Where will we finish in 2021 ?

Where will the Hawks finish in 2021 ?


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TheFourPillars

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I honestly think where we finish this year all depends on Clarkos mindset.

If we play that dour, slow, loss minimising, kick it long to contested pack style game plan like last year we will finish around 9th to 14th.

However if we play the fast, aggresibe, attacking, play on at all costs style we will either finish last (if it doesnt click and we get scored heavily against) or make the eight if it works beautifully.

Personally I hope we roll the dice and go with option 2 because another year of watching option 1 is not something I look forward to!
FMD this sh*t again we do not train the whole pre season to play this game plan. No one does no one. We haven't trained to do this. This is NOT our game plan. How many times have I explained this. You have to give the opposition some credit. Sometimes there are no options and we are forced to kick it long. Players on the field in their running patterns, execution, confidence and skills determine how well we execute the plan that we actually want to play. Players lose confidence during the season turning the ball over trying to execute and become more conservative.

Edit: Game plans involve different structures and we have at least 9 that i have counted
 

Strapping Young Lad

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Where do you think we'll finish mate ? I'm tipping you'll give a politician response that can't be looked back on in 6 months with any great detail.
And I’m tipping you’ll only be happy if we are sh*t and you can remind everyone every second day.
 

Simon Crawshay

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FMD this sh*t again we do not train the whole pre season to play this game plan. No one does no one. We haven't trained to do this. This is NOT our game plan. How many times have I explained this. You have to give the opposition some credit. Sometimes there are no options and we are forced to kick it long. Players on the field in their running patterns, execution, confidence and skills determine how well we execute the plan that we actually want to play. Players lose confidence during the season turning the ball over trying to execute and become more conservative.

Edit: Game plans involve different structures and we have at least 9 that i have counted
Plenty of teams have trained to execute a slow, dour risk minimised football style.

Ross Lyon and Paul Roos made a career out of it. It is a legitimate style (I hate it personally but it has had success over the years)

If a team plays a certain style how can you say the coach plays no part in that? It can't all be down to loss of confidence in the playing group surely?
 

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Brant

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As many of the track watchers tell us, it has nothing to do with Clarkos mindset and everything to do with our ability to execute our game plan. The emphasis on quick ball movement is not new, however, when things weren’t working for us last year, we couldn’t execute it. We looked dull and slow. All signs this year point to an exciting brand, but there will be times we can’t pull it off. And it has everything to do with our ability, not a direction.
Team Selection is a game plan issue - there's no way round that. Unless we raffle for the side every week or we just post the date/time on a notice board & let the boys sort it out themselves, then it is part of the plan. If you set a plan that guys can't achieve; &, you have the guys on contract & can't just f**k them off & get new guys, then it's part of the plan.

I'll buy that the hubs smashed us more than other clubs & I'll buy that hub-life meant that we couldn't evolve the plan mid-year... but blaming execution as the issue effectively means that we're blaming Stratton / BigBoy / Hardwick for not being competent in running the ball out of defence or at least making space to get the ball into the hands of effective kickers.

Further, if this is correct & it was an execution issue & we suddenly seem to be able to execute so much better in 2021 than in 2020 (practice matches withstanding), then what level of error has been accepted within the Selection Committee that they've now realised that playing 4-5 Lockdown-type defenders (incl. a Ruckman!) may have contributed to an 'execution problem'? (rhetorical, I don't expect an answer).

Then there's Scrimshaw in his video on the club site & Morrison in the piece on him in the last day or so, both reference a change/tweak in game plan from last year. There's evidently a greater emphasis on running from defence in 2021. A big part of that (in the 2 matches we've seen) is through playing guys more adept at running, in/from defence*.

Now I'm not convinced we should play a complete running style defence & I don't think we'll go all Richmond like in our game plan - I think we'll use our runners to give us space/time & continue trying to get the ball into the hands of our elite ball users: a hybrid plan between our recent glory years & the current Richmond swarm, perhaps - but I think it'll evolve into another dynasty type scenario where we're top of the league for many years to come.
 

Brant

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FMD this sh*t again we do not train the whole pre season to play this game plan. No one does no one. We haven't trained to do this. This is NOT our game plan. How many times have I explained this. You have to give the opposition some credit. Sometimes there are no options and we are forced to kick it long. Players on the field in their running patterns, execution, confidence and skills determine how well we execute the plan that we actually want to play. Players lose confidence during the season turning the ball over trying to execute and become more conservative.

Edit: Game plans involve different structures and we have at least 9 that i have counted
If we're going to be so complimentary to opposition teams & give them credit; &, accepting your position that our game plan hasn't changed; then we have to assume that the selection committee was incompetent or negligent in repeatedly selecting a team that couldn't execute.

Either that or it was a sh*t plan that could never work & if the plan hasn't changed (as you keep saying) then we're destined to be sh*t year after year until something gives.
 

TheFourPillars

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If we're going to be so complimentary to opposition teams & give them credit; &, accepting your position that our game plan hasn't changed; then we have to assume that the selection committee was incompetent or negligent in repeatedly selecting a team that couldn't execute.

Either that or it was a sh*t plan that could never work & if the plan hasn't changed (as you keep saying) then we're destined to be sh*t year after year until something gives.
So u have seen that we have tried to play a style this year. We played that style last year as well. It is not just execution. Its the players, confidence in themselves in their team mates. Team synergy, attitude, motovation, risk taking and whole host of other reasons. Kicking down the line is also very much determined by your opponent and how well they defend.

When you train to play a certain way. Its not thrown out the window. You hopefully get better at executing over each pre season. So u play better against better opposition and with increased pressure. Thats how u improve it doesnt happen over one season. I will also say it was kind of hard to make objective team selections last year.

Here's hoping we've improved as a team and we can sustain the enthusiasm over the season

Oh yes and it is also your personnel.
 

Zack

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If we genuinely try to play youth where possible ill be happy as we are rebuilding. I do understand its not always possible we dropped buddy and roughy early on to rest them 4 another crack.

So let's say Downie for example has 3 ripper games and we rest him a week... no issue. Its a rebuilding process not 2 slaughter youth. We don't bring him back a week or two later then there is an issue.

Its why we got for example Hartigan big, solid, strong but he's job is to protect dgb for the next 2 years. They will if DGB reaches half his potential play together and that is what rebuilding is about.

To put it into perspective Richie Vandenberg was as important 2 our 08 gf as any player who played that game. He provided the leadership and the protection 2 get us there. As did others and hopefully as will the likes of Hartigan we've recently brought in do so if we are willing as a club 2 follow the same path again.
 

Brant

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So u have seen that we have tried to play a style this year. We played that style last year as well. It is not just execution. Its the players, confidence in themselves in their team mates. Team synergy, attitude, motovation, risk taking and whole host of other reasons. Kicking down the line is also very much determined by your opponent and how well they defend.

When you train to play a certain way. Its not thrown out the window. You hopefully get better at executing over each pre season. So u play better against better opposition and with increased pressure. Thats how u improve it doesnt happen over one season. I will also say it was kind of hard to make objective team selections last year.

Here's hoping we've improved as a team and we can sustain the enthusiasm over the season

Oh yes and it is also your personnel.
One might consider designing a game plan around your available personnel, rather than creating one there's zero chance they can execute, then revising it.

TheFourPillars - I have unwavering faith that what we're building will pay off & we'll be unstoppable* between 2023 - 202X, but I'll never accept that we had to be as horrid as we were in 2020.



*we'll lose mid-season games of course, but I'm talking Finals games.
 

Mercy Seat

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Team Selection is a game plan issue - there's no way round that. Unless we raffle for the side every week or we just post the date/time on a notice board & let the boys sort it out themselves, then it is part of the plan. If you set a plan that guys can't achieve; &, you have the guys on contract & can't just f**k them off & get new guys, then it's part of the plan.

I'll buy that the hubs smashed us more than other clubs & I'll buy that hub-life meant that we couldn't evolve the plan mid-year... but blaming execution as the issue effectively means that we're blaming Stratton / BigBoy / Hardwick for not being competent in running the ball out of defence or at least making space to get the ball into the hands of effective kickers.

Further, if this is correct & it was an execution issue & we suddenly seem to be able to execute so much better in 2021 than in 2020 (practice matches withstanding), then what level of error has been accepted within the Selection Committee that they've now realised that playing 4-5 Lockdown-type defenders (incl. a Ruckman!) may have contributed to an 'execution problem'? (rhetorical, I don't expect an answer).

Then there's Scrimshaw in his video on the club site & Morrison in the piece on him in the last day or so, both reference a change/tweak in game plan from last year. There's evidently a greater emphasis on running from defence in 2021. A big part of that (in the 2 matches we've seen) is through playing guys more adept at running, in/from defence*.

Now I'm not convinced we should play a complete running style defence & I don't think we'll go all Richmond like in our game plan - I think we'll use our runners to give us space/time & continue trying to get the ball into the hands of our elite ball users: a hybrid plan between our recent glory years & the current Richmond swarm, perhaps - but I think it'll evolve into another dynasty type scenario where we're top of the league for many years to come.
TheFourPillars has explained this a lot better than I can.

All I will say is, we played more players from our list than any other side in the comp last year. The issues in executing our game plan were far more complex than team selection.
 

Brant

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TheFourPillars has explained this a lot better than I can.

All I will say is, we played more players from our list than any other side in the comp last year. The issues in executing our game plan were far more complex than team selection.
Playing a bunch of players doesn't mitigate a silly game plan - it probably should be seen that no matter how many people you play, it still can't be executed. Should also be noted that I've agreed many times that execution was an issue - as was selection - but that doesn't ever seem to be conceded from those blaming execution.

Just on what TheFourPillars says... he's one of my favourite posters. For more than 10 years he's provided me insight to HFC that I'm more than 3,500km away from & can never access myself. He's regular with info & his observation & analysis is great. Of course that doesn't mean I agree with everything s/he posts, nor does it mean s/he isn't sometimes biased or incorrect.
 

Zack

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Our gameplan was built around endurance the afl dropped games to 16 minute quarters and doubled rest time between goals. Couldn't have attacked a game plan based on endurance more personally than that.
 

Mercy Seat

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Playing a bunch of players doesn't mitigate a silly game plan - it probably should be seen that no matter how many people you play, it still can't be executed. Should also be noted that I've agreed many times that execution was an issue - as was selection - but that doesn't ever seem to be conceded from those blaming execution.

Just on what TheFourPillars says... he's one of my favourite posters. For more than 10 years he's provided me insight to HFC that I'm more than 3,500km away from & can never access myself. He's regular with info & his observation & analysis is great. Of course that doesn't mean I agree with everything s/he posts, nor does it mean s/he isn't sometimes biased or incorrect.
I won’t concede it because I don’t think any team we could have played from our 42 last year would have changed a single result. Or would have been able to execute the type of footy we wanted to play.
 

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bris tarangau

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Playing a bunch of players doesn't mitigate a silly game plan - it probably should be seen that no matter how many people you play, it still can't be executed. Should also be noted that I've agreed many times that execution was an issue - as was selection - but that doesn't ever seem to be conceded from those blaming execution.

Just on what TheFourPillars says... he's one of my favourite posters. For more than 10 years he's provided me insight to HFC that I'm more than 3,500km away from & can never access myself. He's regular with info & his observation & analysis is great. Of course that doesn't mean I agree with everything s/he posts, nor does it mean s/he isn't sometimes biased or incorrect.
"...mitigate a silly game plan.." Are you inferring that Clarko & his coaching staff are silly? And devised a "silly game plan"?:think:
 

tommyk72

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I won’t concede it because I don’t think any team we could have played from our 42 last year would have changed a single result. Or would have been able to execute the type of footy we wanted to play.
Stratton should not have been playing after about round 6. Simple as that. Removing him from the team and changing the balance down back would have effected the way the ball was moved forward, and I would suggest impacted results. Not a heap, but at least a couple.
 

Mercy Seat

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Stratton should not have been playing after about round 6. Simple as that. Removing him from the team and changing the balance down back would have effected the way the ball was moved forward, and I would suggest impacted results. Not a heap, but at least a couple.
Dropping the captain and most popular leader in a year where team morale was at its absolute lowest would probably have done the complete opposite and possibly sent a cultural rip through the playing group that may have continued beyond the actual season.
 

Mercy Seat

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Suggests a pretty fundamental issue with the type of footy we were trying to play then, right?
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to argue here. As explained above, we had a poor year, there were a number of reasons for that. Players train all off season with a particular game style. It worked until it didn’t, and much or that was due to hubs, confidence, the opposition, etc etc. We can’t just magically come up with a new game plan mid season to align with players lack of confidence and hatred of being on the road.
 

TheFourPillars

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Playing a bunch of players doesn't mitigate a silly game plan - it probably should be seen that no matter how many people you play, it still can't be executed. Should also be noted that I've agreed many times that execution was an issue - as was selection - but that doesn't ever seem to be conceded from those blaming execution.

Just on what TheFourPillars says... he's one of my favourite posters. For more than 10 years he's provided me insight to HFC that I'm more than 3,500km away from & can never access myself. He's regular with info & his observation & analysis is great. Of course that doesn't mean I agree with everything s/he posts, nor does it mean s/he isn't sometimes biased or incorrect.
You dont have to explain yourself mate. You disagree with me and thats ok. As far as what i post it what i see. I try to be as objective as i can about coaches and players. As i have mentiones selection last year was tough without meaningful games. However we did have a large number of players play more than most in the Afl. Bringing in new players is a double edged sword. They couldn't even train with each other last year. We looked and played like a rabble with hardly a semblance of team work compounded by the still current skill issues. Hopefully that bastard year is behind us. Just remember the way they are playing now. It may all fall to pieces. I hope it doesnt but its a long year
 

TazHawk15

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I had us finishing around the 9th to 12th range but now that genius David King has picked us for the Spoon, I think we can win the Premiership.

His tipping in the days leading to the 2013,14,15 Grand Finals, was sublime in its stupidity.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I had us finishing around the 9th to 12th range but now that genius David King has picked us for the Spoon, I think we can win the Premiership.

His tipping in the days leading to the 2013,14,15 Grand Finals, was sublime in its stupidity.
I think Healy was even worse than King through that period. He tipped us once that whole time, and that was against Adelaide at the G in 2015.
 

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