When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Ron The Bear]

Blues look to copy Richmond, Geelong programs to support coach David Teague (paywalled)

Carlton believes Nathan Buckley parting ways with Collingwood this week is irrelevant to its football review as it considers changes to strengthen David Teague’s program.

But the Blues would have to notify its assistant coaches of any likely changes by August 1 — an industry standard — as the club considers a revamped coaching team.

Carlton’s external review is yet to set its panel and exact terms as president elect Luke Sayers seeks to make a splash upon his elevation to power.

But Carlton would look to bolster Teague’s support crew in a similar fashion to Geelong with Mark Thompson and Richmond for Damien Hardwick when both were struggling.

Fall Carlton, just don't fall on me
Ride on Mr. LoGiudice, you can't dress like me

- If 16 (Flags) Was 19

 

[Soapy V]

We know Pagan and Malthouse could coach, but failed at Carlton... maybe it’s not the coach and a deep cultural issue.

It is but when they went there it was also a basket case off field. That has now changed and is strong.

It is now a cultural issue in the football department. It needs change, the right people to develop a winning structure. The list has a good core. Talent isn’t the issue it’s culture

Easy for people to criticise from the outside but this was always a massive task. To completely rebuild a club is damn hard and needs so much to go right. Just look at the advantages GCS & GWS have had and yet haven’t won a flag.

The good thing is we have so much right. This review and what we do will effect the next 20 years.

it’s massive

 

[SurreyBlue]

Collingwood made blunders building as well. You have list managers, the senior coach has only so much say.

Malthouse directly made these calls.

 

[Duece1995]

It is but when they went there it was also a basket case off field. That has now changed and is strong.

It is now a cultural issue in the football department. It needs change, the right people to develop a winning structure. The list has a good core. Talent isn’t the issue it’s culture

Easy for people to criticise from the outside but this was always a massive task. To completely rebuild a club is damn hard and needs so much to go right. Just look at the advantages GCS & GWS have had and yet haven’t won a flag.

The good thing is we have so much right. This review and what we do will effect the next 20 years.

it’s massive

Soap, any truth to this info?
Some info I have I will leave it here, talking to Lyon, Mitchell and Voss and two others.

Cripps may not sign, SPS, Dow, O'Brien might be moved on. SPS is unhappy the way he has been treated, not being played in the right position mainly.

Harry has a big offer from us, but North, Essendon, Hawk's very interested.

Club not impressed with Murphy after he was dropped.

 

[Soapy V]

Soap, any truth to this info?
Some info I have I will leave it here, talking to Lyon, Mitchell and Voss and two others.

Cripps may not sign, SPS, Dow, O'Brien might be moved on. SPS is unhappy the way he has been treated, not being played in the right position mainly.

Harry has a big offer from us, but North, Essendon, Hawk's very interested.

Club not impressed with Murphy after he was dropped.

Everyone is just waiting for see what happens. List decisions etc haven’t been made and most contract discussions have been put on hold.

Several coaches have been sounded out to gauge interest but none approached directly. Heaps of Rumours but little facts

I believe first appointment that will be made is a strong Head of Football to help with changes following review

change of coach etc may well change players moving or not

 

[owen87]

Club not impressed with Murphy after he was dropped.

If he's going to sook regardless, might as well wait until he's played game 299 then drop him again.

 

[KnobHead]

Everyone is just waiting for see what happens. List decisions etc haven’t been made and most contract discussions have been put on hold.

Several coaches have been sounded out to gauge interest but none approached directly. Heaps of Rumours but little facts

I believe fist appointment that will be made is a strong Head of Football to help with changes following review

change of coach etc may well change players moving or not

Think the head of football, football administrator, whatever you want to call it - the Neil Balme role - is the most crucial for Blues going forward. Someone that can create that winning culture through the club.

Not an easy role - setting standards that take players well outside their comfort zone and getting them to believe in it.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Soapy V]

If he's going to sook regardless, might as well wait until he's played game 299 then drop him again.

shouldn’t have played this year and that’s on Teague

 

[Noidnadroj]

they're easy to find and develop because it depends on the midfield pressure coming in.

seriously have you watched any of us this year? they literally just waltz through the middle and spear it lace out - usually to the opponent of plowman, stocker or sps as they're easily isolated.

You are missing the main crux of the debate. Carlton have given up pick-8 and $1.4m of their salary cap to bring in Saad and Williams, which is crazy when you consider where top teams are securing majority of their backline talent:

Richmond backline:
Baker: 2017 rookie draft
Short: 2014 Rookie Draft
Houli: 2010 PSD
Grimes: 2009 PSD
Astbury : 2009 draft #35
Balta: 2017 draft #25
Vlastuin : 2012 draft #9
Broad; 2015 draft #67

Sydney:
Dawson: 2015 draft Pick #56
Lloyd: 2012 rookie draft
Rampe: 2013 draft pick #90
Melican: 2014 rookie draft
McCartin: 2017 draft #33

Dogs:
Cordy: 2014 draft #62
Crozier : Freo trade pick #40
Dale : 2014 draft #45
Daniel: 2014 draft #46
Duryea: traded for future 4th rounder
Keath: traded for equivalent of about #35
Wood : 2007 draft #43
Williams: 2015 draft #48


Port:
Amon: 2013 draft pick #68
Houston: 2015 Rookie draft
DBJ: 2013 draft pick #52
McKenzie: Delisted FA
Clurey: 2012 draft #29
Jonas: 2012 draft #85

Geelong:
Atkins : 2018 rookie draft
Henry: 2016 rookie draft
Stewart : 2016 draft pick #40
Blicavs: 2011 rookie draft
Kolodjashnij : 2013 draft #41
O’Connor : Category B rookie

And so on ……

So the point is not whether Saad or Williams can be good quality defenders…. They are both good players. But they are no better than majority of backline players mentioned above. They are better than some, worse than others.

But when it’s clearly shown to be easy to pick up defenders from any number of sources at low cost in terms of draft picks and trades, and low budget, giving up pick-8 and $1.4m for 2 x 26yo’s who are not elite players is not good list management when you see how the better teams have developed their backlines.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[bigm386]

shouldn’t have played this year and that’s on Teague

I feel like it's really tarnished his reputation.

300 games is meaningless.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I feel like this goes around in circles, but I don't think the problem is drafting and trading overall. Most of those players were well regarded generally, and have shown they have the skillset to be successful players. In most cases, the value was pretty fair as well.

If there is an issue with drafting/trading I think there is (was?) a tendency to under-rate the significance of injuries to young players. The most important skill a player has is just getting on the park; if they are injured, they can't develop, can't contribute, can't play a role at all. Marchbank, Setterfield, recently Kemp, prior to that guys like Jaksch and Sumner... and then McGovern, even Williams has had injury issues, etc.

With the rest, the lack of contribution and development is astonishing - It's simply incredible that such a collection of first-round pick midfielders could produce so little - even by accident you would expect more. I mean, if you simply replace those names with the next midfielder/outside player in the draft (generally to clubs equally crap overall) you get: Cerra, Ling, Scrimshaw, Gresham, Keays (I'm ignoring Lang as no one EVER said he would make Carlton a force). That's not a murderers row, plenty of misses, a couple of guys who also took time to find their feet, but drafting and developing midfielders should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

The fact that it is so uniformly crap across that particular line (we're doing fine developing talls, for example) suggests it wasn't drafting. There's plenty of speculation as to what it was instead but it doesn't really matter unless you have an interest in potting SOS.

Williams contract is a turd. Martin - that one's fine, he's a nothing player but his contract is pretty bog standard after a signing bonus in year one. Mcgovern somewhere between the two.

On what planet can McGovern’s contract not be regarded as an absolute unmitigated disaster? He has 2 more years to run on $800k per season. He is never fit. He has played 31 of 56 possible games. He has had 255 possessions in those 31 (avg. 8.2) games and kicked 35 goals.

Yet Carlton supporters I read here generally think he ‘hasn’t been too bad’ …. Even here regarding it as a better pick-up than Williams. At least Williams is AFL standard - I’ve watched plenty of Carlton and McGovern is barely AFL standard.

And this was not a terrible trade in hindsight … he was only ever a cameo man at Adelaide, and it was largely because he was 6th most important forward in line behind Tex, Lynch, Jenkins, Betts and Cameron.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Robertio]

On what planet can McGovern’s contract not be regarded as an absolute unmitigated disaster? He has 2 more years to run on $800k per season. He is never fit. He has played 31 of 56 possible games. He has had 255 possessions in those 31 (avg. 8.2) games and kicked 35 goals.

Yet Carlton supporters I read here generally think he ‘hasn’t been too bad’ …. Even here regarding it as a better pick-up than Williams. At least Williams is AFL standard - I’ve watched plenty of Carlton and McGovern is barely AFL standard.

And this was not a terrible trade in hindsight … he was only ever a cameo man at Adelaide, and it was largely because he was 6th most important forward in line behind Tex, Lynch, Jenkins, Betts and Cameron.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

We must be reading different forums, can you show me where a Carlton supporter said that the McGovern trade was a good one. Also the Saad trade reaped us Durdin as well.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Still boggled why they traded pick 8 for Saad.

 

[LordLucifer]

Think the head of football, football administrator, whatever you want to call it - the Neil Balme role - is the most crucial for Blues going forward. Someone that can create that winning culture through the club.

Not an easy role - setting standards that take players well outside their comfort zone and getting them to believe in it.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

He'd be the ideal appointment for us and he does owe us a favour after he KO'd Big Nick.

 

[LordLucifer]

If he's going to sook regardless, might as well wait until he's played game 299 then drop him again.

It's taken a while but you have given me a laugh with that post.

Hell ..... I'd do it !!

 

[btdg]

On what planet can McGovern’s contract not be regarded as an absolute unmitigated disaster? He has 2 more years to run on $800k per season. He is never fit. He has played 31 of 56 possible games. He has had 255 possessions in those 31 (avg. 8.2) games and kicked 35 goals.

Yet Carlton supporters I read here generally think he ‘hasn’t been too bad’ …. Even here regarding it as a better pick-up than Williams. At least Williams is AFL standard - I’ve watched plenty of Carlton and McGovern is barely AFL standard.

And this was not a terrible trade in hindsight … he was only ever a cameo man at Adelaide, and it was largely because he was 6th most important forward in line behind Tex, Lynch, Jenkins, Betts and Cameron.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I'm pretty sure I described McGovern's contract as somewhere between a turd and fine, but whatever. It's different to Williams because

- it isn't $800k per year. Details are guarded on this (most media thought it expired last year) but is most likely $700kish. The Australian listed him as the 51st highest paid player in the league last year. That's not great value, but it's a whole tier closer to where he sits.

- The bulk of his contract ran in a time period where we had oodles of cap space, no mature players, etc. Unlike Williams, where the bulk of his contract will come when our actually good players are mature. So that part doesn't hurt as much

- McGovern is a solid player, and you said exactly - a good 6th forward. He gives flexibility and options, blocks and creates space for other forwards. He at least does what he is supposed to do, unlike Williams.

Totally counterbalanced by injury. Just hasn't been fit enough to have the impact hoped. So yeah, I think if fully fit most Carlton supporters would be fine with McGovern, evem if he is overpaid.

Williams deal is in a whole other league and I don't think most fans yet see this (certainly not popular but I think we should trade him this off season, treloar style, because it's a noose around our neck for half a decade imo)

 

[FairKouta]

Still boggled why they traded pick 8 for Saad.

Cuz we pick up guys like dow and sps and obrien with top 10 picks

 

[PP34]

So sick of Carlton supporters blaming coaches, culture, fitness, gameplans and so on.

They're still s*** because they've stuffed up nearly every recruiting and drafting decision since 2017. It's arguably the worst period of list management in football history.

The only absolute hit they've had in that period is the one decision they couldn't stuff up: Sam Walsh. TDK and Fisher should be good. Stocker and Kemp unproven. Rest are busts.

Then the 'marquee deals'. Mitch McGovern on 5x800k is just unfathomable in hindsight. Jack Martin on 5x600k isn't far behind. Zac Williams 5x900k is trending the same way. These guys need to be stars or potential stars of the club on that sort of money. None of them are close.

You can't have four years of disastrous decision making like this and expect to be a good footy team. You'll stagnate around the middle of the table. Exactly where they are now.

Far out. Talk about exaggeration.

Drafting has been so so. Dow, O’Brien and De Koning in 2017. Walsh and Stocker in 2018. Kemp, Philp and Ramsay in 2019. 2020 far too early to judge. You’ve managed to write off a number of draft picks who have been at the club five minutes. Incredible.

Martin cost big money on a front loaded deal to ensure Carlton got him. Isn’t a superstar but has tricks and adds something the team doesn’t have up forward. He is an example of a club being forced to use the majority of their cap room.

Williams has been at the club five minutes. Maybe judge the deal over more than five minutes. Has had a s**t start but he’s shown far more at the Giants in a few roles.

McGovern was a complete failure. I won’t argue that.

If you think that’s the worst list management period ever then you really haven’t been paying much attention.

I have criticised some of Carlton’s picks in recent times and think if a pick like Dow was a success along with one or two others then things could be a bit different. But it’s far from the only issue. Every club blows picks. Every club has mediocre players getting games. Carlton’s issues run deeper than list management because the coaches simply can’t get results unless the top players on the list perform well. When your team is getting smoked defensively every game that is a clear indication of coaching and effort problems.

 

[PP34]

The point is spot on and I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks in this thread. Look at the backline of almost all top teams …. they are filled with rookies, late draft picks, pre-season draft selections etc…. they are obviously easy to find and develop. So utilising large chunks of salary cap and trading out high draft picks is just madness for flankers. Unless you’re getting a genuine star like Whitfield, but Williams and Saad are not at that level.

As for those mentioning Lever and May. They are outstanding DEFENDERS and Melbourne has the best defence in the competition. They are also not mid-sized flankers.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

It’s a stupid FoxFooty point and typical of them.

They are well aware of how modern footy works. Team defence revolves around the entire 18 man team. If things are breaking down further up the ground, the defence will struggle. Carlton’s forward pressure I would say is fairly average. The midfield enjoys getting belted at centre bounces and is awful at running both ways. Recipe for disaster. Geelong has a great team defence.

If it was about the back six only then Richmond would have suffered badly when Rance left. Instead they plug Balta in and continue to win. Balta is no Rance. But the immense defensive pressure elsewhere provides the defence with plenty of intercept opportunities. Same goes with Melbourne’s recent improvement.

Am I saying Carlton’s backline is perfect? Nope. It needs work. But that FoxFooty comparison is just garbage. Williams, Stocker and SPS have ended up back when they really shouldn’t. Totally dishonest as well to suggest Williams was brought in as a defender. I’d be staggered if the club doesn’t put him back in the middle.

Implying the club has put considerable high end picks and money into the defence is rubbish.

 

[One_Wing]

You are missing the main crux of the debate. Carlton have given up pick-8 and $1.4m of their salary cap to bring in Saad and Williams, which is crazy when you consider where top teams are securing majority of their backline talent:

Richmond backline:
Baker: 2017 rookie draft
Short: 2014 Rookie Draft
Houli: 2010 PSD
Grimes: 2009 PSD
Astbury : 2009 draft #35
Balta: 2017 draft #25
Vlastuin : 2012 draft #9
Broad; 2015 draft #67

Sydney:
Dawson: 2015 draft Pick #56
Lloyd: 2012 rookie draft
Rampe: 2013 draft pick #90
Melican: 2014 rookie draft
McCartin: 2017 draft #33

Dogs:
Cordy: 2014 draft #62
Crozier : Freo trade pick #40
Dale : 2014 draft #45
Daniel: 2014 draft #46
Duryea: traded for future 4th rounder
Keath: traded for equivalent of about #35
Wood : 2007 draft #43
Williams: 2015 draft #48


Port:
Amon: 2013 draft pick #68
Houston: 2015 Rookie draft
DBJ: 2013 draft pick #52
McKenzie: Delisted FA
Clurey: 2012 draft #29
Jonas: 2012 draft #85

Geelong:
Atkins : 2018 rookie draft
Henry: 2016 rookie draft
Stewart : 2016 draft pick #40
Blicavs: 2011 rookie draft
Kolodjashnij : 2013 draft #41
O’Connor : Category B rookie

And so on ……

So the point is not whether Saad or Williams can be good quality defenders…. They are both good players. But they are no better than majority of backline players mentioned above. They are better than some, worse than others.

But when it’s clearly shown to be easy to pick up defenders from any number of sources at low cost in terms of draft picks and trades, and low budget, giving up pick-8 and $1.4m for 2 x 26yo’s who are not elite players is not good list management when you see how the better teams have developed their backlines.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Now check the dees.....

 

[Daniltchenko You Beauty]

I have criticised some of Carlton’s picks in recent times and think if a pick like Dow was a success along with one or two others then things could be a bit different. But it’s far from the only issue. Every club blows picks. Every club has mediocre players getting games. Carlton’s issues run deeper than list management because the coaches simply can’t get results unless the top players on the list perform well. When your team is getting smoked defensively every game that is a clear indication of coaching and effort problems.

Carlton are still a mediocre team because their midfield is mediocre. That’s why they can compete with and beat bottom sides but lose to top eight teams.

Their top 20 picks from 16-18 was about building an elite midfield. Carlton took SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker. Walsh is a big tick, but they couldn’t stuff that pick up. The rest all look like busts. if you get an 3-4 competent midfielders out of that group, your midfield isn’t the shallow mess it is now. You also don’t need to chase guys like Williams on ridiculous money to fix the issue.

 

[PP34]

Carlton are still a mediocre team because their midfield is mediocre. That’s why they can compete with and beat bottom sides but lose to top eight teams.

Their top 20 picks from 16-18 was about building an elite midfield. Carlton took SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker. Walsh is a big tick, but they couldn’t stuff that pick up. The rest all look like busts. if you get an 3-4 competent midfielders out of that group, your midfield isn’t the shallow mess it is now. You also don’t need to chase guys like Williams on ridiculous money to fix the issue.

Stocker is a bust?

He’s played like 5 games and looked comfortable at AFL level. Far out.

 

[Soapy V]

Carlton are still a mediocre team because their midfield is mediocre. That’s why they can compete with and beat bottom sides but lose to top eight teams.

Their top 20 picks from 16-18 was about building an elite midfield. Carlton took SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker. Walsh is a big tick, but they couldn’t stuff that pick up. The rest all look like busts. if you get an 3-4 competent midfielders out of that group, your midfield isn’t the shallow mess it is now. You also don’t need to chase guys like Williams on ridiculous money to fix the issue.

Maybe stop playing Murphy & Curnow and back the future. A proper game plan would really help as well

I'm very confident on Stocker and we just need to give SPS Dow & O'Brien a run at it in a well drilled side

 

[La Dispute]

Langford and Laverde looked like busts a couple of years ago too. You have to give players time, and not all first rounders are going to become star players either.

Reckon Dow and LOB will end up cementing spots in the 22, but won’t necessarily go on to be dominant players.

Stocker will be a very good player though IMO. Has all the tools, and just needs exposure in the midfield. His general skills and game sense is fantastic.

 

[Soapy V]

Still boggled why they traded pick 8 for Saad.

Yet if the side was in a good position to play finals (which they believed) Saad would have been a very good recruit and still might be

Also, as discussed numerous times it was Pick 8 for Saad and Durdin. I am still very comfortable with that deal