When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[schmuttt]

1964!

Sorry carlton moderator I’m unsure of the relevance of this post, could you please elaborate?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

You've got a decent base of experience to build fast on - keep the team together and no reason why finals isnt possible in 22 - I fully expect Carlton to be playing finals in 22 and onwards - teams aren't that far apart with best 22 on ground.

We've played some relatively good footy this year, I think. And we currently sit in the bottom four. I think you're underestimating how far off we are, we need a fair few more games into the team to be able to sustain effort for four quarters.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Sorry carlton moderator I’m unsure of the relevance of this post, could you please elaborate?

Oh I'm pretty sure you are aware.
She's a moderator on a different board. This doesn't stop her from firing back at someone who is having a crack at her own team. She's subject to the same rules as the rest of us, so feel free to report the post if it bothers you, but the mods on this board will pull her up if she oversteps the mark.

 

[JustaBattler]

Totally agree. I question our game style and especially our defensive structure. It’s poor and has been getting worse. Seems like we have no plan. Worst I have seen. Side score way too easily against us.

Until we fix that we aren’t a finals side

The game plan switched from numbers behind the ball under Bolton - where the criticism was Carlton cant score - to pushing forward and getting the ball into forward 50 as fast as possible and trying to keep it there - now the criticism is Carlton are weak at defending turnovers - both fair criticisms of what is a pretty basic game plan. It falls down if forward tackling pressure is poor or too many forward fifty entries are just bombs to disadvantage - allowing for easy exits. It also falls down if basic kicking skills are poor - this has been on display all year. Better sides expose these bombs and poor field kicking - lesser ides less so.

Defensive capability will improve as better players coming back in execute basic skills better and also cover their opponents better with basic field awareness.

The whole game plan was predicated on three talls and three decent smaller forwards. Current scoring ability is pretty much Harry McKay a one-legged Levi and an always injured McGovern - as for smalls Fogarty/Gibbons/Owies/Eddie mix is average. Just getting TDK/SPJ/MArtin/Fisher back in will make a huge difference.

The side looks better with Cuningham/Walsh on ball - again Martin/Williams/Fisher rotating through will just add to that - LoB/Philp/Caroll /Dow need to pressure Newnes/Gibbons/Cottrell types out - so the skill levels go up between the arcs.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

We've played some relatively good footy this year, I think. And we currently sit in the bottom four. I think you're underestimating how far off we are, we need a fair few more games into the team to be able to sustain effort for four quarters.

What part of his post was underestimating? Was a very reasonable post. I reckon he was overestimating if anything, but it's subjective really.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

What part of his post was underestimating? Was a very reasonable post. I reckon he was overestimating if anything, but it's subjective really.

Exactly what I said - I think's he's underestimating how far off finals we are.

 

[JustaBattler]

We've played some relatively good footy this year, I think. And we currently sit in the bottom four. I think you're underestimating how far off we are, we need a fair few more games into the team to be able to sustain effort for four quarters.

True - but that is every Club's challenge - you have avoided the forced full rebuild black hole though and have a core group of developed players to help the young guns - much better position than Carlton was in. On big-bodied mid and a couple of KPP players short of being just fine.

 

[Soapy V]

The game plan switched from numbers behind the ball under Bolton - where the criticism was Carlton cant score - to pushing forward and getting the ball into forward 50 as fast as possible and trying to keep it there - now the criticism is Carlton are weak at defending turnovers - both fair criticisms of what is a pretty basic game plan. It falls down if forward tackling pressure is poor or too many forward fifty entries are just bombs to disadvantage - allowing for easy exits. It also falls down if basic kicking skills are poor - this has been on display all year. Better sides expose these bombs and poor field kicking - lesser ides less so.

Defensive capability will improve as better players coming back in execute basic skills better and also cover their opponents better with basic field awareness.

The whole game plan was predicated on three talls and three decent smaller forwards. Current scoring ability is pretty much Harry McKay a one-legged Levi and an always injured McGovern - as for smalls Fogarty/Gibbons/Owies/Eddie mix is average. Just getting TDK/SPJ/MArtin/Fisher back in will make a huge difference.

The side looks better with Cuningham/Walsh on ball - again Martin/Williams/Fisher rotating through will just add to that - LoB/Philp/Caroll /Dow need to pressure Newnes/Gibbons/Cottrell types out - so the skill levels go up between the arcs.

Some very fair comments Jab.

Whilst I agree there are some personnel issues and a number of players will make a difference I still believe it's our game style and structure that's the issue. We are playing a "run and gun" style of game and just bomb it forward. When some fatigue kicks in we start to look for options and hit targets. We play one one one old style defence and we get caught out trying to cover. It's very simplistic and easily picked apart. I wonder do we have any tactical talent in our coaching structure. Teague Barker Amos Bruce Stanton don't exactly come from success and strike me as tactical guru's

Jack TDK Martin Williams Fisher Newman and the improvement in Development will help but IMO it's more than that. Good sides pick us apart. The next two weeks will tell us a lot about where we stand

 

[Soapy V]

We've played some relatively good footy this year, I think. And we currently sit in the bottom four. I think you're underestimating how far off we are, we need a fair few more games into the team to be able to sustain effort for four quarters.

It will take 3-4 years for Jones Perkins Cox Reid to be genuine finals players. That is just reality. They need 80 plus games and the body to do it

 

[JustaBattler]

Some very fair comments Jab.

Whilst I agree there are some personnel issues and a number of players will make a difference I still believe it's our game style and structure that's the issue. We are playing a "run and gun" style of game and just bomb it forward. When some fatigue kicks in we start to look for options and hit targets. We play one one one old style defence and we get caught out trying to cover. It's very simplistic and easily picked apart. I wonder do we have any tactical talent in our coaching structure. Teague Barker Amos Bruce Stanton don't exactly come from success and strike me as tactical guru's

Jack TDK Martin Williams Fisher Newman and the improvement in Development will help but IMO it's more than that. Good sides pick us apart. The next two weeks will tell us a lot about where we stand

Yeah Soap - the coaching shortcomings are pretty obvious - especially in the continued amateur hour setups around contests - just improving structures and employing some basic drilled patterns would be welcome for sure. Not sure I disagree with the man on man defensive idea- but too many currently playing don't take open field tackling as seriously as they should - but lack of kicking skill makes any plan look poor at times.....

as for Teague's game plan - it is pretty much what was employed at Adelaide when he was there - fast kick to kick into forward line markers. Carlton doesn't have the field kicking skill that Adelaide was full of back then - nor the number of safe tall marks in forward line.

I think better judgment can be made when something closer to best 22 actually gets on the park for Carlton this year - no one expected Marcgbank/Newman/Fisher/Martin/TDK to be out - the game plan was developed with a view to who would be playing - not who got injured in pre-season or first couple of games...Kemp for example would already be playing AFL if he had started as planned.

I'm keeping fang and claw in check till I see how the side goes -with 4-5 fewer VFL players in it week in week out.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It will take 3-4 years for Jones Perkins Cox Reid to be genuine finals players. That is just reality. They need 80 plus games and the body to do it

Yep. None of them have played 10 games. Along with Draper (10 games), Caldwell (13 games) and Bryan (1 game), they probably have to be the core of our next push. And they won’t all work out, some will be busts.

McGrath, Tippa, Stringer, Sheil, Ridley, Parish, Heppell and Merrett are a good core of experience when fit, but you need a lot more than eight players.

 

[Soapy V]

Yeah Soap - the coaching shortcomings are pretty obvious - especially in the continued amateur hour setups around contests - just improving structures and employing some basic drilled patterns would be welcome for sure. Not sure I disagree with the man on man defensive idea- but too many currently playing don't take open field tackling as seriously as they should - but lack of kicking skill makes any plan look poor at times.....

as for Teague's game plan - it is pretty much what was employed at Adelaide when he was there - fast kick to kick into forward line markers. Carlton doesn't have the field kicking skill that Adelaide was full of back then - nor the number of safe tall marks in forward line.

I think better judgment can be made when something closer to best 22 actually gets on the park for Carlton this year - no one expected Marcgbank/Newman/Fisher/Martin/TDK to be out - the game plan was developed with a view to who would be playing - not who got injured in pre-season or first couple of games...Kemp for example would already be playing AFL if he had started as planned.

I'm keeping fang and claw in check till I see how the side goes -with 4-5 fewer VFL players in it week in week out.

I always expected we would be playing better football in the second half of the year as players come back and our improved development structure and Reserves side pays off.

At the end of the year I think there will be significant changes to our coaching which is needed.

That's my take and why I think 2022 is the year we start being a serious side. The talent is there

 

[Soapy V]

Greg Williams called Paddy Dow soft.

When you have one of Carltons toughest players ever calling him soft I would stay away.

Didn't say soft. Said he needs to toughen up. He was 19. Dow has toughened up a lot and is getting better. He's not far away. How long before Parish became the player he is today?

 

[JustaBattler]

Everyone expected Sydney to be bottom 4 this year....when things click they click. The other truism is that 2-3 injuries to key players in any side can make a huge difference. Looking forward to after the bye...

 

[owen87]

How long before Parish became the player he is today?

Parish played 20 games in his first season averaging 20.8 disposals, 3.5 marks, 3.3 tackles, and 3.2 clearances, and has averaged basically the same until this season when he's now actually getting the opportunity to play on-ball.

Dow has never averaged those numbers in one season, he's barely bettered them in more than a game or two a season.

Across his entire career Parish has shown that when played as a full-time onballer, he's a good midfielder.

I wouldn't say the two are at all comparable, Parish's criticism was that he was a vanilla midfielder, Dow hasn't even reached the lofty heights of vanilla.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Exactly what I said - I think's he's underestimating how far off finals we are.

Sorry mate, misunderstood your post. Thought you were saying the opposite.

 

[Soapy V]

Parish played 20 games in his first season averaging 20.8 disposals, 3.5 marks, 3.3 tackles, and 3.2 clearances, and has averaged basically the same until this season when he's now actually getting the opportunity to play on-ball.

Dow has never averaged those numbers in one season, he's barely bettered them in more than a game or two a season.

Across his entire career Parish has shown that when played as a full-time onballer, he's a good midfielder.

I wouldn't say the two are at all comparable, Parish's criticism was that he was a vanilla midfielder, Dow hasn't even reached the lofty heights of vanilla.

Even for this website this is a dumb post

 

[owen87]

Even for this website this is a dumb tweet

Parish was literally averaging better numbers than Dow from the time he was 18. Dow is now 21 and in 4 seasons has yet to put together one where he averages Parish's first season numbers.

It's a terrible comparison.

 

[Soapy V]

Parish was literally averaging better numbers than Dow from the time he was 18. Dow is now 21 and in 4 seasons has yet to put together one where he averages Parish's first season numbers.

It's a terrible comparison.

Proof players develop differently. Stats mean very little

 

[schmuttt]

Thinks, that may have meant, that was the last time your club was relevant..
Also your club would have went the way of Fitzroy, if it wasn't for your "Melbourne" name

Have to admit though it's good to see Melbourne on top of the ladder..
Your whole 10 Bigfooty members have come out of their Range Rover box

That’s great mate but blatant trolling like your post, the one I replied to and the ones quoted beforehand are all crap and should be deleted.

 

[Ambrosia]

Proof players develop differently. Stats mean very little

There just isn’t any logical basis to compare Parish to Dow. Parish has been a productive midfielder from day one whereas Dow struggles to crack 15 disposals and has been one of the poorest ball users in the league.

There’s plenty of players who’ve struggled to make an impact early in their career but went on to have good careers. I don’t know why Blues fans keep bringing up Parish as a comparison.

 

[JustaBattler]

Parish was literally averaging better numbers than Dow from the time he was 18. Dow is now 21 and in 4 seasons has yet to put together one where he averages Parish's first season numbers.

It's a terrible comparison.

You cant compare the development environment that Parish entered to the genuine build from nothing situation that Dow and his other fellow mid recruits entered into at Carlton. Parish is a far more accomplished mid than Dow is - there is no debate that can be made about that - all one has to look for is kicking ability.

Dow was and still is - an undersized inside mid playing next to a bunch of other under-sized inside mids- getting smashed week in week out for his first 2 years and injured the next. At the grand old age of 20 he has some time to develop - the tough thing for him will be to actually cement a spot in the starting midfield at Carlton - there are a few likely prospects in development in VFL right now he has to get over - I can't see him being preferred over Wiliams/Cripps/Walsh or Ed Curnow atm and he currently lacks the polish to be a HFF/mid rotation - where Martin/Williams/Fisher//Fogarty/Cuningham ( I won't mention 2-3 other you've never heard about in VFL ) all having better credentials - not to mention SPS who has (finally) been kicked out of HBF.

What Dow does have is fast hands and genuine burst speed - time will tell if he develops any other tricks.

 

[Robertio]

Parish played 20 games in his first season averaging 20.8 disposals, 3.5 marks, 3.3 tackles, and 3.2 clearances, and has averaged basically the same until this season when he's now actually getting the opportunity to play on-ball.

Dow has never averaged those numbers in one season, he's barely bettered them in more than a game or two a season.

Across his entire career Parish has shown that when played as a full-time onballer, he's a good midfielder.

I wouldn't say the two are at all comparable, Parish's criticism was that he was a vanilla midfielder, Dow hasn't even reached the lofty heights of vanilla.

Settle down Tiger he wasn't comparing them as players.

 

[Robertio]

That’s great mate but blatant trolling like your post, the one I replied to and the ones quoted beforehand are all crap and should be deleted.

You reckon your mate Cotchins posts are ok?

 

[schmuttt]

You reckon your mate Cotchins posts are ok?

‘The ones quoted beforehand’

No I wouldn’t have thought so.