When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Soapy V]

Cripps & Docherty are part of the problem, they need to be stood down and told to focus purely on their own games. Jones brings bugger all to the role and is not far away from finishing up.

Really disagree. They are both angry and frustrated by Teague.

I think Docherty will step aside for personal reasons and Cripps will be lone Captain and will finally get to lead his own side without Murphy Betts etc

Will make a massive difference

I have no doubt Cripps will be Capt next year and most likely supported by Weitering & Walsh

 

[La Dispute]

Cripps & Docherty are part of the problem, they need to be stood down and told to focus purely on their own games. Jones brings bugger all to the role and is not far away from finishing up.

Hardly, might not be captain material, but they are still well-respected clubmen and good leaders. Cripps is a salt-of-the-earth guy, but poorly spoken and a little immature. Docherty should never have been reinstated (for lack of a better word) after 2 ACL's.

Doesn't mean they can't contribute, but the baton needs to be handed next season for the captaincy and vice-captaincy.

 

[Chunky09]

Quite the opposite actually, he applies himself onfield in a kamikaze never-say-die manner that set him apart from many others.

He is the ideal DVC for us.

I didn’t mean his on field play, kid looks very talented.
I meant the fact he hasn’t even really established himself in the side yet, surely giving him that sort of responsibility is the type of stuff Carlton need to get away from.
Walsh definitely need he captain in waiting, probably the best young mid I can remember seeing in a long time, absolute jet

 

[blues4flag]

I didn’t mean his on field play, kid looks very talented.
I meant the fact he hasn’t even really established himself in the side yet, surely giving him that sort of responsibility is the type of stuff Carlton need to get away from.
Walsh definitely need he captain in waiting, probably the best young mid I can remember seeing in a long time, absolute jet

Far too early for Stocker to get a leadership gig but the kid has leader written all over him. He's the first to fly the flag for his teammates, he picks them up when they're down, makes an effort to get across and commend. He was the one to comfort JSOS after the Collingwood game. He comes across as a bit of a FIGJAM but I can't remember too many players that seem to care about their teammates as much as Stocker does.

 

[Ambrosia]

Are you just making stuff up now?
Where are you getting 11 from? I count 9 interstate games.
I don't have an issue playing Geelong at GMHBA. We beat them there last year. Also don't have an issue playing Freo in Perth. Beat them the last two times over there too.

Where did I mention Richmond in round 1?

After all the whinging about Essendon playing North twice Carlton go onto lose to them while Essendon get stuck with our second home game in a row interstate.

To suggest that the difference between the two sides this year is due to the draw is nonsensical.

 

[LordLucifer]

Far too early for Stocker to get a leadership gig but the kid has leader written all over him. He's the first to fly the flag for his teammates, he picks them up when they're down, makes an effort to get across and commend. He was the one to comfort JSOS after the Collingwood game. He comes across as a bit of a FIGJAM but I can't remember too many players that seem to care about their teammates as much as Stocker does.

Exactly !!!

 

[Daniltchenko You Beauty]

'When' implies that it will actually happen one day. That seems optimistic.

 

[Stottzy]

So Tom Morris said the review will be done this week, with Andrew Russell with the same amount of pressure as Teague to be gone. Unbelievable to think that one of the highest rated fitness gurus in the country a couple years ago, would even be considered to be sacked.

 

[PP34]

Honestly I’ve tried my best to back Teague in. He seems like a nice guy and I liked his approach early on.

But it’s clear he either just isn’t getting through to the players or tactically he is lacking.

Footy these days defensively is all about covering space and helping out when necessary. For whatever Carlton has far too many players who don’t do what is required defensively. I’m not even sure if it’s an effort thing these days. I thought it might have been earlier this year. But since then have watched a number of players defensively and they simply either don’t get what Teague wants or think they can get away with not running with someone.

Down back Plowman and Jones constantly make poor decisions ending up in no mans land which leads to easy goals for opponents. Jones tries his arse off, so I can’t begrudge that but he has always had issue with being accountable. Plowman may play a thankless role and do some good things. But too often he floats around unsure whether to attack a contest or stick with his man with some shocking results as a result. The good teams don’t have guys doing this every week.

In the midfield Cripps simply isn’t what he was right now. I hope it is simply short term body related. He was never the quickest but he was always tackling hard and doing defensive stuff.

As a collective the midfield simply doesn’t lock on defensively. Don’t win enough clearances and like on Saturday, a team like North works out how to set up to have a player float at the back of a stoppage and work as a collective with quick hands etc to clear the ball.

The forwards are part of the problem too. On Saturday, Aaron Hall

43

Aaron Hall

Age

33

Ht

185cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.0

5star

K

11.8

4star

HB

7.2

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

3.3

5star

MG

268.3

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

8.9

4star

HB

6.0

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

268.3

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.6

5star

, Jack Ziebell

7

Jack Ziebell

Age

33

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.1

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

6.3

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

4.6

5star

MG

369.5

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.6

3star

MG

125.8

2star

D

16.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

3.0

5star

etc just lined up for uncontested possessions on the overlap all game.

I honestly don’t know what this team will amount to long term. But surely if someone can get them to switch on defensively they will see a fair bit of improvement.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

After all the whinging about Essendon playing North twice Carlton go onto lose to them while Essendon get stuck with our second home game in a row interstate.

To suggest that the difference between the two sides this year is due to the draw is nonsensical.

Was a 50/50 game with Harry playing. Then we replace the 204cm Coleman leader with a 180cm 13 gamer who was supposed to be out of the side managed.
We went into the game with 2 KPDs and a ruck, and Cripps playing full fwd on Ben McKay. Was always going to be tough to kick a winning score under those conditions.
I still think we're better than our results and had a tough draw at the start of the season which can set up your whole year, but it is what it is.
Essendon are higher, Carlton are lower. Don't think either are playing finals. Who has the better future from here can depend on lot's of factors.
I'm a bit over the pissing contests and that someone always has to be better off than the other. It's draining.
Best of luck.

 

[Donnini]

I'll give it a go, I'm sure there will be some of my Blue brethren who will vehemently disagree.

Ed Curnow - tagger, about to retire (B)
Marc Murphy - about to retire (C+)
Mathew Cottrell - should be delisted (Z-)
Michael Gibbons - struggles as a mid (C)
Sam Petrevski-Seton - has not been played in position (C)
Will Setterfield - a major disappointment thus far (C)
Brodie Kemp - still being developed from defence to mid (unknown)
Liam Stocker - a mid as a junior, about to move from defence soon (B-)
Mathew Kennedy - has some flaws but doesn't muck around (C+)
Paddy Dow - finally showing glimpses of what he may become (C+)
Patrick Cripps - since the big brownlow year, has not been half the player (B+)
Sam Walsh - a bone fide star and should be made captain (A++++)
Jack Carroll - yet to debut (unknown)

There are other players on the list who masquerade as mids occasionally and our supporters think they are mids too but the simple fact is, they aren't and never will be nothing more than thrown in there to pinch-hit for a quarter in extreme circumstances.

Ed Curnow - great effort and had some great season pre 2020 (C+)
Marc Murphy - Club has given him a contract out of loyalty and respect (C-)
Matthew Cottrell - is a young rookie busting a gut (D+)
Michael Gibbons - has good work rate with questionable decision making but overall a good honest player (C+)
SPS - pea hearted and no weapons (D)
Setterfield - pea hearted and no weapons (D)
Kemp - barely out of his teens (NA)
Stocker - tough little player with a good ceiling ( B-)
Kennedy - Needs things to go his way or goes missing ( C-)
Dow - Very good youngster in contested situations defensive effort and effort overall leaves alot to be desired ( C-)
Cripps - Not what he has but carrying niggles - plyer like that you look at his 3-5 year impact ( B+)
Walsh - Unbelievable talent ( A+)
Carroll - Progressing nicely as an 18 year old (NA)

 

[Noidnadroj]

I doubt those figures are accurate

I actually erred on the side of unders. Who do you believe is on less than these estimates? If they are then it wouldn’t be much either way.


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[PP34]

How is this any different to removing Wayne Brittain for Denis Pagan? Or Brett Ratten for Mick Malthouse? Careful what you wish for.

All that did was mask your problems and settle the natives for a while. Looks like you're on track to do it again. Carlton's issues are far greater than whoever is the senior coach.

I agree that coaches aren’t the be all and end all.

However anyone who has paid any sort of attention to the team this year would see there are clear issues tactically and with getting players to do the necessary things on field.

When you watch North Melbourne waltz into their 50 because they are allowed to run up the ground for handball receives with little pressure then clearly something is going horribly wrong with the messages to the players. Either Teague is not getting through or is tactically challenged.

Since he has come on board, Walsh, Weitering and McKay are the only ones to really start flourishing and I’d argue all 3 already well on the way anyway. He has generated very little improvement out of anyone else.

The club either has to back him in and put him down the path of strong individual development with strong assistants around. Or they simply decide he is not up to it.

I agree Carlton’s issues always run deeper than the coach. But there are some players to work with right now. A good coach should be able to get this team being far harder to score against.

 

[Billys Back]

So Tom Morris said the review will be done this week, with Andrew Russell with the same amount of pressure as Teague to be gone. Unbelievable to think that one of the highest rated fitness gurus in the country a couple years ago, would even be considered to be sacked.

A bit like when the guru David Buttifant left Collingwood to follow Malthouse to Carlton. You have to wonder......

 

[Soapy V]

Teague is just one part. Lloyd will go as well. It’s a football department issue

Major change in culture and standards needed

 

[Ambrosia]

Was a 50/50 game with Harry playing. Then we replace the 204cm Coleman leader with a 180cm 13 gamer who was supposed to be out of the side managed.
We went into the game with 2 KPDs and a ruck, and Cripps playing full fwd on Ben McKay. Was always going to be tough to kick a winning score under those conditions.
I still think we're better than our results and had a tough draw at the start of the season which can set up your whole year, but it is what it is.
Essendon are higher, Carlton are lower. Don't think either are playing finals. Who has the better future from here can depend on lot's of factors.
I'm a bit over the pissing contests and that someone always has to be better off than the other. It's draining.
Best of luck.

If you’ve read my posts in this thread I’m clearly in agreeance (is that a word) with you that there is very little between Essendon and Carlton. Essendon have performed better this year but in the scheme of things that means nothing at this end of the ladder.

My point is that all the Carlton supporters pointing to Essendon’s draw saying if only we had that we’d be higher on the ladder are kidding themselves imho.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Teague is just one part. Lloyd will go as well. It’s a football department issue

Major change in culture and standards needed

This. Need a change in attitude and needs to be driven off field 1st and more most.
Amongst other coaches, I also want Liddle gone. He's hands are all over the football departments failures.

 

[nineteen eighty]

I think the biggest conundrum is going to be, if some of Carlton’s youngsters showing promise do improve under a new coach to the point of Carlton making finals, what happens in 12-18 months when it comes time to pay them significantly higher salaries? So much money is tied up for so long in mid-range players I’m not sure how the list build required to contend eventuates?

Let’s say improvement comes next season, then in 2023 there’s:
Saad : $600k
C. Curnow : $700k
McKay: $800k
Martin: $400k
Weitering: $750k
McGovern: $800k
Cripps: $850k
Docherty: $600k
Williams: $800k

That’s approx $6.2m of salary cap on 9 players. And assuming Walsh extends that’s $7m on 10 players in 2023. That leaves $6.4m for 28 other players = $228,000.

So how does Carlton attract the necessary quality to contend? Or how do they pay young players establishing strong careers (maybe Stocker, Dow..?) what they need to stay?

Fortunately by 2024 McGovern is gone and Docherty on reduced wages or retired. And who knows with C. Curnow who is out of contract post 2023. So there might be some significant savings 2024 onwards, but Carlton will have to backend a lot of deals post 2023 and cross their fingers they’ve got the list in place already to contend.



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Topical given recent media reports on the Blues chasing Cerra:

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

 

[Soapy V]

This. Need a change in attitude and needs to be driven off field 1st and more most.
Amongst other coaches, I also want Liddle gone. He's hands are all over the football departments failures.

I wouldn't be surprised if review shows Liddle needs to keep out of football matters and concentrate off field which is his skill.

So important to get a strong Head of Football that keeps it all under control. Just as important if not more than Senior Coaching role

Liddle's backing of Teague and the damage it has done has been a disgrace. The overriding and diminishing of Russell's role has been a major issue

 

[Soapy V]

Topical given recent media reports on the Blues chasing Cerra:

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

We aren't getting Cerra. Our focus will be on the draft and a couple of role players

 

[La Dispute]

Topical given recent media reports on the Blues chasing Cerra:

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

Doesn’t sound like anything substantial.

Club is deciding if it wants to up it’s offer, which is pretty stock standard.

It sounds like Cerra is leaning towards leaving in any case.

 

[btdg]

If you’ve read my posts in this thread I’m clearly in agreeance (is that a word) with you that there is very little between Essendon and Carlton. Essendon have performed better this year but in the scheme of things that means nothing at this end of the ladder.

My point is that all the Carlton supporters pointing to Essendon’s draw saying if only we had that we’d be higher on the ladder are kidding themselves imho.

I actually think you are underselling Essendon a little here.

On paper, there isn't a huge amount between the teams. Carlton are where Essendon were last year IMO - put together a reasonable young list, added some expensive recruits, expected to jump up, realised more of a transition/adjustment was needed and had a bad year. Both Essendon last year and Carlton this year suffered from having injuries to key structural players, particularly in the forward line.

This year: Carlton would be ahead of Essendon had we not had absolute turd efforts against Collingwood in rd 2 and North last week. But... every team has bad losses over the course of the year and Essendon can point to a couple of howlers too.

A far bigger problem for Carlton is - what is our best win? Which game did it all come together and click, and get everyone excited? We beat Essendon and Freo (twice) in consistent but uninspiring efforts. Otherwise we have lost every game against top 8 teams, and pretty much all of them were 20ish point losses. Not many horrid games there, but also nothing inspiring at all.

At least 2020 Carlton had a win over Geelong and belted the Bulldogs. In other matches we had a string of games where we conceded 5+ goals in a run against good teams, but also and imoportantly, controlled and dominated the game in patches. It looked like a team that was developing and growing, and just needed consistency.

This year, Carlton are rudderless, with no clear understanding of how to win. Injuries might be a factor. It's clear Teague wanted to run and attack with multiple big targets, and not once has he had the four pronged attack I think he wants (McKay + two of Curnow/Casboult/McGovern/McDonald + Martin/JSOS as a mobile target).

Essendon on the other hand - there's clear spirit, structure and excitement. IT's a team with gaps, but who know what to do to win, and who will try and do it every week. Some good losses. Some other games where the opposition has shut it down, or the cattle isn't quite there, but at least a genuine sense of purpose.

 

[Ambrosia]

I actually think you are underselling Essendon a little here.

On paper, there isn't a huge amount between the teams. Carlton are where Essendon were last year IMO - put together a reasonable young list, added some expensive recruits, expected to jump up, realised more of a transition/adjustment was needed and had a bad year. Both Essendon last year and Carlton this year suffered from having injuries to key structural players, particularly in the forward line.

This year: Carlton would be ahead of Essendon had we not had absolute turd efforts against Collingwood in rd 2 and North last week. But... every team has bad losses over the course of the year and Essendon can point to a couple of howlers too.

A far bigger problem for Carlton is - what is our best win? Which game did it all come together and click, and get everyone excited? We beat Essendon and Freo (twice) in consistent but uninspiring efforts. Otherwise we have lost every game against top 8 teams, and pretty much all of them were 20ish point losses. Not many horrid games there, but also nothing inspiring at all.

At least 2020 Carlton had a win over Geelong and belted the Bulldogs. In other matches we had a string of games where we conceded 5+ goals in a run against good teams, but also and imoportantly, controlled and dominated the game in patches. It looked like a team that was developing and growing, and just needed consistency.

This year, Carlton are rudderless, with no clear understanding of how to win. Injuries might be a factor. It's clear Teague wanted to run and attack with multiple big targets, and not once has he had the four pronged attack I think he wants (McKay + two of Curnow/Casboult/McGovern/McDonald + Martin/JSOS as a mobile target).

Essendon on the other hand - there's clear spirit, structure and excitement. IT's a team with gaps, but who know what to do to win, and who will try and do it every week. Some good losses. Some other games where the opposition has shut it down, or the cattle isn't quite there, but at least a genuine sense of purpose.

Yeah I see your point. I still think Essendon has a lot more to get right and the fact we have done better than expected this year has papered over some obvious problems. My point was Essendon and Carlton are currently so far from success that Essendon’s slight lead this season means very little.

Both Essendon and Carlton will be hoping to take a big step forward next year off the back of youngsters improving and better injury runs. I’d say Carlton have the higher upside given what could happen if guys like Cripps and Curnow come in and get back to their best footy. Essendon probably have less downside though given McGrath and Shiel will be big inclusions who have been durable consistent players throughout their careers.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

My point is that all the Carlton supporters pointing to Essendon’s draw saying if only we had that we’d be higher on the ladder are kidding themselves imho.

Disagree, but don't want to labour the point and go around in circles.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Topical given recent media reports on the Blues chasing Cerra:

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

Carlton had to have known Cerra was a chance to return to Vic before committing $1.4m and pick-8 to get Williams and Saad. And they 100% knew before committing $900k to Cripps. I don’t know if Cerra will end up remaining a B+ player or will get to A-grade or elite? But he’s a midfielder and he’s 22yo.


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