Where we ganna finish?

[bluesforever]

Just as Pagan said, he would change Carlton and clean out, he did just that, shows we are moving forward, in my eyes he is the best strategic coach in the league and now with our new recruits its time for us to rise up the ladder, i seriously can see us doing pretty well next year, regarding our list, Carlton could finish anywhere between 8-10th, i know many people think we are no where near creeping up the ladder, but i think the talent is certainly there, the backline dont seem as bad as what people think, we have players to rotate when needed and midfielders to replace them, players like kouta can go back and we can easily fill his position for a quarter or half while he shuts down a key forward when needed. Where do you think we will end up in 03' ?

 

[Free Willy]

12th would be a good start - more importantly winning 8-10 games would be a superb improvement.
As much as we have improvred, its takes a while for a team to "gel" with so many new faces.
But by the same admission, at least Pagan now has a core group that are "willing" rather than the band of dissenters we shipped off & delisted.
All in all, a year of improvement for the Blues, not so sure we can get into top 10 through...........

 

[Chemical]

hopefully around 12th and ill be happy. any higher is a bonus at this stage of rebuilding

 

[Kooley]

Blueforever, I don't think Pagan as you have mentioned is the best Strategic coach in the competition. I think he has a real basic game plan that he brought across from North which never really worked last year. I hope Pagan with a better list next year can show that he has few more strings to his bow. Rather than the sole 'get it' and 'kick it' game plan that he used last year.

In saying all that I think we can make the eight.

 

[95&eyenoit]

Originally posted by Kooley
.... Rather than the sole 'get it' and 'kick it' game plan that he used last year.

I couldnt agree more. Said it before and will say it again, Pagan has to adopt a game plan that suits the players rather than get the players to conform to a regemented game plan.

I just hope the new season with the new players proves that Pagan is open to game plans outside the ol' 1960's kick and hope method.

 

[Blue Fury]

It's unfair to judge Pagan's style considering the cattle we had last year. Pagans coaching style is proven. Get the ball, kick it long and get it into the forward line as quick as possible. It attempting to isolate forwards one on one. We didn't have enough of the ball and weren't skilful enough to execute it last year.

Hopefully with a more competitive midfield and support for Fev up forward the game plan will prove to be more successful. This game plan works best when the pressure is on.

With any luck it won’t take the new blokes a year to understand it.

 

[kyza47]

13th

 

[Ari]

Im an Essendon fan having a cruise around on other clubs message boards.

Well done, mosts posts on this forum are for good reading.

Good to see you guys are realistic in your 2004 season too. I expected to see each post in this thread talking about finishing 1st or top4.

Good luck on your rebuilding, the sooner we can get the old Carlton/Essendon/Collingwood in the 8 the better.

"We love you cause youre a Victorian"

 

[flying_monk3y]

jeez this must be a good thread if we've got an essendon fan complimenting a carlton thread. btw i think we'll finish 9-12 next year then the year after 5-8.

 

[Effes]

Blue Fury is right

Pagans game plan WILL work now we have adjusted many areas of the list

*We can now win the ball out of the middle

*We do have 3-5 marking forwards....one of them can play the role of the goalsquare speckying/contested mark/park mark (Angwin)
Whitnall and Digby can play on the HF flank/Wing and Fev can play on the edge of the 50...then run back into the Paddock so the Full Backs are out of position (just have a look at the round 3 game)

*We have the SKILLS needed to play the Pagan game plan.....Stevens, Campo, Scotland, Johnson......with Mcormick and kouta feeding it out.....last year Campo wouldnt get enough of the ball....or he ran out of puff when we needed him most.

 

[Blue Fury]

Thanks BlueMike,

Without a doubt our onball brigade has improved and the inclusion of Whitnall (if he plays forward) and Morrell will give Fev the support he lacked last year.

I'll be interested to see the improvement in the kids like Waite, McCormick, Fisher etc and all the young guys who played several senior games last year. They have now had a year of Pagan's Paddock, hopefully it will come second nature to them in 2004.

I prefer Matty Lappin in the forward pocket. I think he is more damaging and greater value to us there. Hopefully players like Bowyer and Teague can take Lappins place in the backline and release him up forward.

 

[Captain Carlton]

During trade week, the draft and soon to be the Pre Seaon Draft we have made a OK forward line better, and have added depth to our midfield which should see our forwards having a bigger impact. While all of this is good in our defence we have lost McKay and Beauy in defence and added Teague and a possibility of playing Walker there. But I am hoping the midfield will keep the ball away as much as they can from the oppositions forward line. Also looking for some positives is the players are still young and are maturing. If Livo, Sporn, Wiggins, Prender and Norman especially the first 4 who have been at the club for a while now can show why they where taken early in the draft it could help stop those massive blow outs of 2003.

Would it be an option to drag Kouta and his opponent to the goal square one out like the old days.

I think our best position would be around 8th if everything went right and our worst to be 12th.

 

[Blue Fury]

Although Beaumont has traditionally played in the backline he played a hell of alot of footy this year forward of the centre. I think he played in our forward line more then the back line in 2003.

Without a doubt Macca has left a huge gap in defence, but we must rebuild as we did in the late 80's and early 90's. Remember Silvagni, Dean, Sexton, Hanna, Cristou were all kids once. Our backline is unproven, we have alot of youngsters with big raps on them. Thornton to date has shown he is of AFL standard, Norman, Livo need to stand up and be counted.

Captain Carlton the one thing people can never take away from us is hope. All Carlton supporters hope we make the finals, only time will tell. 2004 will hopefully be the resurrection of our great club. 2 years down the bottom is 2 years to much, let’s hope the 2004 crop pull their fingers out and give us something to cheer about.

 

[Blue Boyz]

Nice post Ari.

"Good to see you guys are realistic in your 2004 season too. I expected to see each post in this thread talking about finishing 1st or top4."

I don't think I have read any where that Blue supporters are predicting a top 4 finish. All I have seen are a few rather niave optimistic fans tipping a top 8 finish.

As I wrote earlier to a Bluesforever post on the topic of where Carlton would finish for 2004, I said that I would love to be proven wrong but I thought that if Carlton finishes any higher than the bottom four it will be a bonus. In reality, talk of finals is purely dreaming at this stage of the year as is supporters talking up all of the new recruits as none of them have played a game for the club yet. IMHO I think that you should give them at least 7 or 8 games before you make any judgement as to what long term impact they will have on the club and the very remote possibility of the Bluebaggers making the finals in the near future.

The success of the off season trades is a very small step in the right direction. People tend to forget that Collingwood picked up a lot of recycled players from other clubs in the early days of their resurgence as well some several well credentialled rookies. Unfortunately the AFL Comm. has excluded us for from that opition!!!!

In the short term I think the positive in recruitment of these players from other clubs is that team will be much more competitive than last year and even win a few more games maybe. Similarly we won't get flogged like we did V. the Weagles and Kangas, and hopefully these more experienced players will give the promising kids a chance to develop physically and be eased into an environment where they can find their legs and not be expected a play a role that they aren't mentally or physically ready for. And make no mistake,
Carlton does have several very promising kids with the likes of Waite, Fisher, Sporn and Norman likely to step up and make their presence felt a lot more in 2004 as they will be much more physically bigger and fitter than last year.

To me it sticks out like canine testes that the real and very obvious problem is the team lacks tall, physically strong and quick defenders such as a CHB, FB and a tall marking/punching 3rd backman and until we draft, develop or recruit these players, the team is going to consistently concede losing scores.

I know a lot of Carlton fans are a big rap for Thorton as I am, but at this stage of his development he is still physically better suited to a BP or BF. He may make it as a KP player down the road when he gets more experienced and stronger but he needs to play with hard and footy smart defenders teaching him how to play in the back half. I don't think many of our supporters realised how good a player SOS was and how he covered for several other backman was until he wasn't there. Thorton would learn so much playing along side of him, but at the moment he is the team's key defender and he hasn't even played two full seasons. Talk about being thrown in the deep end!!!

I can't believe that many of our supportere believe that recruiting several good midfielders will be able overcome the lack of quality defenders. True a dominating midfield will help keep the ball in our half but who is going hold the quality CHF's like Brown, Tredrea and Rocca when the opposition has the pill.

Have we all forgotten where all our premierships and and onfield successes originated from?? It was our rebounding defence. Carlton in the modern era have been blessed with many great defenders with Doull, Southby, Gould, Hunter, Harmes, English, Silvangi, Sexton, Dean and Christou just to name just a few. Now that Mackay has retired we haven't got ONE present day defender that would even remotely look like getting a game in any of our flag teams and that includes Thorton and he is the pick of the young kids by a country mile.

I know that Brisbane's Fab 4 gets a lot of kudos for their success but IMHO it is their rebounding running defenders like Michael, Johnson, Lepper and the Scott boys that cross the lines and put pressure on the opposition with their run.

Tall KP defenders should be the club's No. 1 recruiting focus in next year's draft other wise it is going to take a lot longer and many more years in the footballing wilderness for the Blues to become competitve again and get back into the finals, than many of our supporters presently think, hope or pray for.

 

[Thrawn]

It's great to see some activity here, especially when the activity is comporised of intelligent, well thought out responses. By all means, continue.

Anyways, where we finish on the ladder next year depends on how good the midfield will do. We've already got a potent forward line including Whitnall, Fevola, Lappin, Fisher and possibly Houlihan. These players have talent, and have damaged teams (Fisher will need more time, of course). What we lacked in the past two years was delivery into the forward fifty; on the rare occasions when we got it up there, the delivery was often poor. With a fast running midfield with accurate kickers of the ball and a bit of grunt will compensate for our poor defence somewhat as well as allowing Whitnall and Fevola in particular to kick more goals.

The only reliable defender we have at the moment is Thronton - at 20 he has the scalps of Lloyd (twice), Lloyd, Richardson, Hall and Rawlings despite being smaller than all those forwards. What we really need down back is a fast running small defender, as I fear that the smaller, faster forwards will hurt us more next year than the big, bulky ones. this was evident throughout this year. If the midfielders can lend support to the backline for a change, the defenders down there will have a lot of pressure taken off them - meaning that they'll have some confidence which is the most important aspect! It doesn't matter if you have a team of the best players in the land; if they have no confidence in their own abilities and with each other, then they'll be useless.

With the addition of Stevens, Boywer and Heath Scotland - there will be more support for Campo and Kouta. Morrel will be handy, as well as Teague - but we must remember that they just may be average to good players and not stars. McGrath is better than Murphy - he'll actually have a chance. Mott was a risky pick-up, but he's still a better option than French and it was a mistake recruiting Bannister and Harford as they'll be in the twos since we have better players in our starting 22 due to the other players we've picked up. I don't know too much about Johnson, so I'll pick him as a smokey (I've seen Hawk fans rate him highly... on and out of this site).

Whitnall, Fevola Koutoufides, Campo, Stevens, Thronton and any one of our ruckman must have a solid year in 2004 if we are any chance to at least finsih close outside the 8. If Whitnall, Fevola and Stevens come close or to their best, it will be really exciting to see if we can snare 8th spot. Whitnall at his best is the best CHF in the land, Fevola a top three FF and Stevens a top midfielder. If Kouta can generate the excitement like he did in 1999 - 2001, but still keep to his realistic level of ability, then he will inspire those around him... and being the captain, this will be of great benefit. If all this comes true, then all the people that gave us crap over the last two years will be in hiding. We can only hope...

I reckon 16th - 10th is being realistic, but before I state a single placing, I want to see our new team play first.

 

[DIG]

Depending on injuries and a million other things, I'm guessing 10th-13th. But if things go down the sewers in the first half of the season, would we better off languishing down the bottom for another year, getting the priority pick again and finally having the draft we've been craving for 3 years?! Can we cope with another year of the pain? Or would we prefer to see some character shown, and an honourable 7 or 8 wins on the board and a step in the right direction?

Unless we have a horror run with injuries plus continuously lose the close ones, I'm confident we'll get that 7 wins+. I don't think 8th's impossible either but of course it's very unlikely.

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by DIG
Can we cope with another year of the pain? Or would we prefer to see some character shown, and an honourable 7 or 8 wins on the board and a step in the right direction?

Very qood question.

I think Carlton really need to go and get some wins and finish around half way on the ladder. They have SOME young talent now (even though their drafts will take at least a year or two to come to AFL level) and have, with thanks to Pagan and recruiters, managed to get some middle class pre-made players on the list to ensure they dont get FLOGGED like they have.

Ultimately it's ok to lose and it's ok to go home saddened when you have the thought of next week at hand. The thing is, as an organisation the CFC can not afford to be embaressed again this year. I remember watching the Blues Roos game at the end of the last season and just felt sick.

 

[Blue Fury]

Originally posted by Ari

Ultimately it's ok to lose and it's ok to go home saddened

Ari I understand the point you’re trying to make, but I wouldn't use the words it’s okay to lose. St Kilda, Richmond, Melbourne & the Bulldogs have that mentality.

Yes I agree, we have a young list and that it will take time and we have to take it on the chin when we lose. As Carlton people we should take the view that plenty of water needs to pass under the bridge before we are a real threat again.

You’re also spot on about the Kangaroos game, it was the worst I have ever seen Carlton play. Apart from Feva and a couple others, every player in Navy Blue got smashed by his opponent.

I'm looking forward to a competitive outfit in 2004. It’s time we go to the game expecting to win, not hoping we don’t get pumped. At the moment there is more chance of winning tatts than selecting Carlton’s starting 22. (Who is going to play in the defence with Thornton?)

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by Blue Fury
Ari I understand the point you’re trying to make, but I wouldn't use the words it’s okay to lose. St Kilda, Richmond, Melbourne & the Bulldogs have that mentality.

Yes I agree, we have a young list and that it will take time and we have to take it on the chin when we lose. As Carlton people we should take the view that plenty of water needs to pass under the bridge before we are a real threat again.

You’re also spot on about the Kangaroos game, it was the worst I have ever seen Carlton play. Apart from Feva and a couple others, every player in Navy Blue got smashed by his opponent.

I'm looking forward to a competitive outfit in 2004. It’s time we go to the game expecting to win, not hoping we don’t get pumped. At the moment there is more chance of winning tatts than selecting Carlton’s starting 22. (Who is going to play in the defence with Thornton?)

Agree with you that my wording was not quite spot-on, saying its okay to lose...

You mention "as Carlton people"... im a Bomber

And yeah... it is a real mystery to see who Carlton fronts with. I said on an Essendon board that Carlton can make finals this year and was completely laughed at..... I still think they will be a smokey this year to be honest.

 

[anonymous Joe]

Originally posted by Ari
Agree with you that my wording was not quite spot-on, saying its okay to lose...

You mention "as Carlton people"... im a Bomber

And yeah... it is a real mystery to see who Carlton fronts with. I said on an Essendon board that Carlton can make finals this year and was completely laughed at..... I still think they will be a smokey this year to be honest.

anyone can make the finals. Sydney proved this last year.

Carlton will win for than 5 games this will hamper their attempt at rebuilding.

 

[Blue Fury]

Originally posted by Ari
You mention "as Carlton people"... im a Bomber

Fair enough then Ari, but it doesn’t say you’re a Bomber anywhere on your profile.

I think Dec/Jan is the time when all teams are equal to some degree and everybody speculates. The first couple of Wizard cup games and practices games will give supporters a better indication of their teams fortunes but until than we all consider ourselves experts.

Footy is a funny game, there are always 1 or 2 bolters each season, Sydney and Freo probably last year. You never know with the Blues but I’m not holding my breath. Hawthorn is the team from the bottom 8 with a legitimate claim to a top 8 position in 2004. Richmond is a funny team, you never know with that mob.

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by Blue Fury

Footy is a funny game, there are always 1 or 2 bolters each season, Sydney and Freo probably last year. You never know with the Blues but I’m not holding my breath. Hawthorn is the team from the bottom 8 with a legitimate claim to a top 8 position in 2004. Richmond is a funny team, you never know with that mob.

eww no.... Richmond are posers!!! They will next play finals in 2031

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by Blue Fury
The first couple of Wizard cup games and practices games will give supporters a better indication of their teams fortunes but until than we all consider ourselves experts.

Disagree.

Essendon have been crappy in Wizard cup for about the last 5 years yet seem to have done well in the H&A season. I think some teams use it to play well and others use it to blood players so it's not something to guage well with. As Sheeds has proven a couple times, you shouldn't show your cards at a Wizard Cup game.

 

[Blue Fury]

Yeah you make a valid point in respect to the Bombers Ari, but they are an established team who have a history of playing funny buggers in the preseason cup. Carlton is at best a jigsaw team bits and pieces taken from everywhere, hopefully the pieces will match up.

The Blues have something to prove and must play to win, it they are a shamble in the preseason comp then my team may be stuffed, be if they show a bit, well then we might be competitive in the real season. I still stand by my comment and believe it gives supporters some sort of indication.

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by Blue Fury
Yeah you make a valid point in respect to the Bombers Ari, but they are an established team who have a history of playing funny buggers in the preseason cup. Carlton is at best a jigsaw team bits and pieces taken from everywhere, hopefully the pieces will match up.

The Blues have something to prove and must play to win, it they are a shamble in the preseason comp then my team may be stuffed, be if they show a bit, well then we might be competitive in the real season. I still stand by my comment and believe it gives supporters some sort of indication.

After reading that, for the CFC you are quite right. I think they will be doing EVERYTHING they can to try and prove something or at least glue the pieces together before the H&A.