Society/Culture When is racism really racism?

Egg Boy

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When discussing "racism" people need to distinguish between racism and discrimination.

Racism - internal ideas/attitudes.
Discrimination - manifestation of those ideas in the real world.

If someone hates a certain race or group but doesn't manifest that hatred in the real world then should we care?

You can argue that internal attitudes may lead to discrimination ... but this implies that human actions aren't filtered by societal pressures etc.

Example: I might laugh at an Aboriginal joke (racism lite) BUT I would never discriminate in the real world against an Aboriginal.

Conclusion: Racism is really racism when it manifests in real world discrimination.
 
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Conclusion: Racism is really racism when it manifests in real world discrimination.

It's amazing that this simple truth is lost on many people.
 

Ben The Donkey

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Don't point out that Israel is an ethnostate. That's racist!

I mean, it's not like Israel denies the vote to 2.5 million Palestinians or anything. Right? To suggest as much would be racist.

It's not racist at all. In fact, it's not even true. Israel is a state with a religious majority comprised of many different ethnicities. If you look at the Israeli demographic, the terms "white" (or even Caucasian) or "ethnostate" are virtually inapplicable, unless you try very hard to make them so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Basically, that Israel might appear to be mostly Caucasian is more due to the geological origin of the religions adherents than their race. Judaism is a religion - not a race.

The marginalization of Palestinians in Israel is not a racist issue - it's a religious and political one.
 
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Basically, that Israel might appear to be mostly Caucasian is more due to the geological origin of the religions adherents than their race. Judaism is a religion - not a race.
It's not that straightforward. Probably more accurate to say Jews are an ethnoreligious group for whom ethnicity, nationhood and religion are all connected.

And in Israel, folks outside that group have been subjugated.

The marginalization of Palestinians in Israel is not a racist issue - it's a religious and political one.
Or all of the above. Ethnicity is a factor in the marginalisation.
 
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Ben The Donkey

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So you're trying to tell us that Israel just hates Arabs - not Muslims ideologically opposed to both the state itself, and the main religion of that state.
 
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So you're trying to tell us that Israel just hates Arabs - not Muslims ideologically opposed to both the state itself, and the main religion of that state.
Why do you need to paraphrase my post? I'm happy with my argument the way I made it, thanks.

The divisions are ethnic as well as religious and political. They're interwoven and exacerbate each other.

If it's purely about religion (as though disenfranchising people on that basis is somehow better), then surely Palestinian Christians living in the West Bank should be allowed to vote? They're effectively citizens of Israel, so why can't they vote?

Either way, we're talking about systemic discrimination against an ethnic/religious minority. In what other developed country would it be acceptable to deny people the vote on that basis?
 
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Ben The Donkey

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Why do you need to paraphrase my post? I'm happy with my argument the way I made it, thanks.

The divisions are ethnic as well as religious and political. They're interwoven and exacerbate each other.

If it's purely about religion (as though disenfranchising people on that basis is somehow better), then surely Palestinian Christians living in the West Bank should be allowed to vote? They're effectively citizens of Israel, so why can't they vote?

Either way, we're talking about systemic discrimination against an ethnic/religious minority. In what other developed country would it be acceptable to deny people the vote on that basis?
I've been sitting on this for a little while.
I'm not really in a position to be able to address it without writing a ten-page essay, so I'll content myself with a question.
Given the geographical, political and ideological position of Israel, and ignoring how it was created to begin with (I'm aware that's a big one, but it is what is is in this instance), and it's unique religious and ideological stance: What chance do you give it, as an independent state, if it were to open itself to democratic as well as actual and threatened military intervention?
 

sdfc

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I've been sitting on this for a little while.
I'm not really in a position to be able to address it without writing a ten-page essay, so I'll content myself with a question.
Given the geographical, political and ideological position of Israel, and ignoring how it was created to begin with (I'm aware that's a big one, but it is what is is in this instance), and it's unique religious and ideological stance: What chance do you give it, as an independent state, if it were to open itself to democratic as well as actual and threatened military intervention?
Maybe if Israel moved toward facilitating an independent Palestinian state there would be a chance of peace.
 
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I've been sitting on this for a little while.
I'm not really in a position to be able to address it without writing a ten-page essay, so I'll content myself with a question.
Given the geographical, political and ideological position of Israel, and ignoring how it was created to begin with (I'm aware that's a big one, but it is what is is in this instance), and it's unique religious and ideological stance: What chance do you give it, as an independent state, if it were to open itself to democratic as well as actual and threatened military intervention?
I think you've summarised it pretty accurately but that summary invites certain questions.

In your own words, what chance would Israel have if it were truly democratic? What word would you use to describe such a state?

Are you saying that Israel needs systemic racism to exist/function? Should we defend ethno-states for their own sake?

People asked the same question about apartheid South Africa. If it was democratic, what would happen? We know what happened. Was that a bad outcome?

But nah. Israel = Amazing. Gotta support it 100 per cent.

Do you think international law should be observed?
 
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Today, out of boredom, I was reading an article from the Daily Mississippian which appears to have drawn some controversy.

I'll shorten the article for those who can't be bothered reading it: Old Miss Greek (I think a university group?) cancelled an event due to potential racism. Apparently, there had been a breakfast prior to a forum on racism. A student threw a banana peel in the tree, which was promptly spotted by a traditionally African-American sorority. This was perceived to be racist, as bananas are obviously associated with apes. Following this, a white male student admitted pretty quickly that it was him, and he threw it into the tree as he couldn't find a bin nearby.

His apology reads as: “I want to sincerely apologize for the events that took place this past weekend,” Swanson said in a statement to The DM on Tuesday night. “Although unintentional, there is no excuse for the pain that was caused to members of our community.

I would think that should be enough to quell the concerns as it sounds like he was pretty transparent. However, one of the complainants countered with the following:
McNeil said that if the banana peel incident was an accident, people need to consider the effects of their actions versus their intent.

“You see how much fear and how much anger you insight in black people just from an unintentional image,” she said.


To me, this seems pretty excessive. I agree that racism is a huge issue in society, and one that we should be trying to prevent. But is this being too precious? I tend to agree that we should also avoid something that offends people eg. the Adam Goodes booing. Another similar issue is the use of black face in Australia, while we might not have the same black face history, it is obviously insulting to certain groups.

But sometimes perceived racism is not racist at all. For example, the word niggardly has drawn controversy in the United States for obvious negative connotations. However, the word itself has nothing to do with race, it simply means stingy, and has done so since the middle ages.

I sometimes worry that certain sections of society are going too far to find offence. I think that we collectively find it hard to draw a line where bigotry is concerned. I guess racism is ultimately subjective. But when people lose jobs, lose opportunities and face public ridicule over something where there was no racial undertones, I think we have gone too far.

Now, to avoid debate on what I'm scared this thread is going to devolve into, let's all assume that the boy threw the banana into the tree because he had nowhere else to put it. Given this, do you think he should be publicly sorry for offence he caused? Or do you think he's ethically correct in assuming no blame?


something isn’t racist because it offends someone of a different race. It’s racist because it discriminates against someone of a different race. That’s what racism is. Discrimination based on race. Wokeism is incredibly racist as it advocates discrimination based on race.

you seem to be wanting to replace wokeism with partial wokeism. It’s still wokeism. It’s still racist.

the classical liberals are the ones who had it right. The only way to get rid of racism is to try and create a society where race is viewed no differently to hair colour. One where race is irrelevant. One where race is not a key to your identity. They hadn’t succeeded when wokeism became a thing but they were on the right path. out and out racists were put back in their corner. Nazism was basically gone except in the darkest fringes of society. Now wokeism has made race important to identity again straight out racism has become ok again in conservative parts of society.

we were so close. only a generation or so from eliminating racism. Now we are so far away. Wokeism has ensured racism will still be a major issue for the next century or more.
 
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something isn’t racist because it offends someone of a different race. It’s racist because it discriminates against someone of a different race. That’s what racism is. Discrimination based on race. Wokeism is incredibly racist as it advocates discrimination based on race.

you seem to be wanting to replace wokeism with partial wokeism. It’s still wokeism. It’s still racist.

the classical liberals are the ones who had it right. The only way to get rid of racism is to try and create a society where race is viewed no differently to hair colour. One where race is irrelevant. One where race is not a key to your identity. They hadn’t succeeded when wokeism became a thing but they were on the right path. out and out racists were put back in their corner. Nazism was basically gone except in the darkest fringes of society. Now wokeism has made race important to identity again straight out racism has become ok again in conservative parts of society.

we were so close. only a generation or so from eliminating racism. Now we are so far away. Wokeism has ensured racism will still be a major issue for the next century or more.
But what if there are specific kinds of disadvantage that derive from race? Is the answer simply to ignore that because "we don't see race anymore"?

In Australia, for example, indigenous folks have a life expectancy nearly 10 years lower than the non-indigenous population. This is a real disadvantage. I don't think it's a solution to simply insist that race is no longer a factor in any of it when it's clearly a predictor of certain health/education outcomes.

It's empirically different to hair colour in that respect.
 
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But what if there are specific kinds of disadvantage that derive from race? Is the answer simply to ignore that because "we don't see race anymore"?

In Australia, for example, indigenous folks have a life expectancy nearly 10 years lower than the non-indigenous population. This is a real disadvantage. I don't think it's a solution to simply insist that race is no longer a factor in any of it when it's clearly a predictor of certain health/education outcomes.

It's empirically different to hair colour in that respect.


I think there are two major causes of low indiginous wealth. One is race based discrimination in education and employment and I think this is mostly gone now except in unconscious bias of employers and educators. It was no doubt a major factor in the past. Unconscious bias will too be eliminated as we move to a society where race doesn’t matter.


The second disadvantage (and probably biggest driver today) is the wealth of your parents and the resources of your local communities. Most ingidinous people suffer the raw end of the stick in both these aspects. we don’t have equal opportunity yet despite government efforts. Your access to employment and education on a level footing with your peers is still greatly influenced by your families wealth and the local community you live in due to a variety of reasons impacting access to time, access to physical resources, opportunities for status pursuit, and propensity for depression. I’ve discussed this in much more detail in another thread so I won’t go into it here. There are various solutions to fix this and none of them are race based. These problems don’t just impact one race.
 
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I think there are two major causes of low indiginous wealth. One is race based discrimination in education and employment and I think this is mostly gone now except in unconscious bias of employers and educators. It was no doubt a major factor in the past. Unconscious bias will too be eliminated as we move to a society where race doesn’t matter.


The second disadvantage (and probably biggest driver today) is the wealth of your parents and the resources of your local communities. Most ingidinous people suffer the raw end of the stick in both these aspects. we don’t have equal opportunity yet despite government efforts. Your access to employment and education on a level footing with your peers is still greatly influenced by your families wealth and the local community you live in due to a variety of reasons impacting access to time, access to physical resources, opportunities for status pursuit, and propensity for depression. I’ve discussed this in much more detail in another thread so I won’t go into it here. There are various solutions to fix this and none of them are race based. These problems don’t just impact one race.
So how should these problems be addressed if we refuse to acknowledge race as a factor?
 

Blue1980

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So how should these problems be addressed if we refuse to acknowledge race as a factor?

One thing for sure complaining about digital blackface isn’t the answer


That does read like a parody
 
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