Society/Culture When is racism really racism?

[Sweet Jesus]

You're the one who first used the term "particular problem" then who used the term "particularly" racist.

Answer your own strawman.

That's not a straw man.

I've used the terms interchangeably, which is entirely reasonable.

Does Australia have a particular problem with racism? Is Australia particularly racist?

It's the same question. There's no contradiction.

Surely you don't think that after I've laid waste to all your flawed arguments and unfeasible ideological commitments, you're going to quickstep me with a word game?

Please.

ferball you picked a fight by calling me a fascist, which I regard as a disgusting and dishonest slur. My response is to carefully and articulately decimate your arguments where everyone can see.

If you come for the king, you better not miss.

 

[ferball]

That's not a straw man.

I've used the terms interchangeably, which is entirely reasonable.

Does Australia have a particular problem with racism? Is Australia particularly racist?

It's the same question. There's no contradiction.

Surely you don't think that after I've laid waste to all your flawed arguments and unfeasible ideological commitments, you're going to quickstep me with a word game?

Please.

ferball if you come for the king, you better not miss.

You've made up a whole lot of unhinged s**t in order to argue with it. You are the king of bullshit.

I identified the particular problem. Its not a matter of comparison. Its the same problem that drove black Americans across the country to come out in mass and march in protest. The same one that sees Western Australia arresting indigenous kids and locking them up for stealing food. You're just typing out your arse. Why are you trying to pretend this doesn't exist by minimising it into nothing and talking about who wants what for neighbours? What are you trying to hide?

Also...

Are you seriously saying the west hasn't changed almost completely since ww2? That Western society has not considerably remade itself since ww2?

You're also the king of counter factual drivel by the looks of things.

 

[ferball]

That's not a straw man.

I've used the terms interchangeably, which is entirely reasonable.

Does Australia have a particular problem with racism? Is Australia particularly racist?

It's the same question. There's no contradiction.

Surely you don't think that after I've laid waste to all your flawed arguments and unfeasible ideological commitments, you're going to quickstep me with a word game?

Please.

ferball you picked a fight by calling me a fascist, which I regard as a disgusting and dishonest slur. My response is to carefully and articulately decimate your arguments where everyone can see.

If you come for the king, you better not miss.

You are a fascist.

Everyone knows.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You've made up a whole lot of unhinged sh*t in order to argue with it. You are the king of bullshit.

Why would you advertise upfront that you don't have an argument?

Anyone reading your response has read what I posted. They know that I'm cogent and coherent and focused on certain points.

You can't just bluff, champ. That's not going to work.

I identified the particular problem. Its not a matter of comparison. Its the same problem that drove black Americans across the country to come out in mass and march in protest. The same one that sees Western Australia arresting indigenous kids and locking them up for stealing food. You're just typing out your arse. Why are you trying to pretend this doesn't exist by minimising it into nothing and talking about who wants what for neighbours? What are you trying to hide?

This doesn't answer any questions or make any point.

I'm not minimising anything. I fully accept all those statements about the history of racism in the West and the ongoing reality of unjust racist outcomes. I'm with you 100 per cent on all of that.

But you're just cycling back to the talking point that racism exists and it's bad. We all agree on that point. It doesn't make the case that Australia or any other Western country is particularly racist. You never address that. Your ideological commitments prevent you from addressing a very obvious question.

Our exchange is basically your ideological commitments rubbing up against rational arguments, and your commitments are coming up short every time. You should reconsider those commitments if they prevent you from thinking clearly.

You might be well-intentioned but do you have an argument that gets you out of that box?

Also...

Are you seriously saying the west hasn't changed almost completely since ww2? That Western society has not considerably remade itself since ww2?

You're also the king of counter factual drivel by the looks of things.

I'm asking you to make your case. You don't have any answers.

Your woke racial essentialism is bullshit and it's backward AF.

And by the time I'm done with your arguments, there will be nothing left. You'll be sitting there twitching with nothing left to say.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You are a fascist.

Everyone knows.

This is nonsense. It's a desperate hail mary from someone who can't hold their own reasonably.

Your arguments have been so thoroughly taken apart that you no longer have the confidence to make them.

Answer my questions: What's the least racist country in the world? What's the standard? Which country should Australia seek to emulate?

You have no answer because your entire argument relies on an impossible standard of zero racism.

Everyone can watch you take an air-swing at this.

"Nah, nah, racism is bad!"

That's all you've got at this stage.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

ferball how do you regard the Pyramids and the Great Wall of China?

Are they remarkable feats of engineering and human ingenuity?

Or are they monuments to slavery, in which case they should obviously be torn down?

You won't be able to answer these questions directly. These are the limits of your ideological commitments. They fall apart.

And I'm going to rub your nose in it until you have nothing left to say.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Everyone, watch this.

I am going to so thoroughly dismantle ferball that he won't even be willing to make his own arguments.

He will be reduced to saying a) "racism exists and it's bad" and b) calling me a fascist.

He won't have anything beyond that. Because his ideological commitments are fundamentally bankrupt and unfeasible.

Guaranteed. Watch it happen.

Go on ferball, answer my questions.

 

[ferball]

Why would you advertise upfront that you don't have an argument?

Anyone reading your response has read what I posted. They know that I'm cogent and coherent and focused on certain points.

You can't just bluff, champ. That's not going to work.

This doesn't answer any questions or make any point.

You're the one who has made up this "particular problem comparison" crap and then demanded I answer it. Why should I? Its meaningless. Its all noise and no signal.

In same way you bumped this thread by equating modern questions about the structural racism in society and somehow destroying the whole of Western culture. You take things to an extreme in the most unhinged way possible.

Probably cos you're a fascist.

I'm not minimising anything. I fully accept all those statements about the history of racism in the West and the ongoing reality of unjust racist outcomes. I'm with you 100 per cent on all of that.

But you're just cycling back to the talking point that racism exists and it's bad. We all agree on that point. It doesn't make the case that Australia or any other Western country is particularly racist. You never address that. Your ideological commitments prevent you from addressing a very obvious question.

Instead of answering your stupid meaningless question i'd rather focus on changing the issues you recognise exist.

You can type away talking s**t about it if you like. All you're doing is not avoiding with the issue.

By hiding behind meaningless questions designed to promote inaction.

Our exchange is basically your ideological commitments rubbing up against rational arguments, and your commitments are coming up short every time. You should reconsider those commitments if they prevent you from thinking clearly.

Rational arguments? Everything you are doing in this thread is irrational. Because you tied your flag to a ridiculous position and you're trying to make it seem relevant.

You might be well-intentioned but do you have an argument that gets you out of that box?

I'm asking you to make your case. You don't have any answers.

Your woke racial essentialism is bullshit and it's backward AF.

And by the time I'm done with your arguments, there will be nothing left. You'll be sitting there twitching with nothing left to say.

If that makes you feel all gooey inside then keep on imaging it.

 

[Werewolf]

Check out this from The Washington Post. It's a few years old but it ranks countries according to the percentage of people who said they wouldn't want to live next door to people of a different race.

ferball which is the least racist country in the world? It's almost like the fundamentally racist West is the most chilled about it.

View attachment 1118562

I'm pretty sure that's the map I posted in this thread a few years ago (#123). Funny about the French!

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You're the one who has made up this "particular problem comparison" crap and then demanded I answer it. Why should I? Its meaningless. Its all noise and no signal.

If you are saying Australia is particularly racist, then that demands a comparison.

Otherwise what are you saying? Racism exists and it's bad?

In same way you bumped this thread by equating modern questions about the structural racism in society and somehow destroying the whole of Western culture. You take things to an extreme in the most unhinged way possible.

You said Western society needs to be remade because it's fundamentally racist.

Instead of answering your stupid meaningless question i'd rather focus on changing the issues you recognise exist.

You can type away talking sh*t about it if you like. All you're doing is not avoiding with the issue.

By hiding behind meaningless questions designed to promote inaction.

You're avoiding the questions because you know your arguments don't stack up.

What's the least racist country in the world?

Rational arguments? Everything you are doing in this thread is irrational. Because you tied your flag to a ridiculous position and you're trying to make it seem relevant.

What position is that?

If you are saying Australia is a particularly racist country, you should be able to tell me the dozens of countries that are less racist. But you can't.

Or do you not think Australia is particularly racist?

 

[ferball]

If you are saying Australia is particularly racist, then that demands a comparison.

Otherwise what are you saying? Racism exists and it's bad?

No this is a false binary you are inventing to conduct some argument you want to conduct to feed your ego. Do a thread search on the term "particular problem". You'll find you intoduced it to this discussion in an attempt to reframe the discussion on terms you could handle.

You said Western society needs to be remade because it's fundamentally racist.

Are you going to cite me saying "Western Society needs to be remade" in this thread? Go on then. This is another strawman you have created to try and get this discussion back on your terms.

You're avoiding the questions because you know your arguments don't stack up.

I'm avoiding questions that have nothing to do with my point. I don't have to answer to you.

What's the least racist country in the world?

Dunno? How are you measuring it?

What position is that?

The position that acknowledging structural racism is akin to saying Western society needs to be fundamentally remade.

If you are saying Australia is a particularly racist country, you should be able to tell me the dozens of countries that are less racist. But you can't.

Or do you not think Australia is particularly racist?

I'm not saying that. You keep typing words in my mouth. I did point out a specific problem with Western Legal systems (particularly English/common law ones) and an obvious disparity in outcome based on race.

Are you saying that doesn't exist? That Western legal Systems particularly in Australia and the US have equitable outcomes based on race?

Cos that seems to be what's driving your interminable, self referential drivel.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

No this is a false binary you are inventing to conduct some argument you want to conduct to feed your ego. Do a thread search on the term "particular problem". You'll find you intoduced it to this discussion in an attempt to reframe the discussion on terms you could handle.

It's not a false binary.

Is Australia a particularly racist country or isn't it?

Make your own argument.

Are you going to cite me saying "Western Society needs to be remade" in this thread? Go on then. This is another strawman you have created to try and get this discussion back on your terms.

I said that if you consider Western society to be fundamentally racist, presumably the only solution is to remake it. And you said "yep".

Are you now saying Western society isn't fundamentally racist and doesn't need to be remade?

I'm avoiding questions that have nothing to do with my point. I don't have to answer to you.

You are avoiding the questions because you have no answers.

Dunno? How are you measuring it?

Do you think Australia is a particularly racist country or don't you?

If not, what are you saying?

Racism exists and it's bad?

The position that acknowledging structural racism is akin to saying Western society needs to be fundamentally remade.

That's not my position.

You, however, have already said that Western society needs to be remade because it's fundamentally racist. See above.

I'm not saying that. You keep typing words in my mouth. I did point out a specific problem with Western Legal systems (particularly English/common law ones) and an obvious disparity in outcome based on race.

Are you saying that doesn't exist? That Western legal Systems particularly in Australia and the US have equitable outcomes based on race?

Cos that seems to be what's driving your interminable, self referential drivel.

So you don't think Australia is a particularly racist country?

 

[ferball]

It's not a false binary.

Is Australia a particularly racist country or isn't it?

Make your own argument.

Australia is a racist country. We villify ethnic groups in the national mainstream media and deny access to immigration or even asylum on the basis of ethnicity. I've already mentioned its legal and justice issues.

I'm not interested in making comparisons to other nations. That sort of racist, proto fascist propaganda simply exists to make light of specific problems caused by Australia's racist nature, including them the ones I listed above.

I said that if you consider Western society to be fundamentally racist, presumably the only solution is to remake it. And you said "yep".

Are you now saying Western society isn't fundamentally racist and doesn't need to be remade?

I think you are misunderstanding me. Its an ongoing process. We don't need to start from scratch, Western Society has been remade over the last 70 years. So there are only some aspects of Western Society that need to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. Specific areas that need to be remade are the aforementioned legal/justice ones, with emphasis on the police force and what it is/how it functions. And (ironically enough) our reliance on theft. Sometimes called neo colonialism or foreign investment.

You are avoiding the questions because you have no answers.

They are stupid questions and not worth answering.

[QUOTE/]Do you think Australia is a particularly racist country or don't you?

If not, what are you saying?

Racism exists and it's bad?

You, however, have already said that Western society needs to be remade because it's fundamentally racist. See above.

So you don't think Australia is a particularly racist country?
[/QUOTE]

I think Australia is a racist country. I don't need to add any particular adjectives to that assessment.

That's not my position.

And yet you said this:

Now, the new creed of Anti-Racism appears to define racism as any system or outcome where there is some racial disparity, whether race is the causal factor in that or not.

With no actual data to back up your racist assertion.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Australia is a racist country.

Compared to what? An idealised version of itself where there is zero racism?

That's a meaningless statement.

Is Australia particularly racist?

Is there a country in the world that you consider isn't racist?

We villify ethnic groups in the national mainstream media and deny access to immigration or even asylum on the basis of ethnicity. I've already mentioned its legal and justice issues.

I'm not interested in making comparisons to other nations.

You're not interested in comparisons because they would expose your arguments as redundant.

If you are going to say "Australia is a racist country" then a comparison to other countries is the next logical step. In the scheme of things, compared to all the countries of the world, how racist is Australia actually?

Or are you simply saying "racism exists and racism is bad"? That's meaningless.

That sort of racist, proto fascist propaganda simply exists to make light of specific problems caused by Australia's racist nature, including them the ones I listed above.

It's got nothing to do with proto fascism. This is a dumb word salad that you fall back on when your arguments fail. It's jarringly obvious.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Its an ongoing process. We don't need to start from scratch, Western Society has been remade over the last 70 years. So there are only some aspects of Western Society that need to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. Specific areas that need to be remade are the aforementioned legal/justice ones, with emphasis on the police force and what it is/how it functions. And (ironically enough) our reliance on theft. Sometimes called neo colonialism or foreign investment.

But if Western civilisation is fundamentally racist then surely all its achievements are expressions of that fundamental racism?

You think that the entire legal system needs to be torn down and remade? Why stop there?

Isn't the Enlightenment fundamentally a product of White Supremacy? How can you defend it?

They are stupid questions and not worth answering.

You have no answers.

You've got a particular set of ideological commitments but you haven't considered their implications. And they don't stand up to scrutiny. That's what's playing out here. That's why you're avoiding the questions.

I think Australia is a racist country. I don't need to add any particular adjectives to that assessment.

Compared to what?

Your argument boils down to "racism exists and it's bad". As predicted. That's all you've got and it's a meaningless statement.

You say Australia is a racist country. What does that mean? According to your terms, is there a country that isn't racist?

With no actual data to back up your racist assertion.

Firstly, how is that a racist assertion?

Secondly, it doesn't deny the presence of some systemic racism. It merely questions the broadening of the definition of racism and the logical implications of that.

Thirdly, what kind of data are you suggesting? It's a statement about certain kinds of emerging orthodoxies around the definition of racism. It's not about data.

So once again, you just fail to get any traction with your arguments.

 

[ferball]

But if Western civilisation is fundamentally racist then surely all its achievements are expressions of that fundamental racism?

Before we go any further...

Why?

 

[FireKrakouer]

 

[JackFlash]

When your name is Liz Cambage?

 

[RobbieGray17]

Can someone list the athletes in this photo doing the rounds of australian olympic athletes. The one Cambage is upset over. Im on my mobile and cant get the photo up.

 

[FRUMPY]

When your name is Liz Cambage?

Complains about racism and then has a go at a 'little white man' because he said she was 300 pounds....media don't blink

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Here's a selection of explanations of CRT. Some of it's bonkers. Moral panic on both sides.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Sam Harris is more sensible...

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Some of these are ridiculous...

Everyday Words And Phrases That Have Racist Connotations

The words and phrases permeate nearly every aspect of our society.

gooddaysacramento.cbslocal.com

 

[Scotland]

Good lord.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Here's my understanding of the ethno-nationalist thing;

Ethnonationalism is the promotion of one ethnic group above all others. It is often an extreme promotion, and aggressive when it meets opposition.

Cultural pride is one step below. You're proud of your ethnic group and practice at least some of its traditions, cooking, music, etc. But you don't do these things at the expense of other cultures. A working multiculture has room for various disparate traditions and outlooks.

Now I'm proud of my Irish roots. But that pride stops at the door of shoving it down other peoples' throats, which is what I would do if I were an ethno-nationalist.

Cultural pride = good. Ethnonationalism = bad. The two are very much interrelated, but only one is an extreme.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Here's my understanding of the ethno-nationalist thing;

Ethnonationalism is the promotion of one ethnic group above all others. It is often an extreme promotion, and aggressive when it meets opposition.

Cultural pride is one step below. You're proud of your ethnic group and practice at least some of its traditions, cooking, music, etc. But you don't do these things at the expense of other cultures. A working multiculture has room for various disparate traditions and outlooks.

Now I'm proud of my Irish roots. But that pride stops at the door of shoving it down other peoples' throats, which is what I would do if I were an ethno-nationalist.

Cultural pride = good. Ethnonationalism = bad. The two are very much interrelated, but only one is an extreme.

No one said "cultural pride" should be discouraged.

Are you going to attempt to reframe another discussion around something no one suggested or disputed?

"It's not about x. It's about y [insert something platitudinous, irrelevant and not in dispute]."