premierships. You keep improving the list to dynasty level and keep regenerating. Never assume it is done job.
Complacency is how clubs get nowhere.
I love our list better than anytime in last 25 years and want abundant talent overflowing via premiership cups.I like Teague and think we can continue to improve towards this goal. List management can never get complacent.
 
Well spread of goal kickers is the key - the hawks often had 12 different goal kickers during their threepeat. Its absolutely necessary to provide options to disrupt the opposition zones

Yes goal-kickers, whether small or medium sized.

Players Buckley and Sheldon have been brought up here and they were fair in the air as well as on the ground....especially Buckely.
They were both strong enough to beat their opponents and capable goal-kickers.
Marcou and Cattogio may be described more as crumbers, if my memory serves me well.

Someone like Martin has the craft to beat you in the air and on the ground and can kick goals and for now we have Betts, whose 'smarts' are too much for many an opponent, but after that we're lacking, as I don't see mids Dow nor Fisher ticking off too many boxes to become dangerous mid-forwards.
Cuningham may well though have the craft to make good in the forward line though.

What I'd like to see at years end, would be to acquire -
a. Papley/Rozee/Elliott type - They're all different but have qualities that bring about goals, bring others into the action and are good one on one.
b. Walters/Cameron types - A crumber that takes advantage of the spoils in the forward line.

In Summary - The forward line because of injury and lack of goal-kickers, post Betts.
 
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Cuningham may well though have the craft to make good in the forward line though.

In Summary - The forward line because of injury and lack of goal-kickers, post Betts.
Cuningham has it all to be a goal kicking mid or goal kicking forward.
What we need is more of his type we can feel confident in otherwise when he injured we are not up to scratch going on 2019 findings. When we got multiple types like him that can overlap between midfield and deep forward that hit scoreboard regularly then no weakness in front half.
 
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I think it is why we drafted a guy like Sam Philp for long term as one of many options we hope to develop going forward. SOS saw this weakness and still needed to draft guys for these areas.
Hopefully other guys that been developed for midfield in last couple of years also develop the goal kicking too as whole team develops offensively.
I am sure Teague is working on this type of development too. Would love to see Zac Fisher and others hit scoreboard more often in 2020 and still be used for midfield depth.
 
Cuningham has it all to be a goal kicking mid or goal kicking forward.
What we need is more of his type we can feel confident in otherwise when he injured we are not up to scratch going on 2019 findings. When we got multiple types like him that can overlap between midfield and deep forward that hit scoreboard regularly then no weakness in front half.

What I like about Cuningham also and why I think a forward role may suit him, is for his pressure acts.
He's always doing something in pack situations - Buffetting opponents, trying to slap the ball out of their hands, leaving space for team-mates etc
All these little things add to the lot, along with the fact he's damn elusive and can kick a goal. Ticks many boxes and only if he was strong in the air.

Fisher is quality but playing forward may limit his best traits. Could work, but we could do better.
Dow will do the impossible, but I just don't see him being reliable when playing forward.
 
Aug 27, 2014
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What I like about Cuningham also and why I think a forward role may suit him, is for his pressure acts.
He's always doing something in pack situations - Buffetting opponents, trying to slap the ball out of their hands, leaving space for team-mates etc
All these little things add to the lot, along with the fact he's damn elusive and can kick a goal. Ticks many boxes and only if he was strong in the air.

Fisher is quality but playing forward may limit his best traits. Could work, but we could do better.
Dow will do the impossible, but I just don't see him being reliable when playing forward.
I do not want Fisher stationed forward. I just want him to be like a Rod Ashman type midfielder that if near goals will kick them often or when resting down there for a quarter or two kicks a few on those days. So far he has not done enough goal kicking in line with his actual ability. They just need to develop that part of his game and think that will come with overall team cohesion which comes with playing with each other more often. I still think his best work is midfield where he hunts ball well and is attacking moving forward of centre. But when he starts forward like he did sometimes last year he has get more goals which think he can do in time. Kicking less than 10 goals for season is not doing justice to his own skill level.

Dow is one year less in system so he still one learning more about all his attributes. His break away speed is his best asset so far. He just needs to work on his tackling and finishing skills which could easily flow on when understand his own strengths and team style more. Both are midfielders first for mine, but no reason they can not be goal kickers too like the Sheldon's and Ashman's of early 80's premiership teams. But ultimately I count them as midfielders when I look at list.
For forwards we need more drafted and traded for next off season to become abundant.
 
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I do not want Fisher stationed forward. I just want him to be like a Rod Ashman type midfielder than if near goals will kick them often or when resting down there for a quarter or two kicks a few on those days. So far he has not done enough goal kicking in line with his actual ability. They just need to develop that part of his game and think that will come with overall team cohesion which comes with playing with each other more often. I still think his best work is midfield where he hunts ball well and is attacking moving forward of centre. But when he starts forward like he did sometimes last year he has get more goals which think he can do in time. Kicking less than 10 goals for season is not doing justice to his own skill level.

Dow is one year less in system so he still one learning more about all his attributes. His break away speed is his best asset so far. He just needs to work on his tackling and finishing skills which could easily flow on when understand his own strengths and team style more. Both are midfielders first for mine, but no reason they can not be goal kickers too like the Sheldon's and Ashman's of early 80's premiership teams. But ultimately I count them as midfielders when I look at list.
For forwards we need more drafted and traded for next off season to become abundant.

At best guess, I don't think Fisher wants a forward role either...and Dow...definitely not. Just watch him speak about playing forward.

That's why I say that some of our genuine mids may look elsewhere for opportunity.
It's easy to say just play them here and just play them there but if it doesn't work, the NB's beckon.....and after that?

Anyway, that's going of topic......Our forward line is the weakest link, but a turn or two, it could just as easily become our strongest.
 
Aug 27, 2014
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Staying on topic, I want that small quick defender too, to be an area of abundance. Hopefully we find more of them in coming years. I pretty optimistic one of later draft picks we got last draft period can become one or two of them in a few years when a Simpson gone.
 
Staying on topic, I want that small quick defender too, to be an area of abundance. Hopefully we find more of them in coming years. I pretty optimistic one of later draft picks we got last draft period can become one or two of them in a few years when a Simpson gone.

I think we already have that but don't know we have it.
Keep an eye out on Philps' development.
 
Aug 27, 2014
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I think we already have that but don't know we have it.
Keep an eye out on Philps' development.
Honey, Ramsey and Philips could all be options although one of them probably a bit too tall to match up on crumbing forwards of opposing sides. Time will tell.
It is a weakness if names are not obvious senior players.
 
Honey, Ramsey and Philips could all be options although one of them probably a bit too tall to match up on crumbing forwards of opposing sides. Time will tell.
It is a weakness if names are not obvious senior players.

Philp is the player I see being able to get those extra metres exiting the backline.
Kicking is seen as a bit of an issue...or at least it was in his draft year.

Point is that our starting midfield may be hard to break into, should even half of things go to plan.
Cripps, Setterfield, Walsh, Fisher and Dow look like the future to me and then we have Stocker, SPS, Kemp...with a little JSilvagni....it's starting to look a little crowded.

Anyway, we're not too far away from the NB's starting up and maybe things will open up a little then, as they did last year.
 
We are not yet hard enough at the ball. When we have it we butcher it or cough it up. We do not have enough accumulators to give us the opportunity in the midfield to get consistent forward fifty entries.

Spot on.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Course that is ideal/bonus, but doesn't always eventuate.

Go back, even the last 10 flags, two things stick out.

1. No elite ruckman, but both are a threat forward.

2. Midfielders occupying some of the flanks
West Coast has had probably the most text book specialist Flankers and midfielder setup I’ve seen of any side in a very, very long time.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I would say midfield because I doubt at Murphy’s age he can maintain last years form and I could see some of the very best midfields really getting hold of us. In saying that there aren’t a lot we shouldn’t be able to beat and it’s actually a fairly mature group we now have in there so I’m not hugely concerned. Especially if one of Fish, Dow or Setterfield step up.
Forward line really only has one player who has proven to be consistent and at his age we shouldn’t expect him to be. I’ve said it before, no player at Eddies age will get half the attention he gets so it would be truly remarkable for him to have a strong season. The big positive about the forward group is they are all extremely good talents and all now in the age bracket where they should be showing that and become dominant players of the league, IF they are good enough. This is a mature group, time to perform.
Backline is brilliant and as long as we aren’t getting smashed up the ground we should be fine.
 
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We clearly had weaknesses in certain areas last year, which improved in the 2nd half of the year.

Adding better ball users/speed, via the trade (as well as maturity) and draft periods, especially Martin, Newnes, who will have more rebounding/inside 50's than goals. As such, the delivery around the park will improve dramatically, especially with Teague's more attacking gameplan

The tale of 2 halves (till round 11 and after)

Our centre clearance numbers were better in the first half of the year, despite playing kids, yet our inside 50 count was poor, ranking dead last. This suggests that the smaller bodies struggled in the next phases of play. With a more attacking gameplan, stronger bodies in the phases after the centre bounce, our inside 50 changed dramatically to being able to compete with most teams. Our scoring also improved, being on average a 19 point improvement, from -23, to -4

Inside 50's
Round 1-11
462 590
42.00 53.64
DIFF -11.64

Round 12-23
593 616
53.91 56.00
DIFF -2.09


Rounds 1-11
GM CCL SCL
Blues 11.7 27.3
Opponent 12 28
Team/Opp. Diff. -0.3 -0.7

Rounds 12-23
Total
GM CCL SCL
Blues 11.6 30.2
Opponent 12.6 26
Team/Opp. Diff. -1 4.2

Last year, our midfield was the area that struggled and while it will improve dramatically, it is still developing. The forwardline was starved of opportunities in the 1st half of the year, but as stated above, that changed, hence our improved scoring power

The forwardline is the least of our worries, even with Charlie out. We don't lack quality tall, medium or small options, we just lacked the opportunities
 
There was no forward lin structure in rounds 1-11 ....hard o deliver to nobody there - however, your point re runts running around getting mashed because they couldn't run for 4 quarters is true. So why the difference in second half-?

Well the reverse of first half selections better decision-makers on ball in Murphy and Ed combined with hiding underperformers like Dow and Fisher and repurposing SPS - but most importantly Teague insisting that there were forwards actually playing as forwards and keeping a structure to keep to. In Bolton's world - kicking a score would come in time when the midfield matured over time- in Teague's world- he didn't see a case for wasting talent in Murphy and Ed on HFF or using KPP forwards as extra midfielders..

So we saw better structure, better ball users where they should be and we also saw better forward fifty defensive pressure - because there was actually someone there to do it - and wonder of wonders- scoring improved by +3 goals a game - despite winning less clearances - the structure was better and i think the winning less clearances in center is a statistical furfy anyway - Cripps missing two games accounts for a fair bit of it.

btw - I might be sounding harsh on Dow and Fisher - they had their reasons for nit being up to afl standards - DOw no pre-season and Fisher coming back from a broken leg - but the point stands - if players aren't up to the job physically - don't play them where it will cost everyone else.

This year another pre-season under the belt and some added class in Betts and Martin - fitter Fisher/Dow/Cuningham and McGovern and Harry - a fitter Gibbons and Newnes Docherty and Wiliamson as bonafide new recruits on top of martin and Betts.

Teague has more to work with and build on and I can guarantee you - he won't be playing favourites - pressure is on.
 
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Possibly but the proof is on the scoreboard and premierships. You keep improving the list to dynasty level and keep regenerating. Never assume it is done job.
Complacency is how clubs get nowhere.
I love our list better than anytime in last 25 years and want abundant talent overflowing via premiership cups.I like Teague and think we can continue to improve towards this goal. List management can never get complacent.

I agree. But I dont think we need to be delisting players that havent really had a chance- just to keep the process of renewal going- not after such a major rebuild and upheaval of the list . A period of relative consolidation is in order IMO.
 

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Don't understand people who have posted "easily our forward line". Our midfield is so thin and would be close to the worst in the league.

Yes we have high hopes for a lot of the players coming through, but it is still a midfield that is really short of proven performances, mature bodies and certainly depth. I absolutely love Ed but the fact he is still a starting mid at our club speaks volumes.

Right now, midfield is our worst line for mine.
 
Aug 27, 2014
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I agree. But I dont think we need to be delisting players that havent really had a chance- just to keep the process of renewal going- not after such a major rebuild and upheaval of the list . A period of relative consolidation is in order IMO.
Exactly. Keep what we got and add to it where can see it in off season. Some of known weakness at end of last season may not be weaknesses by end of this season. Up to the few options we got for roles we weak in to make them their own this year. Plenty of opportunity for a quick small forward to emerge.
 
Aug 27, 2014
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Don't understand people who have posted "easily our forward line". Our midfield is so thin and would be close to the worst in the league.

Yes we have high hopes for a lot of the players coming through, but it is still a midfield that is really short of proven performances, mature bodies and certainly depth. I absolutely love Ed but the fact he is still a starting mid at our club speaks volumes.

Right now, midfield is our worst line for mine.
Nobody expects it to be given the young talent we got to work with this year that in fourth, third and second seasons. Easily our forward line has less obvious talent we can identify so it is the obvious relative weakness to address. Young talent we had for such roles no longer on list like Sumner,LeBois and Pickett so we do not have a build up of clear goal kicking small forward options in fourth, third or second seasons at club. It is one of reasons Paplay was such a target.
 
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Yes goal-kickers, whether small or medium sized.

Players Buckley and Sheldon have been brought up here and they were fair in the air as well as on the ground....especially Buckely.
They were both strong enough to beat their opponents and capable goal-kickers.
Marcou and Cattogio may be described more as crumbers, if my memory serves me well.

Someone like Martin has the craft to beat you in the air and on the ground and can kick goals and for now we have Betts, whose 'smarts' are too much for many an opponent, but after that we're lacking, as I don't see mids Dow nor Fisher ticking off too many boxes to become dangerous mid-forwards.
Cuningham may well though have the craft to make good in the forward line though.

What I'd like to see at years end, would be to acquire -
a. Papley/Rozee/Elliott type - They're all different but have qualities that bring about goals, bring others into the action and are good one on one.
b. Walters/Cameron types - A crumber that takes advantage of the spoils in the forward line.

In Summary - The forward line because of injury and lack of goal-kickers, post Betts.

Yes they are an important part of the equation. Not the whole cake, not just the icing but certainly not where you start a rebuild. SOS rightly targeted Papley and Martin this year. Its why the crows went so hard for Eddie, because they had most of the cake in place. We on the other hand were still in the phase of "not knowing what we dont know" Now we have clarity that only coming towards the end of a successful rebuild brings.
 
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