Analysis Where are we actually at as a club?

[WRFL Indentity]

Fair enough but I honestly don’t think watching anymore footy than necessary is needed. If that was the case there would be heaps of footballers watching local footy. Some certainly do because they are mates of players. Luke Breust has been at our games at least twice watching Matt suckling. Not sure he actually watching the footy though. I honestly don’t think things outside of the club will help the players. We need to fix up inside.

In most cases, you're probably right that a player doesn't need to watch more footy.

100% agree inside needs fixing.

 

[DarkSaint]

All players have faults. The ones I would keep are the ones that drive standards and actually show real leadership on the field. Most of our players mentioned don't and have more than enough time to stand up in these areas as we have been crying out for this since Roo and Co left.

 

[plugger66]

All players have faults. The ones I would keep are the ones that drive standards and actually show real leadership on the field. Most of our players mentioned don't and have more than enough time to stand up in these areas as we have been crying out for this since Roo and Co left.

So get rid of most?

 

[DarkSaint]

So get rid of most?

Correct. There are around 12 players that we should look to be moving on next year whether it is through delisting or trades that will not be taking us further.

 

[plugger66]

Correct. There are around 12 players that we should look to be moving on next year whether it is through delisting or trades that will not be taking us further.

Probably more but you simply can’t get rid of anymore than 10. Even that is probably to many.

 

[DarkSaint]

Probably more but you simply can’t get rid of anymore than 10. Even that is probably to many.

This club can go 2 ways, continue to reward and keep Medicore players that have had more than enough time and don't offer substantial leadership and culture change. Or Bite the bullet and trade in young players and or experienced leaders.

 

[gringo2011]

This club can go 2 ways, continue to reward and keep Medicore players that have had more than enough time and don't offer substantial leadership and culture change. Or Bite the bullet and trade in young players and or experienced leaders.

There are only a handful left from 3 years ago. You can't just keep churning. We need to settle on a core group and bring through the youth that will push them out naturally. Part of our issue is depth and lack of top end quality, it sounds good to get rid of the mediocrity and replace them but we have 1 good pick in the draft and we will have some academy kids that will eat into next years picks. It's not like you move out Billings or Ross and find an immediate upgrade. Ideally you develop kids that push those guys out to become the missing depth.

 

[plugger66]

This club can go 2 ways, continue to reward and keep Medicore players that have had more than enough time and don't offer substantial leadership and culture change. Or Bite the bullet and trade in young players and or experienced leaders.

They aren’t the only 2 choices. You can trade and delist without getting rid of 12 players. We have bitten the bullet before and that didn’t work. And we really wouldn’t have a clue what some players are like within the club. I’d suggest no way they should change the list by more than 8 to 10 players. This idea that people think you can’t have mediocre players on the list is just wrong. It just depends if the mediocre players provide depth in positions we are short or they can improve. Clav is mediocre but we need tall depth so he would stay for example I’d say where as lonie or kent most likely won’t be required as small forwards. Also we are likely to recruit a mediocre ruckman as back up if they get rid of hunter and mckernan.

 

[Sully111]

Effort is a thing. It seems everyone is happy to judge a players performance when they don't put enough effort in.

Skills are a thing too... but players seem to get a pass on that if they show effort.

We need players with both if we're going to win a flag.

I'm tired of watching players like seb give hospital handballs or just butcher the ball. I don't care how hard he tries. He kills our momentum time and time again. His football IQ and decision making just don't cut it.

Or Billings missing relatively easy shots on goal. We need guys who can stand up under pressure and deliver.

Skills cost us games.... not just effort. Afl footy requires both.

 

[plugger66]

Effort is a thing. It seems everyone is happy to judge a players performance when they don't put enough effort in.

Skills are a thing too... but players seem to get a pass on that if they show effort.

We need players with both if we're going to win a flag.

I'm tired of watching players like seb give hospital handballs or just butcher the ball. I don't care how hard he tries. He kills our momentum time and time again. His football IQ and decision making just don't cut it.

Or Billings missing relatively easy shots on goal. We need guys who can stand up under pressure and deliver.

Skills cost us games.... not just effort. Afl footy requires both.

I love it when the same people have a go at the same players. If it was only that simple. When really it’s just simple thinking. Billings may miss a few shots at goal but if we are talking skill he would be in front of most.

 

[Mowman]

Effort is a thing. It seems everyone is happy to judge a players performance when they don't put enough effort in.

Skills are a thing too... but players seem to get a pass on that if they show effort.

We need players with both if we're going to win a flag.

I'm tired of watching players like seb give hospital handballs or just butcher the ball. I don't care how hard he tries. He kills our momentum time and time again. His football IQ and decision making just don't cut it.

Or Billings missing relatively easy shots on goal. We need guys who can stand up under pressure and deliver.

Skills cost us games.... not just effort. Afl footy requires both.

Its not just his goal kicking

He has been offered a new deal – as has fellow free agent Seb Ross – but in a diabolical loss to Carlton, Billings had 19 touches at 45 per cent efficiency and his only tackle in three weeks.

 

[plugger66]

Its not just his goal kicking

He has been offered a new deal – as has fellow free agent Seb Ross – but in a diabolical loss to Carlton, Billings had 19 touches at 45 per cent efficiency and his only tackle in three weeks.

His foot is stuffed. It’s not that hard to work out based on his career. His field kicking has always been good. Luckily the club know how much it’s effected him so they want to keep him. Others obviously work on a few games at a time. No wonder they want so many changes and then all of a sudden they are happy when we are winning.

 

[saintsmania]

Great thread thanks George..it's great to finally share our views on where we think we can improve..the list has a few glaring holes mainly around a KPD who will come in to support Dougs and Wilkie with Highmore being the interceptor..controversial and it's too early but Coff needs to evolve into another role..most likely a tall mid who can play both inside/outside..my main issue is selection integrity and Ratts need to be ruthless in making team selections. We need to move on guys that have been around for a while but won't take us to that next level and if that means moving on 2 out of Billings, Dunstan and Ross then so be it. Will give us some extra picks to draft in the NGA kids if a bid comes early or else draft the best option available. We have the core in King, Marshall, Steele, Clark, Dougs, Wilkie, Gresham, Paton to name a few and youngsters in Byrnes, Connolly etc. that we can further build our list around.

 

[Leigh58]

Where are we actually at you ask? Linton Street, Moorabbin

Where are we actually at as a club?
Who knows how we will go in 2022?

In season 2021 IMO, it depends on which St Kilda turns up on a given occasion. We seem to be wholly committed on some occasions or lack passion & interest at times, or even panic on the big stage etc.

Who knows which St Kilda will turn up? Where will we actually be at?

Players, coaches etc are highly important.

Preparation for each match is always important IMO.
Round 2 this year for example was our first home game, to hopefully set up the season in an timely manner.

The players preparation immediately before the game related to Danny Frawley, mental health & looking out for your mates. Enormously important focus.

Common sense however dictates that such a focus at that time (just before the bounce), could have brought back memories & emotions that are difficult and even traumatising for some players.

This sounds harsh but focusing on this a minute or two before the game would probably not help you win a game of footy, or defeat the demons on that night.

In a respectful manner, mental health issues need our focus. At a different time and in a different forum however please!

 

[MeSaint]

It's actually the complete opposite, it's been shown time and time again that players don't do anything when they go to another club and that is true of most football clubs. You can obviously point to Hind, Cripps and Lynch but I can point to Weller, Newnes, McCartin, Acres, Minchington, Parker and whoever else. 80% of the players we delist or move on don't do anything at another club or don't even get picked up at all. McEvoy is a different kettle of fish - we didn't want to move him on, we had to.

The problem is definitely our players - we have a real lack of depth beyond our best side. We have had to rely on those players far too often this year and the results speak for themselves.

I know the club won't do it but if it were plausible I could name 15 players we could move on at years end and I think we'd be better placed if we filled them with youth. Obviously we can't make those kinds of calls in one season, but you get the idea. There's over a dozen at the club not up to it. We need to get that number down to about half a dozen before we push back up the ladder. Injuries will happen of course, so we need at least 30-35 players who can play.

Coffield has been spoken about here as trade bait, I wouldn't consider moving him on personally. He is a really talented footballer and we need to persist with him.

Carlisle, Ross, Dunstan, Hannebery, Lonie, Geary, Roberton (will be off books at seasons end), Long, Frawley, Kent, McKernan, Wood, McKenzie (although having a career year), Clavarino, Joyce, Hunter and Alabakis are all expendable. That's 17 players and I reckon a dozen of those should be delisted. Almost half the list is depth or trade bait.

I think the most amount of moves we could make in a season is probably near on 10, so I would look at positional needs and then get rid of 10 of those listed above. End of 2022 we clear out the rest of the deadwood and 2023 we begin to seriously challenge - and that's only if we get the drafting and potential trading right. In saying that I think we will bounce back next year and make the eight - we can't possibly have the injury run we've had this year next year, and I think we could remain 13th and in doing so get the easier draw.

I'm starting to warm to the notion that we need to move on the group that came through in the mid 10's. Those that came through in the first few years under Richardson.

One thing though is that I wouldn't trade or move them on if we didn't get anyone of better quality back. If we replace C grade with C grade we go nowhere so I would just keep them if that were the case. But the next 24 months are crucial to how we continue to build.

Verbose response which was not unexpected.

For every player you can cherry pick, I can pick one as well. But I won't get into tit for tat with people.

Let's move onto player development, if you consider our development of our youth as good as other clubs. I'd say that our youth development has been not been in the top 12 of clubs over the last decade. Yes it's been better than the Suns but far from the Western Bulldogs.

I've got my letters from Matt Finnis, Andrew Basset etc apologizing for the state of the club and lack of success. But we are back on track for premiership on 2019 or 2022 or whatever year the next apology letter will say.

Sport isn't corporate life, you can't choose a premiership year as simply as a profit year by writing off a few assets to increase your profit. This type of goal setting in sport is gibberish.

Don't apologize to me, I know you guys are doing your best ... just do better. If you can't, get someone who can.

 

[austinnn]

It's actually the complete opposite, it's been shown time and time again that players don't do anything when they go to another club and that is true of most football clubs. You can obviously point to Hind, Cripps and Lynch but I can point to Weller, Newnes, McCartin, Acres, Minchington, Parker and whoever else. 80% of the players we delist or move on don't do anything at another club or don't even get picked up at all. McEvoy is a different kettle of fish - we didn't want to move him on, we had to.

The problem is definitely our players - we have a real lack of depth beyond our best side. We have had to rely on those players far too often this year and the results speak for themselves.

I know the club won't do it but if it were plausible I could name 15 players we could move on at years end and I think we'd be better placed if we filled them with youth. Obviously we can't make those kinds of calls in one season, but you get the idea. There's over a dozen at the club not up to it. We need to get that number down to about half a dozen before we push back up the ladder. Injuries will happen of course, so we need at least 30-35 players who can play.

Coffield has been spoken about here as trade bait, I wouldn't consider moving him on personally. He is a really talented footballer and we need to persist with him.

Carlisle, Ross, Dunstan, Hannebery, Lonie, Geary, Roberton (will be off books at seasons end), Long, Frawley, Kent, McKernan, Wood, McKenzie (although having a career year), Clavarino, Joyce, Hunter and Alabakis are all expendable. That's 17 players and I reckon a dozen of those should be delisted. Almost half the list is depth or trade bait.

I think the most amount of moves we could make in a season is probably near on 10, so I would look at positional needs and then get rid of 10 of those listed above. End of 2022 we clear out the rest of the deadwood and 2023 we begin to seriously challenge - and that's only if we get the drafting and potential trading right. In saying that I think we will bounce back next year and make the eight - we can't possibly have the injury run we've had this year next year, and I think we could remain 13th and in doing so get the easier draw.

I'm starting to warm to the notion that we need to move on the group that came through in the mid 10's. Those that came through in the first few years under Richardson.

One thing though is that I wouldn't trade or move them on if we didn't get anyone of better quality back. If we replace C grade with C grade we go nowhere so I would just keep them if that were the case. But the next 24 months are crucial to how we continue to build.

I agree and without wishing to get into an argument, to say that most players we delist or trade out go on to better their footy career is quite strange. It's happened for a tiny percentage of players.

As for Billings Ross and other Richo era signings, I feel it's sad that we misdeveloped them, but the past can't be changed and I don't think the damage can be mitigated by just accepting our fate.

The crucial consideration here is culture and how those players contribute to it. They are obviously fastidious and dedicated trainers in terms of fitness. I'm guessing this is the key reason why they are in the leadership group. They are model citizens; sensible, thoughtful and well-balanced. As players they are selfless onfield and apparently easy to coach. So what's the problem?

They are good support players, the definition of GOP, (and how on earth was our previous list manager allowed to fill our squad up with GOPs?), and one common suggestion has been to simply cut all the dead weight below them and fill the squad up with the gun players who will then go on to supercede them - easy!

The problem is that they are senior figures at the club, well respected and given the title of leaders, so their influence on that younger developing playing group cannot be discounted. Younger players learn from their actions - and crucially in this case lack of action - and so they start to play like them too, a considered, uncommitted, introverted, inconsistent unhungry dirt-free style of playing which has got us precisely nowhere.

As we see the Battles and Coffields of this team start to lose their edges and become the Billings and Ross of tomorrow, it's worth considering why we don't have any young leaders coming through. People talk about Byrnes, a 2nd year player with under 20 games under his belt but how long before his spark is also allowed to fade to a steady cool blue flame?

Hanneberry is a vocal leader whose influence is minimised by injuries, and if it is true that his confronting style isn't universally popular at the club, then that's a real red flag because that is EXACTLY what is needed IMO. Steele is at heart an introvert who is developing his leadership as he goes but needs better support than the members of the Crossword Club.

We need chest thumping lions out there for our youngsters to look up to and emulate. There is promise in our youth but they need to stand up and claim their leadership roles and while those nice respectable men are ahead of them they cannot without ruffling feathers. Yes, a true leader would ruffle feathers to do what is necessary but a young player with a career ahead of them with the same group of teammates and staff might think twice and bide their time.

TLR - despite the good qualities of these senior players, they need to be sacrificed to change the "acceptable" culture at our club

 

[gringo2011]

I agree and without wishing to get into an argument, to say that most players we delist or trade out go on to better their footy career is quite strange. It's happened for a tiny percentage of players.

As for Billings Ross and other Richo era signings, I feel it's sad that we misdeveloped them, but the past can't be changed and I don't think the damage can be mitigated by just accepting our fate.

The crucial consideration here is culture and how those players contribute to it. They are obviously fastidious and dedicated trainers in terms of fitness. I'm guessing this is the key reason why they are in the leadership group. They are model citizens; sensible, thoughtful and well-balanced. As players they are selfless onfield and apparently easy to coach. So what's the problem?

They are good support players, the definition of GOP, (and how on earth was our previous list manager allowed to fill our squad up with GOPs?), and one common suggestion has been to simply cut all the dead weight below them and fill the squad up with the gun players who will then go on to supercede them - easy!

The problem is that they are senior figures at the club, well respected and given the title of leaders, so their influence on that younger developing playing group cannot be discounted. Younger players learn from their actions - and crucially in this case lack of action - and so they start to play like them too, a considered, uncommitted, introverted, inconsistent unhungry dirt-free style of playing which has got us precisely nowhere.

As we see the Battles and Coffields of this team start to lose their edges and become the Billings and Ross of tomorrow, it's worth considering why we don't have any young leaders coming through. People talk about Byrnes, a 2nd year player with under 20 games under his belt but how long before his spark is also allowed to fade to a steady cool blue flame?

Hanneberry is a vocal leader whose influence is minimised by injuries, and if it is true that his confronting style isn't universally popular at the club, then that's a real red flag because that is EXACTLY what is needed IMO. Steele is at heart an introvert who is developing his leadership as he goes but needs better support than the members of the Crossword Club.

We need chest thumping lions out there for our youngsters to look up to and emulate. There is promise in our youth but they need to stand up and claim their leadership roles and while those nice respectable men are ahead of them they cannot without ruffling feathers. Yes, a true leader would ruffle feathers to do what is necessary but a young player with a career ahead of them with the same group of teammates and staff might think twice and bide their time.

TLR - despite the good qualities of these senior players, they need to be sacrificed to change the "acceptable" culture at our club

It sounds like a recipe for a bottom out rebuild to me. We couldn't manage to be competitive with one or two experienced players out. That's like burning the house down because it's not as nice as the neighbours. We have a deficit because we deliberately didn't chase anyone but nice guys with passive personalities. We need more talent not less.

 

[George]

Verbose response which was not unexpected.

For every player you can cherry pick, I can pick one as well. But I won't get into tit for tat with people.

Let's move onto player development, if you consider our development of our youth as good as other clubs. I'd say that our youth development has been not been in the top 12 of clubs over the last decade. Yes it's been better than the Suns but far from the Western Bulldogs.

I've got my letters from Matt Finnis, Andrew Basset etc apologizing for the state of the club and lack of success. But we are back on track for premiership on 2019 or 2022 or whatever year the next apology letter will say.

Sport isn't corporate life, you can't choose a premiership year as simply as a profit year by writing off a few assets to increase your profit. This type of goal setting in sport is gibberish.

Don't apologize to me, I know you guys are doing your best ... just do better. If you can't, get someone who can.

The rest of your post is absolutely fine, I agree with it, but don't trail off topic in regards to what you originally said. Name the players that have done better elsewhere? You called it a verbose response - I simply disagreed with you and gave you examples as to why.

 

[MeSaint]

The rest of your post is absolutely fine, I agree with it, but don't trail off topic in regards to what you originally said. Name the players that have done better elsewhere? You called it a verbose response - I simply disagreed with you and gave you examples as to why.

Fair enough...

It's at the point of their careers that we let go of them that you need to look at. The players you mentioned who have "not" gone on at other clubs:

Weller - End of his career - Richo got him the extra year at Richmond
Newnes - Mid-End Career - I would argue that Carlton are happy with him
McCartin - End of Career - Should never have been given another go anywhere
Acres - Mid Career - You are probably correct
Minchington - At the end of his career
Parker - Was lucky to be on our list and lucky to be on Richmonds

Players which I have considered who have gone on:

Hickey - Start of career - One of the best ruckman I have seen, destroyed by the Longer policy
Bruce - Mid-End Career - Solid but useful
Hind - Start of Career - Fastest player on our list
McEvoy - Start of Career - Captain potential - traded - we didn't have to move him on as you suggested
Stanley - Start of Career - Still on a premiership list
Cripps - Start of Career - How many premierships has he got?
Lynch - Start of Career - He's even surprised me.

 

[St Kilda Death]

 

[George]

Fair enough...

It's at the point of their careers that we let go of them that you need to look at. The players you mentioned who have "not" gone on at other clubs:

Weller - End of his career - Richo got him the extra year at Richmond
Newnes - Mid-End Career - I would argue that Carlton are happy with him
McCartin - End of Career - Should never have been given another go anywhere
Acres - Mid Career - You are probably correct
Minchington - At the end of his career
Parker - Was lucky to be on our list and lucky to be on Richmonds

Players which I have considered who have gone on:

Hickey - Start of career - One of the best ruckman I have seen, destroyed by the Longer policy
Bruce - Mid-End Career - Solid but useful
Hind - Start of Career - Fastest player on our list
McEvoy - Start of Career - Captain potential - traded - we didn't have to move him on as you suggested
Stanley - Start of Career - Still on a premiership list
Cripps - Start of Career - How many premierships has he got?
Lynch - Start of Career - He's even surprised me.

Interesting view. I would suggest almost all of them were at the beginning or middle of their careers. End of career would suggest to me that they are in their 30's at least.

Weller was 26
Newnes was 26
McCartin was 23
Acres was 24
Minchington was 25
Parker was 24

You can make excuses for them to prove your point I guess but the fact is we got rid of these players and they went on to do nothing at other clubs.

Others we have moved on that did nothing elsewhere;

Ryan Abbott
Sam Rowe
Doulton Langlands
Robbie Young
Jonathon Marsh
Nathan Freeman
Logan Austin
Bailey Rice
Ed Phillips
Brandon White
Lewis Pierce
Jason Holmes
Hugh Goddard
Spencer White
Billy Longer
Eli Templeton
Shane Savage
Luke Delaney
Cam Shenton
Tom Curren
Jackson Ferguson
Josh Saunders
Brodie Murdoch
Nathan Wright
Tom Lee
Trent Dennis-Lane

I'll stop there because we went as far as Paddy McCartin so those are the players that we brought in since that time.

I just think it's illogical to make a statement like yours (time and time again we let players go and they excel). It's the opposite. And that's true for most clubs. You generally don't delist players that you see something in.

It's not our delisting strategy that is an issue it's just that we have to improve the list between spots 25-40 with better depth - youth or otherwise.

 

[MeSaint]

Interesting view. I would suggest almost all of them were at the beginning or middle of their careers. End of career would suggest to me that they are in their 30's at least.

Weller was 26
Newnes was 26
McCartin was 23
Acres was 24
Minchington was 25
Parker was 24

You can make excuses for them to prove your point I guess but the fact is we got rid of these players and they went on to do nothing at other clubs.

Others we have moved on that did nothing elsewhere;

Ryan Abbott
Sam Rowe
Doulton Langlands
Robbie Young
Jonathon Marsh
Nathan Freeman
Logan Austin
Bailey Rice
Ed Phillips
Brandon White
Lewis Pierce
Jason Holmes
Hugh Goddard
Spencer White
Billy Longer
Eli Templeton
Shane Savage
Luke Delaney
Cam Shenton
Tom Curren
Jackson Ferguson
Josh Saunders
Brodie Murdoch
Nathan Wright
Tom Lee
Trent Dennis-Lane

I'll stop there because we went as far as Paddy McCartin so those are the players that we brought in since that time.

I just think it's illogical to make a statement like yours (time and time again we let players go and they excel). It's the opposite. And that's true for most clubs. You generally don't delist players that you see something in.

It's not our delisting strategy that is an issue it's just that we have to improve the list between spots 25-40 with better depth - youth or otherwise.

What a load of codsbobble....

You actually asked me to expand on the point about St Kilda players that are playing for other clubs.

Your initial post addressed my point for the first paragraph then went on about depth...

 

[plugger66]

Verbose response which was not unexpected.

For every player you can cherry pick, I can pick one as well. But I won't get into tit for tat with people.

Let's move onto player development, if you consider our development of our youth as good as other clubs. I'd say that our youth development has been not been in the top 12 of clubs over the last decade. Yes it's been better than the Suns but far from the Western Bulldogs.

I've got my letters from Matt Finnis, Andrew Basset etc apologizing for the state of the club and lack of success. But we are back on track for premiership on 2019 or 2022 or whatever year the next apology letter will say.

Sport isn't corporate life, you can't choose a premiership year as simply as a profit year by writing off a few assets to increase your profit. This type of goal setting in sport is gibberish.

Don't apologize to me, I know you guys are doing your best ... just do better. If you can't, get someone who can.

What does most of that even mean?

 

[plugger66]

It sounds like a recipe for a bottom out rebuild to me. We couldn't manage to be competitive with one or two experienced players out. That's like burning the house down because it's not as nice as the neighbours. We have a deficit because we deliberately didn't chase anyone but nice guys with passive personalities. We need more talent not less.

Agree with most of that but just because you and others say we chased nice guys all the time doesn’t make it true. I’d say they picked the guys who they thought were the best players or who suited our side.

 

[MeSaint]

What does most of that even mean?

Not sure mate, what do you mean