When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

[Davey33]

How do you know these two things are linked at all?

Carlton (at least some of their directors) appeared to have gone cold on Lyon because the Carlton Respects program stands for things that wouldn't exactly mesh well with Lyon's past accusations at Fremantle.

Geelong doesn't run a similar program, and can make their own call regarding Lyon's appropriateness to be associated with their club.

I'm more than happy to pot Carlton, but deciding not to hire Ross Lyon because the accusations relating to his time at Fremantle wouldn't have 'fit' what a club running a program like Carlton Respects stands for, isn't one of them.

I hear you. I wasnt aware that he wasnt hired because of those accusations

 

[owen87]

I hear you. I wasnt aware that he wasnt hired because of those accusations

He withdrew, so we'll never know.

But the scuttlebutt in the media was that some directors were uncomfortable with the accusations and ensuing settlement the occurred in his time at Fremantle, and how it would fit with the Carlton Respects program.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

He withdrew, so we'll never know.

But the scuttlebutt in the media was that some directors were uncomfortable with the accusations and ensuing settlement the occurred in his time at Fremantle, and how it would fit with the Carlton Respects program.

Yeah that is pretty much how I remember how it happened, although by the same token, he was always aware he was not our 1 choice at the time with the club doing everything possible to try get Clarkson.
Actually very happy with the Voss appointment, comes with practically no baggage and done a very good stint as an assistant at Port.
Think he is going to be an outstanding coach for us.

 

[Davey33]

I don't give a stuff if you give a stuff mate.

Perhaps you (we) should.
After all say what you want about him but Ross Lyon is a previous senior coach with an established record of success at two separate clubs.
He has an aura of a well thought through man who has the experience to head a coaching department.
Michael Voss, seems a nice guy and was a champion player but has no such record of success as a coach at ANY level YET.
I truly hope that will change in 2022.

 

[Davey33]

He withdrew, so we'll never know.

But the scuttlebutt in the media was that some directors were uncomfortable with the accusations and ensuing settlement the occurred in his time at Fremantle, and how it would fit with the Carlton Respects program.

Scuttlebut is right.
That would be a terrible reason not to hire him.

 

[owen87]

Yeah that is pretty much how I remember how it happened, although by the same token, he was always aware he was not our 1 choice at the time with the club doing everything possible to try get Clarkson.
Actually very happy with the Voss appointment, comes with practically no baggage and done a very good stint as an assistant at Port.
Think he is going to be an outstanding coach for us.

Voss is one that I felt deserved a second chance. He went away from Brisbane and continued coaching in various roles, expanding his knowledge and experience. It shows that at least he's willing to do the hard work and try to be better.

Whether he works out or not, we'll see.

 

[Davey33]

Voss is one that I felt deserved a second chance. He went away from Brisbane and continued coaching in various roles, expanding his knowledge and experience. It shows that at least he's willing to do the hard work and try to be better.

Whether he works out or not, we'll see.

Perhaps Essendon shouldve taken him instead of Rutten

 

[Metalcrusher]

Perhaps you (we) should.
After all say what you want about him but Ross Lyon is a previous senior coach with an established record of success at two separate clubs.
He has an aura of a well thought through man who has the experience to head a coaching department.
Michael Voss, seems a nice guy and was a champion player but has no such record of success as a coach at ANY level YET.
I truly hope that will change in 2022.

What exactly has Ross Lyon achieved thus far? Apart from coaching an AFL side ... so has Voss btw ...

 

[owen87]

Scuttlebut is right.
That would be a terrible reason not to hire him.

What would be a terrible reason?

Carlton Respects exists, it's real, and thus what the Carlton Football Club represents needs to be aligned with that program.

Lyon making a settlement in his time at Fremantle also exists. The alleged accusations are fairly freely available on the internet as well.

Carlton were well within their rights to want to know more, as the Head Coach is probably the most visible face of the club, and needs to represent what the club stands for.

Football Clubs aren't just a win:loss result, they're also a community organisation.

 

[Robertio]

Perhaps you (we) should.
After all say what you want about him but Ross Lyon is a previous senior coach with an established record of success at two separate clubs.
He has an aura of a well thought through man who has the experience to head a coaching department.
Michael Voss, seems a nice guy and was a champion player but has no such record of success as a coach at ANY level YET.
I truly hope that will change in 2022.

I'm hoping Voss has the right assistant coaches around him to be successful, if they had have got Lyon i would've been happy as well.

 

[Davey33]

What exactly has Ross Lyon achieved thus far? Apart from coaching an AFL side ... so has Voss btw ...

Stupid to have to even respond to these silly statements which have been dealt with 100 times before.
We know he never won a premiership but seriously credit where credit is due, he came awfully close at two clubs on three occasions.

How can Voss even come close to that??? Seriously no comparison at least based on PAST HISTORY.
If that changes in the coming years I will bethe first to celebrate...

 

[Davey33]

What would be a terrible reason?

Carlton Respects exists, it's real, and thus what the Carlton Football Club represents needs to be aligned with that program.

Lyon making a settlement in his time at Fremantle also exists. The alleged accusations are fairly freely available on the internet as well.

Carlton were well within their rights to want to know more, as the Head Coach is probably the most visible face of the club, and needs to represent what the club stands for.

Football Clubs aren't just a win:loss result, they're also a community organisation.

I hear. Just strange that wouldnt be an issue by other clubs

 

[Metalcrusher]

Stupid to have to even respond to these silly statements which have been dealt with 100 times before.
We know he never won a premiership but seriously credit where credit is due, he came awfully close at two clubs on three occasions.

How can Voss even come close to that??? Seriously no comparison at least based on PAST HISTORY.
If that changes in the coming years I will bethe first to celebrate...

Better ...

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Perhaps Essendon shouldve taken him instead of Rutten

I hate Essendon as much as any Bluebagger, but Rutten is doing a pretty solid job with them so far.

 

[Opine]

I hate Essendon as much as any Bluebagger, but Rutten is doing a pretty solid job with them so far.

It’s obvious the players like him.

 

[owen87]

I hear. Just strange that wouldnt be an issue by other clubs

Not every club runs a program specifically about gender equality and was considering Ross Lyon as Head Coach.

 

[footyfan1978]

I'm hoping Voss has the right assistant coaches around him to be successful, if they had have got Lyon i would've been happy as well.

I would have been content with Ross Lyon if we not picked Voss. But had slight concern in terms of Lyon past teams been coached to be overly defensive and despite that been so effective he nearly won a flag, I would always prefer to watch a team that just as willing to score to win as defend to reduce opposition scoring. But there was always a chance Lyon had some changes in his coaching to be more balanced and more enjoyable teams to watch play footy.
The few things that slightly had me favour Voss over Lyon were that he was quite a bit younger, so if he turns out very good, we could have him a long and successful time. Ross Lyon due to age more likely to be shorter stint.
But overall I was confident if either one of them were coach will would be a lot better off and seriously improve as a team.
I had a bit each way, so to speak. I actually put a bet on both. I had it split so if Lyon was coach I win some money as he was longer odds but if he was not coach, I had enough on Voss to make sure I got my money back. I think I ended up 20 cents ahead....

 

[Robertio]

I would have been content with Ross Lyon if we not picked Voss. But had slight concern in terms of Lyon past teams been coached to be overly defensive and despite that been so effective he nearly won a flag, I would always prefer to watch a team that just as willing to score to win as defend to reduce opposition scoring. But there was always a chance Lyon had some changes in his coaching to be more balanced and more enjoyable teams to watch play footy.
The few things that slightly had me favour Voss over Lyon were that he was quite a bit younger, so if he turns out very good, we could have him a long and successful time. Ross Lyon due to age more likely to be shorter stint.
But overall I was confident if either one of them were coach will would be a lot better off and seriously improve as a team.
I had a bit each way, so to speak. I actually put a bet on both. I had it split so if Lyon was coach I win some money as he was longer odds but if he was not coach, I had enough on Voss to make sure I got my money back. I think I ended up 20 cents ahead....

I just wanted an experienced coach, 20 cents gets you nothing these days, in my younger days you could get a pie and coke and still have change.

 

[footyfan1978]

I just wanted an experienced coach, 20 cents gets you nothing these days, in my younger days you could get a pie and coke and still have change.

Maybe it would get me a pack of Scanlen chewies with a few footy cards in the pack.

 

[Davey33]

I reckon whenever this sort of thing is asked the safe and standard answer is 'current ladder position + 2 wins/spots). Ie: I think Carlton supporters are supposed to say "probably 6th-10th and hopefully we can sneak into the 8".

I'm going to go a different route and offer two scenarios:

1. Disaster Scenario
With Docherty, Marchbank, Cuningham already nursing injuries and likely to miss most/all of the year, things take a bad turn in preseason. Jones goes down, exposing a big hole in defence, while perennial injury candidates McGovern, Charlie Curnow, De Koning and Martin simply aren't ready to go for the start of the year. The team begins the season with 10 on the injury list, loses round 1 to Richmond before a surprisingly tough run of games (away at Fremantle, games at the MCG against a frisky Collingwood and a confident Essendon, and a trip to Tassie to play Hawthorn) see Carlton at 2-3 - and then we run into Geelong, Bulldogs and Melbourne to be 2-6, despite showing some signs of improvement.

Player wise, Cripps continues his slide, while Walsh, Weitering and McKay all regress slightly from 2021 form. In the midfield, there's still lack of clarity around roles - despite the hype, Hewitt really isn't a difference maker and Cerra is solid but unspectacular. With Dow, Kennedy and Setterfield all expecting midfield time too and Ed Curnow wanting a run, players are getting shunted around positions and there's a general sense things aren't quite working right. A midseason resurgence (3 wins in 5 games, and oh so close vs Port in Adelaide...) gives some room for optimism, but a shock loss to North right before the bye (and a weird knee injury to Harry McKay in that much) means that the season is pretty much done. As we head into the end of the year, Walsh still hasn't re-signed, there's whispers that 3-4 others preferred Teague and want out, and we slide again over the last month to finish 13 th and miserable.

Note: this is basically 2021 over again, and yes, I think 2021 was as close to the disaster scenario as you'll see a team have. We were still in touching distance of the 8 with a month to play (when the wheels totally fell off) and that's a mark of progress imo

2. Dream scenario.
After a strong pre-season, whispers start emerging from training camp... Charlie is moving well again... other guys are fit, the new players are settling in well, and most importantly, everyone loves Voss and the way he simplifies things but challenges them to be their best. Round 1, things just 'click' and we pants an underdone Richmond by 24 points (it really should have been more - we wasted some chances) before rolling into a nice easy start to the year: Freo are still re-tuning after some player changes, Collingwood are clearly going to be rebuilding this year, and Essendon have shown their true colours once again. After belting likely wooden spooners Hawthorn in Tassie, we're 5-0 and flying, and even manage to win one of our next 3 agianst top 4 teams Geelong, Melbourne and the Bulldogs.

Player wise, Cripps looks back to his best, Cerra and Hewitt complement the young players in the midfield and Dow/Setterfield suddenly look like different players who can play a complementary role. The back 7 (Jones/Weitering/Williams/Saad/Plowman/Newman/Stocker) look confident and stable. With a fit Curnow, McGovern, Martin and Fisher (all who missed 11+ matches in 2021), the forward line is dangerous and firing and we look to have depth at every spot on the park, while even our ruck combo of De Koning/Pittonet is suprirsingly competent.

After a run of easier games (including 'arriving' with a tough win vs Port in Adelaide) we trounce North by 80+ and head into the bye full of confidence at 11-3. As we head into the second half of the year things tail off a bit - McGovern and Jack Martin go down with injury, we drop 1-2 close ones but its still enough to sneak into a top 4 spot. And, playing Geelong at the MCG in week 1 of the finals with a prelim spot on the line, well you know the Navy Blue army will be loud and proud and miracles can happen... two weeks later we waltz into a home preliminary final, and the club invites 22 former premiership players to deliver the pre-game address and talk about how much it means to them... and suddenly the sky looks to be the limit... from there, it's all about what happens on the park.

The reality is probably somewhere in between the two. But what I will say is that 2022 is (at least at this stage) the first year since 2012 where there is a genuine 'dream' path to the top 4 available for Carlton. Now... I think we're a key injury or two from that flipping very fast, and I've been critical of our list management for this reason (sad as it is, you simply can't carry a reduced size list with Docherty/Marchbank and two other players rehabbing knee inuries and not expect the worst). But there's a path, even if I'd lean towards the likely outcome being close to the 'disaster' scenario than the 'dream'.

this is funny. Points for creativity

 

[HBF]

So Geelong dont have a respects program?

How would I know.
I'm just commenting on the Carlton Footy Club.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Scuttlebut is right.
That would be a terrible reason not to hire him.

It's scuttlebutt to the media and us plebs. The club knows the exact reasons, as does Lyon.
You're just refusing to accept that there might have been a genuine reason why he wasn't hired, simply because you don't know that reason.
You didn't even seem to be aware of a conflict between the accusations and the Carlton Respects program, which indicates that you don't seem to be following it very closely and are just annoyed about Voss being chosen over Lyon, with no context.

 

[NewMelbournian]

Carlton FC belongs at the top. We are a big club, we belong as heavyweight premiership contenders. The Tigers were dormant for a long time, they were seen as a joke, then things clicked. We are also a sleeping giant. We will get there too.

 

[Dan]

Carlton FC belongs at the top. We are a big club, we belong as heavyweight premiership contenders. The Tigers were dormant for a long time, they were seen as a joke, then things clicked. We are also a sleeping giant. We will get there too.

 

[blue healer]

It's scuttlebutt to the media and us plebs. The club knows the exact reasons, as does Lyon.
You're just refusing to accept that there might have been a genuine reason why he wasn't hired, simply because you don't know that reason.
You didn't even seem to be aware of a conflict between the accusations and the Carlton Respects program, which indicates that you don't seem to be following it very closely and are just annoyed about Voss being chosen over Lyon, with no context.

Just FWIW there is a genuine reason that Lyon isn't Carlton's coach. It is simply that he withdrew from the race, any other reason is pure speculation by both sides of this discussion.