Wheel of Time

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Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, Rafe Judkins says "Hold my beer!".

Why Amazon gave him $80M to destroy Robert Jordan's legacy is beyond me. Judkins could have achieved the same effect much cheaper, by disinterring Jordan's coffin, opening it up, and taking a massive sh*t on Jordan's remains.

This episode is 99% Judkins, who is fast earning a reputation on par with the DBs (who destroyed GRR Martin's legacy). The only things which are remotely close to the books are:
  • Suian & Moiraine being lesbian lovers. The books describe them as being "pillow friends", which was Jordan's way of saying lesbian lovers. Of course, this does raise the question of what Moiraine was doing in the hot tub with Lan, a few episodes back...
  • Suian & Moiraine being co-conspirators in the plot to track down & identify the Dragon Reborn. Of course, the whole "we don't know if the Dragon is male/female, or even split into 3" is utter garbage - as is the whole "we don't know where he/she was born" thing. We know it's a HE, and he was born on the Dragonmount, and we even know the day & hour of his birth.
  • Matt being separated from the knife, and having the darkness sucked out of him. Of course, it didn't happen until Book 3, and it wasn't done by Moiraine - it required a whole circle of Aes Sedai, including Suian.
The whole trial is utter garbage, because Logain wasn't gentled before reaching the Tower (more garbage from 2 weeks ago). Matt went through the Waygate with them, so Judkins has created yet another abortion of a storyline right there.

... and Perrin's eyes don't alternate between gold & brown for some unknown reason. Once they go gold, they stay gold for the rest of the series.
 
Moiraine healing Mat on her own is the most egregious change for me. It completely ruins how powerful the dagger is, how strong Mat had to be to withstand the dagger, and why Padan Fain is going to be so desperate to get it later on. That is one whole storyline completely ruined. Not to mention majorly overstating how powerful at healing non-Yellows are.

The whole thing about the Dragon is just ridiculous now. They could have made it so that Moiraine was lying to everyone else but with Siuan she could have been honest and said it was Rand. There is no way she doesn't know based on the prophecy.

The eye of the world being The Dark Ones prison? Just ******* lol. Not even bloody close. That is one unnecessary change to make. What? Are they going to make the final battle (Rand's part anyway) take place at the eye instead of Shayol Gul? They could claim ignorance of what is there if Moiraine hadn't already been to the eye.

Moiraine opening the way gate? IIRC, they needed Loial for that. I get season 1 is the Moiraine show, but she doesn't have to do everything.

I am loving Zoe Robbins as Nynaeve, though. Showing Suian no respect and saying "now that you have blown smoke up our arse" is so god damn on point for her character.

From what I have seen on Reddit, this is the point in the filming where Barney Harris left the show hence Mat not following through the waygate.

I had high hopes for the series but I am becoming more and more disappointed with each episode.
 
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I haven't seen the last episode yet (I'll wait to watch it with my kids but having read the books I'm not too worried about spoilers) but so far the series has been majorly down playing the prophecies which I don't really mind if it gives them a little more freedom (hence the male/female dragon reborn) and with prophecies being such an overdone theme in Fantasy stories.

I'm definitely feeling this is a series that I will quickly drift away from, its just not well enough done considering the source material (similar to Netflix's Cowboy Bebop), and I'm very forgiving of this being its own story, but hopefully it can finish season 1 strongly enough to give some hope for the series continuing.
 

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Vader said:
Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, Rafe Judkins says "Hold my beer!".

Why Amazon gave him $80M to destroy Robert Jordan's legacy is beyond me. Judkins could have achieved the same effect much cheaper, by disinterring Jordan's coffin, opening it up, and taking a massive sh*t on Jordan's remains.

This episode is 99% Judkins, who is fast earning a reputation on par with the DBs (who destroyed GRR Martin's legacy). The only things which are remotely close to the books are:
  • Suian & Moiraine being lesbian lovers. The books describe them as being "pillow friends", which was Jordan's way of saying lesbian lovers. Of course, this does raise the question of what Moiraine was doing in the hot tub with Lan, a few episodes back...
  • Suian & Moiraine being co-conspirators in the plot to track down & identify the Dragon Reborn. Of course, the whole "we don't know if the Dragon is male/female, or even split into 3" is utter garbage - as is the whole "we don't know where he/she was born" thing. We know it's a HE, and he was born on the Dragonmount, and we even know the day & hour of his birth.
  • Matt being separated from the knife, and having the darkness sucked out of him. Of course, it didn't happen until Book 3, and it wasn't done by Moiraine - it required a whole circle of Aes Sedai, including Suian.
The whole trial is utter garbage, because Logain wasn't gentled before reaching the Tower (more garbage from 2 weeks ago). Matt went through the Waygate with them, so Judkins has created yet another abortion of a storyline right there.

... and Perrin's eyes don't alternate between gold & brown for some unknown reason. Once they go gold, they stay gold for the rest of the series.
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Seriously, if you are looking for an exact literal adaption of the books then surely by now you've worked out that this isn't even attempting to do that, so therefore you probably need to either just enjoy the show for what it is or give the whole thing a miss.
 
I'm enjoying it. The only thing I'm not a fan of is the idea that the Dragon Reborn could be female that they keep trying to present. For me, it completely diminishes the strength of the Aes Sedai as an organisation and their purpose.

The whole point of the Aes Sedai (who were originally both male and female) was to serve as guardians against another breaking of the world that occurred when Lews Therrin and the other male Aes Sedai went mad after the Dark One tainted saidin...which happened after Mierin (Lanfear) discovered a power that both men and women could hold (which was the Dark One's True Power). It's meant to conjure up a scene reminiscent of Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge, which she did because she wanted power...which is exactly what Lews Therrin said Mierin loved.

When you come from the idea that the Dragon Reborn could be female, it diminishes the whole story of how the desire for equality and equity in power was the true reason why the world was broken. That in a perfect world, saidin and saidar are meant to be complement of each other - men were stronger in power but found it difficult to control (as referenced by Rand explaining to Elayne that he has to wrestle with saidin every time he channels it), women were weaker in power but were better at control (described in the concept of surrendering to saidar). The positive of one cancelled out the negative of the other...which was why they always had to work together to achieve the best results.

Aes Sedai like Moiraine accepted this, that men were always going to be stronger in power, which is why it was important for her to find the Dragon Reborn first (and not some idiot Red Ajah - we see how stupid they are about the Dragon Reborn in their treatment of Rand up to Dumai's Wells). So when she says ridiculous s**t like 'it could be split up between all five of them', it makes me cringe. What danger would a female Dragon Reborn, channeling untainted saidar, bring to the world?
 
Can't quite put my finger on it, but a bit disappointed by the show. Probably a bit spoiled by Game of Thrones but this show 'feels' a lot more shlocky and like a 'Fantasy' show. Is alright and will probably pick up once it gets through the eye of the world stuff.
 
Not sure why people are worked up about the male/female thing as to who the Dragon Reborn might be. It's pretty clear from the show that it has to be a man based on the taint's presence in men. Some might not pick up on that straight away, but it is what it is.

They were never going to do it like in the books when you know pretty much straight away. Imagine that the final episode will end on a cliffhanger/reveal that Rand is the Dragon reborn and we'll all move on.
 
Richard Pryor said:
Can't quite put my finger on it, but a bit disappointed by the show. Probably a bit spoiled by Game of Thrones but this show 'feels' a lot more shlocky and like a 'Fantasy' show. Is alright and will probably pick up once it gets through the eye of the world stuff.
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I haven't done so, but i imagine if one were to rewatch the first season of GOT you might get the same feeling.
 
Bostonian said:
Egwene the Dragon Reborn would be the height of hilarity.
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Agreed but Rafe has already stated multie times it is still Rand.

I have no problem with them making Eggy Ta'veren if they want to go that way since, IMO, she is in the books.
 
Felt Ep 6 was better than Ep 5 but there was very clunky sections, especially the end, for obvious reasons.

I'm expecting an exciting conclusion to series 1 with what's left to do in 2 episodes.
 
Happy Mastenator said:
I haven't done so, but i imagine if one were to rewatch the first season of GOT you might get the same feeling.
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First season of got definitely had similar production values, but the dialogue and acting had a very different vibe more like a big budget historical drama. Major factor is probably the fact GoT the book was a slow burn to getting to the high fantasy shenanigans which always bogs things down in exposition.
 
Happy Mastenator said:
I haven't done so, but i imagine if one were to rewatch the first season of GOT you might get the same feeling.
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First season of GOT was very faithful to the books. It slowly started diverging as it went on and went completely off the rails when it passed the books. This has diverged wildly from the books from the start.

Obviously they aren't going to show the hundreds of Aes Sedai as talking characters, but if you were watching just the show you'd think there's a few dozen Aes Sedai in the world and without good reason they all have to remain in the Tower or at least regularly check in. Have a bunch more extras of different Ajah's in the background as they wander the Tower. Not hard and not going to kill their budget.

I wasn't a fan of the Moraine / Siuan hookup. Sure make it clear they were an item, but this will mean they are almost certain to ditch the Moraine / Thom and Siuan / Bryne relationships. They'd cop woke hell if the two of them 'found true love' there, with accusations of 'You're making non-hetero less meaningful, burn in hell!'. Even the small part of Siuan not being the 'one on top' went against their book characters. She'd have been 'Moraine get that gown off before I skin you like a fish'.

Obviously the same 'run it by HR to kill anything anyone can take offense at' has it juxtaposed with Liandrin having a secret male lover in the city for Moraine to threaten. FFS, yes they are apparently rolling Liandrin and Elaida into one, but Elaida wasn't straight either. The Reds as largely anti-men in general (until Pevara later) is another part of the world thrown by the wayside.

The Oath Rod part was poor. Again a big part of the story is how central they are to the Aes Sedai and the outrage of Elaida wanting extra oaths. Then they just use it for a punishment.

For someone calling themselves a fan of the books the showrunner is chucking things out and changing left and right, many when there'd be no financial cost to do so, just it seems for the sake of putting his own stamp on it.
 

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Andre said:
First season of GOT was very faithful to the books. It slowly started diverging as it went on and went completely off the rails when it passed the books. This has diverged wildly from the books from the start.

Obviously they aren't going to show the hundreds of Aes Sedai as talking characters, but if you were watching just the show you'd think there's a few dozen Aes Sedai in the world and without good reason they all have to remain in the Tower or at least regularly check in. Have a bunch more extras of different Ajah's in the background as they wander the Tower. Not hard and not going to kill their budget.

I wasn't a fan of the Moraine / Siuan hookup. Sure make it clear they were an item, but this will mean they are almost certain to ditch the Moraine / Thom and Siuan / Bryne relationships. They'd cop woke hell if the two of them 'found true love' there, with accusations of 'You're making non-hetero less meaningful, burn in hell!'. Even the small part of Siuan not being the 'one on top' went against their book characters. She'd have been 'Moraine get that gown off before I skin you like a fish'.

Obviously the same 'run it by HR to kill anything anyone can take offense at' has it juxtaposed with Liandrin having a secret male lover in the city for Moraine to threaten. FFS, yes they are apparently rolling Liandrin and Elaida into one, but Elaida wasn't straight either. The Reds as largely anti-men in general (until Pevara later) is another part of the world thrown by the wayside.

The Oath Rod part was poor. Again a big part of the story is how central they are to the Aes Sedai and the outrage of Elaida wanting extra oaths. Then they just use it for a punishment.

For someone calling themselves a fan of the books the showrunner is chucking things out and changing left and right, many when there'd be no financial cost to do so, just it seems for the sake of putting his own stamp on it.
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According to New Spring, Siuan and Moiraine being lovers was a real thing - I wasn't a fan of it either but I never read New Spring so I'll defer to what others have said about it. I was always of the opinion that Moiraine and Thom's relationship was one built from shared adversity during his rescue of her from the Finn - kind of like how Keanu Reeves says to Sandra Bullock in Speed 'I've read that relationships based on intense experiences never work.' Same thing with Siuan and Byrne - Siuan only fell in love with Byrne because he saw her as valuable after she lost her ability to channel. As for Siuan not being the 'top' - it's quite a well known fact that people in positions of power tend to want to let someone else be in the driver's seat in a sexual relationship because it lets them switch roles.

I don't think Liandrin and Elaida are being rolled into one - Elaida is currently in Andor with Morgase, remember? People are speculating that Natasha O'Keefe is playing Elaida...and Elaida was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, whereas Liandrin was Black Ajah.

The Oath Rod is used in the books to ferret out those of the Black Ajah - also, Egwene asks for those of the rebel White Tower to restate their oaths to ferret out the Black Ajah among them. The oath rod is a binding contract that can't be broken - hence why Moiraine changes the words to say that she won't return unless Siuan Sanche bids her to return to the White Tower, instead of 'the Amyrlin Seat' - who could be anyone.
 
The reasons we're suspecting that Liandrin/Elaida have been merged are:
  • They've completely written out the trip to Andor, hence there's nothing to suggest that Elaida even exists in Rafe's world
  • Liandrin's animosity towards Moiraine perfectly mirrors Elaida's in the books
  • Liandrin is a far more prominent character in Rafe's world than Jordan's, suggesting that her role has been massively increased - with a spell on the Amyrlin Seat appearing likely.
 
Janus said:
According to New Spring, Siuan and Moiraine being lovers was a real thing - I wasn't a fan of it either but I never read New Spring so I'll defer to what others have said about it. I was always of the opinion that Moiraine and Thom's relationship was one built from shared adversity during his rescue of her from the Finn - kind of like how Keanu Reeves says to Sandra Bullock in Speed 'I've read that relationships based on intense experiences never work.' Same thing with Siuan and Byrne - Siuan only fell in love with Byrne because he saw her as valuable after she lost her ability to channel. As for Siuan not being the 'top' - it's quite a well known fact that people in positions of power tend to want to let someone else be in the driver's seat in a sexual relationship because it lets them switch roles.

I don't think Liandrin and Elaida are being rolled into one - Elaida is currently in Andor with Morgase, remember? People are speculating that Natasha O'Keefe is playing Elaida...and Elaida was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, whereas Liandrin was Black Ajah.

The Oath Rod is used in the books to ferret out those of the Black Ajah - also, Egwene asks for those of the rebel White Tower to restate their oaths to ferret out the Black Ajah among them. The oath rod is a binding contract that can't be broken - hence why Moiraine changes the words to say that she won't return unless Siuan Sanche bids her to return to the White Tower, instead of 'the Amyrlin Seat' - who could be anyone.
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I've read New Spring. They weren't explicit lovers then, just implied as well. Moraine and Thom's relationship started long before him rescuing her. From way back in The Great Hunt Thom is starting to think of her as more than an Aes Sedai. Moraine similar by The Shadow Rising 'I wager I know the face of my husband better than you' (paraphrased) to the 3 girls.

I hope Elaida is cast, but Liandrin so far has been played up as an important powerful Aes Sedai, when she was young, not as strong as Moraine, Siuan or Elaida and wasn't a prominent Red in the books.
 
I'll add as another complaint (man Rafe, give me something please) is the Ways. Firstly if you have to piss off Caemlyn, then use the Waygate at Tar Valon. Plus WTF with it Power activated? Then sending the horses away and no Mat. I'm seeing Sandersons POV, that they are trying to make everything grim and gritty, but Wheel of Time isn't GOT. Without some lighter moments it becomes wearing. Then the Eye of the World as his prison. Urgggh. Look if they wanted it as a single series sure, but no Shayol Ghul is yet another major change. I guess they'll skip the Green Man. s**t, hold on, have they even mentioned the Forsaken yet?
 
Andre said:
Then sending the horses away and no Mat.
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There is no Mat because that is the point where Barney Harris left. They had write him off somehow and they couldn't do that if he went into the ways with them.
 
Well that was a real mix of Good, Bad & Ugly - but overall it's my favourite episode of the series so far.

I loved the pre-credits sequence, showing Rand's birth story. So much to like about this scene, not the least of which is showing exactly why the Aiel are such feared warriors. This was the absolute highlight of the series for me, so far.

Then we veered into the dark depths of Rafe's world, with nothing in The Ways bearing any resemblance at all to Jordan's world. In Jordan's world machin shin does a hell of a lot more than whisper words of doubt.

I'm beginning to understand why Loial left the Stedding. As a deformed pygmy, with red hair and no pointy ears, he must have been severely persecuted by the other Ogier. 90 years of persecution would be enough to drive anyone out of home.

The episode hits its nadir with the confected melodrama of the in-fighting between the Two Rivers 4. I get that it was supposed to be the result of doubts planted by machin shin, but given that said effects of machin shin are pure Rafeisms, it's nothing but an ugly waste of time.

Similarly the Rafe's world confected melodrama about anyone who's not the Dragon dying if they visit the Eye of the World is unnecessary bullshit, falling squarely in the Ugly category.

I liked the development of the Lan/Nynaeve relationship, and the revelation of his true identity. In Jordan's world they didn't sleep together until they were married on the ship, but I like the way Rafe handled it.

The postponed introduction of Min was handled nicely. In Jordan's world we meet her in Baerlon. In Rafe's world, we wait until Fal Dara. That's one change I don't mind - at least we got to meet her in the first season, unlike Elayne who has gone MIA as a result of Caemlyn being cut from the script. I'm not sure why Min told Moiraine about one Rand viewing, before telling Rand a whole other set of visions. That discrepancy was rather jarring.

The Blight is not quite what I imagined, but I definitely like what Rafe's done with it. Thumbs up for this one.
 
BEaston said:
Epic episode. Goes a long to explaining a lot of the changes and omissions from previous episodes. Thought the DR reveal was really well done.
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Yep, best episode by a country mile. A lot more Jordan's world, a lot less Rafe's world. Marvelous what a difference that makes.
 
Vader said:
Interesting seeing the Illian bees on Tham's armour. I didn't realise he was fighting for Illian. I would have thought he fought for Andor. Not a criticism, just an interesting observation.
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Yep, fought for Illian against Tear and against the Whitecloaks in the Whitecloak war. Second Captain of the Companions, we get the Illianer Companions leader later remembering when Tam Al'Thor was Second Captain over him back then.
 
Much better episode with the only thing I didn't like was the manufactured drama between the kids.

I so can't wait for the Aiel properly now. I have always loved the Maidens in the books and getting a taste of what we can expect has left me hanging for more.

I still hold out hope that they get to the Eye and realise they are mistaken about the Dark One's prison. It is an unnecessary and ridiculous change unless it is a case of Moirane leading them all on.

Even though it was extremely brief, I loved that there were a couple of shots of Tam in the fever speaking to Rand between the farm and Edmond's Field after the Trolloc attack.

The Padan Fain glimpses are very well done.
 
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