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- #226
You dont think winning group 1s is an indicator of any value?
Racing Where does Winx now sit in Hall of fame
- Thread starter Gavin Excell
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- #227
When you do them properly they are not flawed at all. They have their limitations but done correctly they are the most accurate way of measuring performances.
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- #228
I wasn't aware I said that. Could it be you're misquoting me?
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i have never used them, i did it the hard way and watched every single race.. over and over back in the day and could map most races in my head. (in those days races werent rigged by jockeys managers either).There was a time where you could name any horse in Australia and i could tell you its breeding, trainer, best distances, racing pattern and limitations off the top of my head. That was pre 2000, that edge was taken away from me (the internet and old age loss of memory!)
Anyway, i get that it is an accurate measure of peformance on the day, Hong Kong would be perfect for using ratings because its the same horses over and over on 2 tracks, but when rating thousands of horses over hundreds of tracks you cannot accurately rate a race in 2017 and 1996
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- #230
Yes you can.
I can tell you, accurately, that Sunline and Northerly would not have won a Cox plate between them had Winx been in those races, for example.
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explain away (i dont rate Sunline by the way , Northerly is a different story)
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- #232
Her 2016 performance is about 3L better than their best.
They were both great horses and both champions but they weren't at her level.
Takeover Target was a champion too but he wouldn't have kept up with black caviar. Joe Janiak even conceded same. They're next level BC and Winx.
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- #233
Possibly. Or deliberately misinterpreting.
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- #234
Is there an argument that ratings are biased towards modern achievememts given improvements in diets, preparation etc?
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No a fit and well horse is a fit and well horse in any era.
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what i am getting at is you are basing your ratings on the other races on the day as well? cos i cant see how you can do that otherwise. what if the horses were better overall that day? Thats the flaw in the ratings. It also doesnt take intangibles like Northerly not letting horses past him and other quirks horses have.
FWIW i am coming around to Winx being the best horse we have seen for a long time, but you just cannot say that categorically.
rideclutch
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I'd like to know what the hell happened during her 3YO spring/autumn.
Imagine backing Ulmann in the Sunshine Coast Guineas... bastard had it shot to bits but then you get run down by a B-grade 3YO filly, who turns out to be one of the all time greats of the turf??
Madness!
Imagine backing Ulmann in the Sunshine Coast Guineas... bastard had it shot to bits but then you get run down by a B-grade 3YO filly, who turns out to be one of the all time greats of the turf??
Madness!
Watts4Dinner
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You can't say categorically because you're looking at a video and guessing. He can say it categorically, because data.
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flawed data
iluvparis
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From Memory it had the Metrop shot to bits and stopped like a dead set 2000m horse.
Nek minnut at Flemington produces the easiest 3200m win you'll ever see
#bart
iluvparis
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True - but they make up for that buy producing the worlds best horse flesh at EVERY OTHER DISTANCE.
They also race on legitimate racecourses not greyhound trucks.
Don't care who owns them - I just want to see the best possible horses humans can breed.
Plus their elite jumpers would absolutely towel most of our stayers as evidenced by Willie Mullins bringing his second stringers here for the Melbourne Cup.
iluvparis
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Perhaps you should watch his Guineas win - if that doesn't get you interested in the sport you are beyond help.
iluvparis
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LOL that is up their with Liefzy's Winx calls - truly truly horrible.
iluvparis
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Would be offset by prior achievements attained on mind numbing amounts of drugs
Watts4Dinner
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As opposed to your highly accurate guessing game.
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- #246
One can account for such things
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ok i will state the argument for racing in the 1990s to racing today like this
if the breeders dont breed horses to run further than 1600m how can the 2000 meters horses be better
if the pool of horses is depleted by 500 to 1000 horses of some sort of ability every year because they are sent to Asia how can the racing be better now without the horses populating the fields now
if the 1990's middle distance horses were travelling overseas and being very competitive (yes the japan cup argument again but the horses came from everywhere and that was the only race to get a guage on and it wasnt in australia) nowdays our middle distance horses cannot get out of their own way.
so how is todays racing better?
if the breeders dont breed horses to run further than 1600m how can the 2000 meters horses be better
if the pool of horses is depleted by 500 to 1000 horses of some sort of ability every year because they are sent to Asia how can the racing be better now without the horses populating the fields now
if the 1990's middle distance horses were travelling overseas and being very competitive (yes the japan cup argument again but the horses came from everywhere and that was the only race to get a guage on and it wasnt in australia) nowdays our middle distance horses cannot get out of their own way.
so how is todays racing better?
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Black Caviar broke 1 track record in very dodge circumstances but was hardly let go in most of her other races
how do you rate her not being let go?
Hareeba smashed the track record at Moonee Valley running 1.7.00 with 59kgs prior to it being resurfaced how do you account for that?
iluvparis
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Wut? Better Loosen Up and Sunline (1700m)- who else traveled overseas with success?
Did you ignore So You Think going overseas and dominating the European 2000m scene for a year and half winning two of their premiere 2000m races.
You also ignored Highland Reel coming here and getting his head kicked in by Winx.
You have also ignored genuine B graders in Alcopop and Lucia Valentina running well in Hong Kong.
iluvparis
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He probably accounts for it in the same way he accounts for Ike's Dream holding the Randwick 1600m track record.
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