When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

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LordLucifer

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Mar 20, 2002
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The North Shore Daaaahling !!
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Carlton on paper should have one of the better back 6s in the league:

FB: Saad - Weitering - Plowman
HB: Docherty - Jones - Williams

7th defender: Newman/Williamson/Parks
Saad - great burst & kick, can be too loose with his direct opponent
Weitering - a rock of gibraltar, hardly makes a mistake
Plowman - don't understand why he gets the adulation he does, way too many errors for me
Docherty - don't care what he was like, he is a spent force now
Jones - Jekyll & Hyde, cannot be relied upon forever
Williams - should be better than he has shown thus far
Newman - laser-like left foot but does have some limitations
Williamson - was tracking well but has fallen off the precipice
Parks - if we are being honest with ourselves, this guy is primarily a VFL player
 

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freddy mercury

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 20, 2009
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So sick of Carlton supporters blaming coaches, culture, fitness, gameplans and so on.

They're still s*** because they've stuffed up nearly every recruiting and drafting decision since 2017. It's arguably the worst period of list management in football history.

The only absolute hit they've had in that period is the one decision they couldn't stuff up: Sam Walsh. TDK and Fisher should be good. Stocker and Kemp unproven. Rest are busts.

Then the 'marquee deals'. Mitch McGovern on 5x800k is just unfathomable in hindsight. Jack Martin on 5x600k isn't far behind. Zac Williams 5x900k is trending the same way. These guys need to be stars or potential stars of the club on that sort of money. None of them are close.

You can't have four years of disastrous decision making like this and expect to be a good footy team. You'll stagnate around the middle of the table. Exactly where they are now.
THIS. They got Sam Walsh right, which was about as obvious as the nose on your face. Curnow at 12, i guess you can count that as getting one right.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 25, 2013
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Melbourne recruited people who can actually defend, something Williams and Saad don’t do
Saad and Williams can defend fine. The structures are horrible.

You were probably saying the same thing about Lever, May and Hibberd when Melbourne were lingering down the bottom 18 months ago.

Playing games together as a unit is just as important, though nothing beats some pressure from further up the field. We have none of that.
 

Noidnadroj

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Dec 8, 2020
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Wtf is this nonsense :'). No one could defende with the midfield pressure we apply... SPS and Stocker, poor bastards aren't even defenders.. The rookie Parks who's played there this year conveniently left off though to help their off the mark point.
The point is spot on and I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks in this thread. Look at the backline of almost all top teams …. they are filled with rookies, late draft picks, pre-season draft selections etc…. they are obviously easy to find and develop. So utilising large chunks of salary cap and trading out high draft picks is just madness for flankers. Unless you’re getting a genuine star like Whitfield, but Williams and Saad are not at that level.

As for those mentioning Lever and May. They are outstanding DEFENDERS and Melbourne has the best defence in the competition. They are also not mid-sized flankers.




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Kreuuuzeurns

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 25, 2013
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The point is spot on and I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks in this thread. Look at the backline of almost all top teams …. they are filled with rookies, late draft picks, pre-season draft selections etc…. they are obviously easy to find and develop. So utilising large chunks of salary cap and trading out high draft picks is just madness for flankers. Unless you’re getting a genuine star like Whitfield, but Williams and Saad are not at that level.

As for those mentioning Lever and May. They are outstanding DEFENDERS and Melbourne has the best defence in the competition. They are also not mid-sized flankers.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
They weren’t outstanding 18 months ago when they had played 5 games together and the ball was coming in a million miles an hour.

You’re going far too early.
 

chunkylover53

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Aug 13, 2008
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The point is spot on and I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks in this thread. Look at the backline of almost all top teams …. they are filled with rookies, late draft picks, pre-season draft selections etc…. they are obviously easy to find and develop. So utilising large chunks of salary cap and trading out high draft picks is just madness for flankers. Unless you’re getting a genuine star like Whitfield, but Williams and Saad are not at that level.

As for those mentioning Lever and May. They are outstanding DEFENDERS and Melbourne has the best defence in the competition. They are also not mid-sized flankers.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
they're easy to find and develop because it depends on the midfield pressure coming in.

seriously have you watched any of us this year? they literally just waltz through the middle and spear it lace out - usually to the opponent of plowman, stocker or sps as they're easily isolated.
 

btdg

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Oct 7, 2005
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The point is spot on and I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks in this thread. Look at the backline of almost all top teams …. they are filled with rookies, late draft picks, pre-season draft selections etc…. they are obviously easy to find and develop. So utilising large chunks of salary cap and trading out high draft picks is just madness for flankers. Unless you’re getting a genuine star like Whitfield, but Williams and Saad are not at that level.

As for those mentioning Lever and May. They are outstanding DEFENDERS and Melbourne has the best defence in the competition. They are also not mid-sized flankers.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
I think your overall point is correct but that grqphic is deliberately misleading to overemphasise its point.

On the Carlton side:
- Plowman is included as a 'first round pick swap'. While that is technically true, it involved us upgrading and bringing forward our pick, deliberately, so we could add Harry McKay. The real 'Plowman' part of the deal was pick 28 for Plowman and 4 other guys.

- it includes SPS and Stocker who were drafted as midfielders, and filled roles in defence.

- it leaves out Tom Williamson and Luke Parks, both of whom have played more games in defence than Stocker, both acquired with late picks

- it includes Marchbank who hasn't played on 2+ years due to injury

On the Geelong side:
- it refers to Henderson as pick 17, when in fact it was an unprotected first round pick swap, as was Touhy.

The graphic probably overstates its point further because Geelong haven't had the same first round picks as Carlton or the cap space. But they have invested quite heavily in their defence - since 2015 they have traded 2 first round picks and used one other in the draft on defenders. That's half their first round picks!

Even if you count Stocker, SPS and Marchbank, Carlton have used 5 out of 13 first round picks in that time on defenders - a lower ratio. We have just had a lot more of them

I do agree with the overall point though and would layer in one of my own:

- Carlton have invested heavily in its defence, and yet they defence has been very poor this year. This is worth questioning
- Carlton have also invested heavily in midfielders then played them in defence (SPS, Stocker and Williams all fit this description). Does this strategy need questioning?
- many of the defenders indeed don't seem particularly invested in the 'defensive' side of the role (you can include Weitering in this). You definitely need run off half back but have we overestimated this, both in player style and game plan?

To me, the big difference with Geelong is that they have targeted players to play very specific defensive roles. Henderson was a KPD who wanted to play back and was unhappy at being made to play forward at Carlton, so theyvgave up a first for him. Often, rookies and late picks are just happy to be playing so they willingly take on defensive roles and invest in the defe sive side... just to get a run. Whereas converting mids, #1 picks... those guys always have a fall back and a mental excuse imo... just harder to get buy in. They might be more talented when they get there... but maybe we have missed the defensive buy in coming first...
 

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btdg

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We know Pagan and Malthouse could coach, but failed at Carlton... maybe it’s not the coach and a deep cultural issue.
Maybe Pagan and Malthouse created that 'culture', whatever that means...

Pagan took over when the club had just won its first wooden spoon, a definitive turning point.

Regardless of how you perceive Carlton prior to that point it had been continuously successful on field. (I assume someone will insert a salary cap joke here but that would be total bollocks).

2002 was an extreme outlier... the question was how would the club respond.

I'd argue Pagan created a host of cultural problems that persist to this day. He won two more wooden spoons. He enabled star players and played favourites. He made excuses, kept his job even after TWO wooden spoons in a row, etc.

Interesting that neither of the two clubs Pagan coached have made the top 4 in two decades after his departure (aside from North making 4th in the weak as piss 2007 season). He inherited the best player of all time and a bunch of stars at North and left them wallowing.

There was a revival under Ratten, and even sacking him for not getting over the hump was right at the time, and showed signs of rebirth imo.

Malthouse gutted the place. Brought in the worst culture and created the worst environment I can remember. The club went from chasing premierships to depths I don't think non-carlton supporters appreciate.
 

10571z

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Maybe Pagan and Malthouse created that 'culture', whatever that means...

Pagan took over when the club had just won its first wooden spoon, a definitive turning point.

Regardless of how you perceive Carlton prior to that point it had been continuously successful on field. (I assume someone will insert a salary cap joke here but that would be total bollocks).

2002 was an extreme outlier... the question was how would the club respond.

I'd argue Pagan created a host of cultural problems that persist to this day. He won two more wooden spoons. He enabled star players and played favourites. He made excuses, kept his job even after TWO wooden spoons in a row, etc.

Interesting that neither of the two clubs Pagan coached have made the top 4 in two decades after his departure (aside from North making 4th in the weak as piss 2007 season). He inherited the best player of all time and a bunch of stars at North and left them wallowing.

There was a revival under Ratten, and even sacking him for not getting over the hump was right at the time, and showed signs of rebirth imo.

Malthouse gutted the place. Brought in the worst culture and created the worst environment I can remember. The club went from chasing premierships to depths I don't think non-carlton supporters appreciate.
Be more dramatic, maybe Malthouse gutting the place is what you needed.

Maybe if they stuck by Malthouse they’d have a flag. Seems it’s always everyone else’s fault at Carlton, funny Malthouse was able to succeed at West Coast and Collingwood
 

owen87

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Apr 23, 2016
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Maybe Pagan and Malthouse created that 'culture', whatever that means...

Pagan took over when the club had just won its first wooden spoon, a definitive turning point.

Regardless of how you perceive Carlton prior to that point it had been continuously successful on field. (I assume someone will insert a salary cap joke here but that would be total bollocks).

2002 was an extreme outlier... the question was how would the club respond.

I'd argue Pagan created a host of cultural problems that persist to this day. He won two more wooden spoons. He enabled star players and played favourites. He made excuses, kept his job even after TWO wooden spoons in a row, etc.

Interesting that neither of the two clubs Pagan coached have made the top 4 in two decades after his departure (aside from North making 4th in the weak as piss 2007 season). He inherited the best player of all time and a bunch of stars at North and left them wallowing.

There was a revival under Ratten, and even sacking him for not getting over the hump was right at the time, and showed signs of rebirth imo.

Malthouse gutted the place. Brought in the worst culture and created the worst environment I can remember. The club went from chasing premierships to depths I don't think non-carlton supporters appreciate.
Pagan and Malthouse were also brought in at the tail end of their careers.

Being a good coach isn't a static thing, as the game changes, coaches reach the end of their tenure, we've seen it happen repeatedly through history.
 

Rich01

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Oct 5, 2004
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I think your overall point is correct but that grqphic is deliberately misleading to overemphasise its point.

On the Carlton side:
- Plowman is included as a 'first round pick swap'. While that is technically true, it involved us upgrading and bringing forward our pick, deliberately, so we could add Harry McKay. The real 'Plowman' part of the deal was pick 28 for Plowman and 4 other guys.

- it includes SPS and Stocker who were drafted as midfielders, and filled roles in defence.

- it leaves out Tom Williamson and Luke Parks, both of whom have played more games in defence than Stocker, both acquired with late picks

- it includes Marchbank who hasn't played on 2+ years due to injury

On the Geelong side:
- it refers to Henderson as pick 17, when in fact it was an unprotected first round pick swap, as was Touhy.

The graphic probably overstates its point further because Geelong haven't had the same first round picks as Carlton or the cap space. But they have invested quite heavily in their defence - since 2015 they have traded 2 first round picks and used one other in the draft on defenders. That's half their first round picks!

Even if you count Stocker, SPS and Marchbank, Carlton have used 5 out of 13 first round picks in that time on defenders - a lower ratio. We have just had a lot more of them

I do agree with the overall point though and would layer in one of my own:

- Carlton have invested heavily in its defence, and yet they defence has been very poor this year. This is worth questioning
- Carlton have also invested heavily in midfielders then played them in defence (SPS, Stocker and Williams all fit this description). Does this strategy need questioning?
- many of the defenders indeed don't seem particularly invested in the 'defensive' side of the role (you can include Weitering in this). You definitely need run off half back but have we overestimated this, both in player style and game plan?

To me, the big difference with Geelong is that they have targeted players to play very specific defensive roles. Henderson was a KPD who wanted to play back and was unhappy at being made to play forward at Carlton, so theyvgave up a first for him. Often, rookies and late picks are just happy to be playing so they willingly take on defensive roles and invest in the defe sive side... just to get a run. Whereas converting mids, #1 picks... those guys always have a fall back and a mental excuse imo... just harder to get buy in. They might be more talented when they get there... but maybe we have missed the defensive buy in coming first...
I don’t disagree.

The elephant in the room is drafting and trading for the blues over the last 6 years.

Marchbank and Setterfield trades.
Kennedy for a pick in the 20s.
Dow, SPS, LOB all top ten picks.

I’ve heard dozens of times that as soon as the likes of Dow, SPS, LOB, Lang, Kennedy, Cuningham, Walsh, Setterfield come on to support Cripps the Blues will be a force.

Apart from Walsh there hasn’t really been a whimper from the others. The best I’ve seen from some of them is occasional contributors.

The McGovern contract. How many years did he demand to come across?

Even the Williams and Martin contracts aren’t looking like what Carlton fans would have hoped for output at this stage.

Not great from 6 draft and trade periods.
 

btdg

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Oct 7, 2005
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I don’t disagree.

The elephant in the room is drafting and trading for the blues over the last 6 years.

Marchbank and Setterfield trades.
Kennedy for a pick in the 20s.
Dow, SPS, LOB all top ten picks.

I’ve heard dozens of times that as soon as the likes of Dow, SPS, LOB, Lang, Kennedy, Cuningham, Walsh, Setterfield come on to support Cripps the Blues will be a force.

Apart from Walsh there hasn’t really been a whimper from the others. The best I’ve seen from some of them is occasional contributors.

The McGovern contract. How many years did he demand to come across?

Even the Williams and Martin contracts aren’t looking like what Carlton fans would have hoped for output at this stage.

Not great from 6 draft and trade periods.
I feel like this goes around in circles, but I don't think the problem is drafting and trading overall. Most of those players were well regarded generally, and have shown they have the skillset to be successful players. In most cases, the value was pretty fair as well.

If there is an issue with drafting/trading I think there is (was?) a tendency to under-rate the significance of injuries to young players. The most important skill a player has is just getting on the park; if they are injured, they can't develop, can't contribute, can't play a role at all. Marchbank, Setterfield, recently Kemp, prior to that guys like Jaksch and Sumner... and then McGovern, even Williams has had injury issues, etc.

With the rest, the lack of contribution and development is astonishing - It's simply incredible that such a collection of first-round pick midfielders could produce so little - even by accident you would expect more. I mean, if you simply replace those names with the next midfielder/outside player in the draft (generally to clubs equally crap overall) you get: Cerra, Ling, Scrimshaw, Gresham, Keays (I'm ignoring Lang as no one EVER said he would make Carlton a force). That's not a murderers row, plenty of misses, a couple of guys who also took time to find their feet, but drafting and developing midfielders should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

The fact that it is so uniformly crap across that particular line (we're doing fine developing talls, for example) suggests it wasn't drafting. There's plenty of speculation as to what it was instead but it doesn't really matter unless you have an interest in potting SOS.

Williams contract is a turd. Martin - that one's fine, he's a nothing player but his contract is pretty bog standard after a signing bonus in year one. Mcgovern somewhere between the two.
 

btdg

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Oh, and from my last two posts.

There's probably a connection between:
- the lack of development of our midfielders
- a sense we are playing too many midfielders in defence, where they don't defend very well (despite being high draft picks or highly paid)
- a lack of confidence by the players, and a lack of confidence in the team selection and gameplan

Hmmm
 

La Dispute

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Martin - that one's fine, he's a nothing player but his contract is pretty bog standard after a signing bonus in year one.
If we hadn't picked him up for free and paid our own offer of the equivalent of a late first we'd be looking at it as a net loss.

Was looking an awesome pickup in the first half of last year before succumbing to injury, and hasn't quite had the impact we would have liked. He's not a junior player but he needed some further development in his game when he came across, and we haven't seen much intervention.

Still floats around the field as not quite a forward and not quite a midfielder, and that's why it's partly hard to criticise him - it's hard to know exactly what we're supposed to expect.

In isolation it doesn't matter we're paying slight overs for his formline, but add that to a number of others we're overpaying (some we are drastically overpaying) and it begins to add up.
 

chunkylover53

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Aug 13, 2008
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Be more dramatic, maybe Malthouse gutting the place is what you needed.

Maybe if they stuck by Malthouse they’d have a flag. Seems it’s always everyone else’s fault at Carlton, funny Malthouse was able to succeed at West Coast and Collingwood
now you're trolling. mick gutted required players and bought in spuds. he took us from a finals team to the wooden spooners and the oldest - that's an achievement within itself.

his time with us vs. WCE and Collingwood is different, he was coaching for all the wrong reasons and you as a collingwood supporter know it better than anyone.
 

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