Opinion WHERE WILL THE IMPROVEMENT COME FROM?

[Circus]

There have been many good points made on this thread and all I want to do is to reiterate my number gripe - disposal. We look at our best when we have fast sure ball movement. All teams do, of course, but we don't do that often enough, even when we have the opportunity to start ball movement through a clear possession. A mark, free kick or winning a contested ball provides a precious opportunity to move the ball cleanly and to build the momentum of the speed the ball moves between players.

The reason players like Ross and Kent, for instance, really frustrate me is too often they slow the play up allowing the opposition to set up defensively and then we handball/kick to a contest with a 50% success rate, or move the ball to a negative ground position. We should use every clean possession to start a passage of play that every player is completely switched on to, that they not only expect but anticipate, look forward to and can feel good about being involved in.

Injuries disrupted the familiarity to team selections last year so allowance can be made for that, however there should be no tolerance for being hesitant and indecisive with the ball or for not providing an option for a team mate who has the ball however fleetingly he has it. I don't just want team football, I want that fast football in attack that is generated by clear thinking and continual movement. It seems we now have enough players with the ability to play like that and a few who have never really been able to, so I hope the game plan and team selection is based on quick, clean possession and disposal.

Any comparisons to the Tigers and the Demons are probably valid, however that style of play has always been successful in every era, relative to the style of play in that era. While Roos and then Lyon coached teams to be defensive first and then attack, their teams had the weapons to use when they did move the ball quickly. They also had an advantage that we currently don't possess, teams with a host of champions. We may have some in a couple of years time and in the meantime we need to develop and finetune players for that style of play because it wins finals footy. And its bloody great to watch!!

 

[King_Steele]

King
Clark
Higgins
Coffield

 

[MordySaint]

Ratts is in his final year and I hope that we don't rush to sign him yet. He's been a bit of a mixed bag, seeing finals again was amazing but there are times that his coaching looks ordinary. I think he's at least playing with an eye on the future and not for today unlike Richo who was always out on a ledge waiting for a shove so he coached for the day.

The comparison to Richo is interesting. Richo was lauded as a great coach and mentor in his first 4 years, it was only the last 2 years that he came under heavy criticism for his techniques.

Ratten however was under huge pressure and criticism in only his second year.

 

[ScrappyDo]

The comparison to Richo is interesting. Richo was lauded as a great coach and mentor in his first 4 years, it was only the last 2 years that he came under heavy criticism for his techniques.

Ratten however was under huge pressure and criticism in only his second year.

I don't see the comparison. Richo was always a spud but we the supporters were sold a pup from the club's spin department. He was never actually lauded by anyone in the football or public spheres.

 

[MordySaint]

I don't see the comparison. Richo was always a spud but we the supporters were sold a pup from the club's spin department. He was never actually lauded by anyone in the football or public spheres.

After Round 16 2017, when we annihilated the eventual premiers... was hardly a spud at that time.

Unfortunately it was all downhill from there.

 

[ScrappyDo]

After Round 16 2017, when we annihilated the eventual premiers... was hardly a spud at that time.

Unfortunately it was all downhill from there.

He was absolutely a spud at that time, it's just that Roo and Joey had been doing his job for him.

 

[gringo2011]

After Round 16 2017, when we annihilated the eventual premiers... was hardly a spud at that time.

Unfortunately it was all downhill from there.

Richmond took his rebound wave game that beat them and redid it in their own style after that. Melbourne use a bit of his wave run style too. I think he was limited by the players he had and wasn't a great developer of individual players though. Clarko is s**t when he doesn't have a good list. Malthouse was a premiership coach then coached a wooden spoon side 2 years apart. Pretty obvious that Lethlean reviewed our list in a brutal fashion, we would have a turn over of players more like a side who'd come to the end of an era rather that a decoration of cake that was built for finals type set up.

 

[gringo2011]

He was absolutely a spud at that time, it's just that Roo and Joey had been doing his job for him.

There are only 6 to 8 best 22 players from 2017 left and some of those are guys like Ross and Webster who may not be best 22 in the next few years. Only Sincs, Steele, Membrey and Marshall are top shelf with Billings types sitting just off that. He really had * all to work with. Guys like Bruce and Ross were his guns and Stuv was probably the only player close to a star at the time. Rooey late career was still good but waning, Montagna was sent to a HBF to graze. Our backline was Carlisle- when he played, old man Brown, Webster, Savage, Montagna and DMac. Wright, Rice and White types rounding out the back 6.

 

[MordySaint]

He was absolutely a spud at that time, it's just that Roo and Joey had been doing his job for him.

I'm well and truly not a Richo fan or in his camp at all.

I'm just saying that at the time we thought it was all pretty positive.... the actual reality was completely different.

The club sold us a mutton dressed up as lamb.

 

[ScrappyDo]

There are only 6 to 8 best 22 players from 2017 left and some of those are guys like Ross and Webster who may not be best 22 in the next few years. Only Sincs, Steele, Membrey and Marshall are top shelf with Billings types sitting just off that. He really had fu** all to work with. Guys like Bruce and Ross were his guns and Stuv was probably the only player close to a star at the time. Rooey late career was still good but waning, Montagna was sent to a HBF to graze. Our backline was Carlisle- when he played, old man Brown, Webster, Savage, Montagna and DMac. Wright, Rice and White types rounding out the back 6.

I understand that he had eff all to work with, but at this point there's really no need to split hairs over the whole thing. Trout couldn't draft them, and Richo couldn't develop or coach them. They were all s**t.

If we want to look at how s**t we were you can also look to the off field changes. Sexton the cockroach is the only bloke left isn't he?

 

[MordySaint]

Anybody know the status of the Moorabbin ground resurfacing and if our teams have access to a full ground to do training?

I do watch them in the little park next door training, its not a big area... no goals and they seem to concentrate on handball drills all the time.

How long before our teams get access to the ground?

 

[gringo2011]

Anybody know the status of the Moorabbin ground resurfacing and if our teams have access to a full ground to do training?

I do watch them in the little park next door training, its not a big area... no goals and they seem to concentrate on handball drills all the time.

How long before our teams get access to the ground?

Mid February was the original completion date.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Mid February was the original completion date.

I was there today. The ground looked amazing. The boys were all in a meeting.
The person I asked said end of February they should be back training there.

 

[Bill Mohr]

Z. Jones. If he stays on the park, it'll be massive for the other guys on ball. If the younger guys hitting the sweet spot of their careers can lift 5-10% then our team will be unrecognisable to the swill we've put on the park over the last decade.

Unfortunately, I just can't agree with anyone saying Billings has something left to offer. His new contract is a bitter pill for me to swallow. I understand he played with injury last year, but he has been a huge disappointment overall. A squandered talent seemingly happy with mediocrity, the thought of him getting to 200 games with us sickens my arse.

The answer to that one Tom is that if Billings does not perform then he should be dropped. A few games in the 2's would wake him up. Will Ratten do that though? I dont think Ratten has that type of history in his coaching. Most would expect Billings to get 20+ good possessions, a goal a game and have major impact on occasion, such as a 5 goal game and a couple of match winning performances. I dont think he can do much better than that.

 

[Bill Mohr]

When Ryder plays it will be a bonus , however I feel Marshall if he can stay fit will be our main ruckman.
Ryder has not been able to get more than 12 games in the last 2 years and expecting him to be one of our focal points is not on in my view.
However every game he can play as I say will be a bonus.
Then again Port more or less wrote him off and he came to us and showed he still is a champion when right.
You can never write this big fella out.

Spot on. Ryder has a real presence in the side and a superb tap ruckman. Hardly plays a bad one. He can beat most ruckmen or at least break even. He and Marshall are a very good combination , Marshall is mobile gets plenty of the ball and can outmark most players. Hopefully he and Ryder can rock up fit for 2022

 

[Ricmel]

We really only have Steele that has that ability to step up when things get hot in the kitchen. Most seem to go into their shells when challenged.

The danger of threads like this one is that each successive post gets more excited about the potential of the list and the likely turbo improvement over the previous year. Every club board is the same. And there is the rub, you have to improve just to tread water.

The problem StKilda has is encapsulated in gringos comment. For what ever reason (mental, fitness, skill, game plan?) we currently only have one player on the list that you can pretty well rely on week in, week out.

Billings, Gresham, Crouch, Clark, Coffield, Jones, Hill, Higgins, Butler, Sinclair, Bytel, Membery, Battle, Webster, Dmac - they have all shown signs in patches, rarely all at once and rarely with consistency. Maybe some apologies to Sinclair based on 2021.

IF they all put it together for a season - massive IF - there is a flag in this group. But they have never done it before and sometimes what you see is just what it is. Who knows?

I deliberately left out the big guys - Marshall, Ryder, King, Howard. Whilst I feel they are also patchy at times with their best form, I think they will deliver when (if) the core of the team clicks.

 

[Ricmel]

Unfortunately, I just can't agree with anyone saying Billings has something left to offer. His new contract is a bitter pill for me to swallow. I understand he played with injury last year, but he has been a huge disappointment overall.

I was at the Sandy Oval training the other day and I mentioned in another post that everyone looked nice and fit and full of run as you would expect. I said the one that stood out to me was Higgins. I didn't say the other thing that stood out to me was Billings being not much more than a spectator. Even though these were set play drills in a match sim he just skirted around the edge of the action, little or no impact. I actually don't recall him touching it although I know he must have. Unfortunately I think after 9 years this is just the nature of the beast.

 

[pebblesofsand]

The danger of threads like this one is that each successive post gets more excited about the potential of the list and the likely turbo improvement over the previous year. Every club board is the same. And there is the rub, you have to improve just to tread water.

The problem StKilda has is encapsulated in gringos comment. For what ever reason (mental, fitness, skill, game plan?) we currently only have one player on the list that you can pretty well rely on week in, week out.

Billings, Gresham, Crouch, Clark, Coffield, Jones, Hill, Higgins, Butler, Sinclair, Bytel, Membery, Battle, Webster, Dmac - they have all shown signs in patches, rarely all at once and rarely with consistency. Maybe some apologies to Sinclair based on 2021.

IF they all put it together for a season - massive IF - there is a flag in this group. But they have never done it before and sometimes what you see is just what it is. Who knows?

I deliberately left out the big guys - Marshall, Ryder, King, Howard. Whilst I feel they are also patchy at times with their best form, I think they will deliver when (if) the core of the team clicks.

Bit harsh on a few players there Ricmel. They may not be AA superstars but the likes of Wilkie, Higgins, Webster, Crouch, Sinclair, Membrey, Billings were very consistent performers on a weekly basis.

But clearly the one's that need to really step up are the younger high draft pick's - so primarily its got to be Clark, Coffield and to a lesser extent Jack Higgins and Gresh.

And then in a dream world, hopefully one or two of the newer ones will come on this year and really surprise - Bytel, Byrnes, Highmore, Connolly, Windy, Allison, Owens, NWM, Adams.

 

[tomjoad]

I was at the Sandy Oval training the other day and I mentioned in another post that everyone looked nice and fit and full of run as you would expect. I said the one that stood out to me was Higgins. I didn't say the other thing that stood out to me was Billings being not much more than a spectator. Even though these were set play drills in a match sim he just skirted around the edge of the action, little or no impact. I actually don't recall him touching it although I know he must have. Unfortunately I think after 9 years this is just the nature of the beast.

I'm not surprised. He's got his next 4 years and got what he wanted...he got a big score in his last couple of contracts, and now he can casually coast into a sea of beige and out of our memories on a nifty 500 grand or so a year.

 

[Ricmel]

Bit harsh on a few players there Ricmel. They may not be AA superstars but the likes of Wilkie, Higgins, Webster, Crouch, Sinclair, Membrey, Billings were very consistent performers on a weekly basis.

Then we really are in trouble. The one thing I think we hold onto is that we see so much more in these players. If they are already at their consistent best then we are in a world of pain.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

The danger of threads like this one is that each successive post gets more excited about the potential of the list and the likely turbo improvement over the previous year. Every club board is the same. And there is the rub, you have to improve just to tread water.

The problem StKilda has is encapsulated in gringos comment. For what ever reason (mental, fitness, skill, game plan?) we currently only have one player on the list that you can pretty well rely on week in, week out.

Billings, Gresham, Crouch, Clark, Coffield, Jones, Hill, Higgins, Butler, Sinclair, Bytel, Membery, Battle, Webster, Dmac - they have all shown signs in patches, rarely all at once and rarely with consistency. Maybe some apologies to Sinclair based on 2021.

IF they all put it together for a season - massive IF - there is a flag in this group. But they have never done it before and sometimes what you see is just what it is. Who knows?

I deliberately left out the big guys - Marshall, Ryder, King, Howard. Whilst I feel they are also patchy at times with their best form, I think they will deliver when (if) the core of the team clicks.

Marshall and Ryder are never out of form just often under injury clouds.

 

[luca77]

Then we really are in trouble. The one thing I think we hold onto is that we see so much more in these players. If they are already at their consistent best then we are in a world of pain.

Nah, huge exaggeration.

If we can somehow avoid getting flogged in the guts, we're competitive with the other good teams in all other parts of the ground with this list.
A lot will depend on how our young mids go, and the fitness of Gresh and Jones to avoid that happening.
Edit: And we need absolutely nothing bad to happen to Steele!
A world of pain was the early part of last year. We're through that.

Treading water this year to finish 6th to 9th won't be the end of the world. 10th or lower would probably mean we were badly coached or had rotten luck with injury. 2023 is when we'll hit our straps.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Then we really are in trouble. The one thing I think we hold onto is that we see so much more in these players. If they are already at their consistent best then we are in a world of pain.

Nah definitely do not agree. At the start of the year not one "expert" had Melbourne making the eight let alone winning the flag and most of their supporters would have looking at their prospects exactly as you have described your feeling about us.

The reason - because they "looked" like they had too many "ordinary" or "Inconsistent" players in their team and would be reliant on their best having blinders to do any good at all.

Seriously their backline is solid but you take out either May or Lever and its not great, first tranche of midfield very very good, their forward line - really????.

But what happened - their best had blinders - a couple of "unknowns" then stepped up and the rest became better because it became easier.

I have no doubt that the same could happen this year for us (and pretty much every other team) because most of the difference between teams these days lays in the intangibles like confidence and belief in you team mates and your system.

So Steele, Marshall, Gresh and King to dominate, Higgins, Clark and Coffield to step up to the next level and then Highmore and Sharman to become serious "names" and Windy to take out the Rising Star Award.

Saints Premiers 2022!!!

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Nah definitely do not agree. At the start of the year not one "expert" had Melbourne making the eight let alone winning the flag and most of their supporters would have looking at their prospects exactly as you have described your feeling about us.

The reason - because they "looked" like they had too many "ordinary" or "Inconsistent" players in their team and would be reliant on their best having blinders to do any good at all.

Seriously their backline is solid but you take out either May or Lever and its not great, first tranche of midfield very very good, their forward line - really????.
View attachment 1315032
But what happened - their best had blinders - a couple of "unknowns" then stepped up and the rest became better because it became easier.

I have no doubt that the same could happen this year for us (and pretty much every other team) because most of the difference between teams these days lays in the intangibles like confidence and belief in you team mates and your system.

So Steele, Marshall, Gresh and King to dominate, Higgins, Clark and Coffield to step up to the next level and then Highmore and Sharman to become serious "names" and Windy to take out the Rising Star Award.

Saints Premiers 2022!!!

Yep, and not even so much about talent (although there top 4 are amazing), but game style, defence and structure was where the biggest gains were made.

 

[Ricmel]

I have no doubt that the same could happen this year for us (and pretty much every other team) because most of the difference between teams these days lays in the intangibles like confidence and belief in you team mates and your system.

Windy to take out the Rising Star Award.

Saints Premiers 2022!!!

Then we are sort of agreeing. As I said, the list has oodles of talent. For whatever reason they have rarely been able to put it all on at the same time with much consistency. That likely does go to some mental/attitude/belief issue. Whether that is easy to turn around or not, who knows.

I agree on Windy. Think he has the makings of a very rare talent.