Which English Test side was stronger? Michael Vaughan's led side? Or Strauss and Cook's led side?

[Heisenberg111]

The two greatest English Test sides in the new millennium were from 2003-2005 captained by Michael Vaughan and from 2009-2013 skippered by Andrew Strauss and Alastair Cook.

So the question is which English Test side was superior ?

 

[Trojan90]

Strauss 2010
Strauss c
Cook
Trott
Pietersen
Collingwood
Bell
Prior +
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

Vaughan 2005
Trescothick
Strauss
Vaughan c
Bell
Pietersen
Flintoff
G Jones +
Giles
Hoggard
Harmison
S.Jones

For me these are the best XI's each captain had. On paper i'd go with Team Strauss. Prior/Swann > Jones/Giles probably being the difference.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Good question. But I'd add that Vaughan's team defeated a much stronger Australian side. And Vaughan's captaincy in 2005 was outstanding.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Oops. So obviously my vote goes to Vaughan.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Strauss/Cook without question.

Everything went wrong for Australia in 2005, and England only managed to eke it out by the barest of possible margins. McGrath doesn't step on a cricket ball during the warmup and Kasper doesn't get that howler, and Australia win the series. It's telling that functionally the same side came out to Australia the next year and had their pants pulled down.

What Strauss and Cook did in 2010/11 is near-unprecedented in an English sense, and it'll probably be a long time until it's repeated. Batting was better, and the bowling, if not outwardly better, was at least a lot more consistent. The Vaughan era was super reliant on Flintoff's rare, talismanic performances and an injury-prone Simon Jones.

 

[Seedsfan]

Strauss/Cook without question.

Everything went wrong for Australia in 2005, and England only managed to eke it out by the barest of possible margins. McGrath doesn't step on a cricket ball during the warmup and Kasper doesn't get that howler, and Australia win the series. It's telling that functionally the same side came out to Australia the next year and had their pants pulled down.

What Strauss and Cook did in 2010/11 is near-unprecedented in an English sense, and it'll probably be a long time until it's repeated. Batting was better, and the bowling, if not outwardly better, was at least a lot more consistent. The Vaughan era was super reliant on Flintoff's rare, talismanic performances and an injury-prone Simon Jones.

Tend to agree with this

 

[Heisenberg111]

For me, its Vaughan’s side because it had the fast bowlers. And the best skipper. As good as Strauss's team was, it still got whitewashed in the UAE by Pakistan even with Swann and Panesar playing.

 

[footyfan1978]

2005 team easily. Best series by an England team in all the time I have been watching.
Bowling for series just played out of their skin. Harmison could be off at times but if he was on, very difficult bowler to partner Flintoff and Jones so there was a rare series from England were very little let up. Jones swing was awesome that series and undid a very talented batting side. Hoggard and Giles were also part of this series. Massive upset and had some luck but they still did it. Australia sides beaten since, much weaker than that side. Flintoff just had Gilly number that series which probably was the difference in the end as we all know Gilly could just take game away from you and this series they got the better of the match winner.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Strauss/Cook without question.

Everything went wrong for Australia in 2005, and England only managed to eke it out by the barest of possible margins. McGrath doesn't step on a cricket ball during the warmup and Kasper doesn't get that howler, and Australia win the series.
It's telling that functionally the same side came out to Australia the next year and had their pants pulled down.

What Strauss and Cook did in 2010/11 is near-unprecedented in an English sense, and it'll probably be a long time until it's repeated. Batting was better, and the bowling, if not outwardly better, was at least a lot more consistent. The Vaughan era was super reliant on Flintoff's rare, talismanic performances and an injury-prone Simon Jones.

I don't think it was the same side. Vaughan was absent and Freddie captained in that series, also Simon Jones the hero of 2005 was a big miss and Harmison was just not the same bowler anymore. Vaughan' team peaked in 2005.

 

[PhatBoy]

Hmmm it’s a good question.
Strauss/Tresco was a very good opening pair
So was Strauss and Cook. Tend to think Strauss was at his best around the time of that first series and that’s backed by the fact that he was the only multiple centurion in it
Vaughan was a very good 3 but was past his peak by 05. Trott around 2010-11 was better.
The later edition of Ian Bell was twice the player he was in his maiden ashes. Was a criminally under valued player later in his career and still one of my favourite English players. He was a rare combination of gifted talent, with no bullshit.
You can take your pick with Pietersen, he was always a very good player though his knack for a special innings was nearing its peak during the Strauss/cook transition era when he also had a crack at leading the side.

I personally have stokes over flintoff. Even in his one magic series I don’t think he was doing stuff that Stokes can’t do. Stokes is a far better batsman and honestly if he had to bowl more as a strike bowler I think he’d be just as good a bowler as flintoff. He has tricks, he has pace, he has bounce, he has heart. And he’s a freak fielder (yes Freddie was a good fielder too).

Prior smashes Jones as a keeper. No contest

Bowling is where 05 makes a bit of a run at it but even then it’s only ‘at their best’ that any of the 05 bowlers even get close

 

[Heisenberg111]

Hmmm it’s a good question.
Strauss/Tresco was a very good opening pair
So was Strauss and Cook. Tend to think Strauss was at his best around the time of that first series and that’s backed by the fact that he was the only multiple centurion in it
Vaughan was a very good 3 but was past his peak by 05. Trott around 2010-11 was better.
The later edition of Ian Bell was twice the player he was in his maiden ashes. Was a criminally under valued player later in his career and still one of my favourite English players. He was a rare combination of gifted talent, with no bullshit.
You can take your pick with Pietersen, he was always a very good player though his knack for a special innings was nearing its peak during the Strauss/cook transition era when he also had a crack at leading the side.

I personally have stokes over flintoff. Even in his one magic series I don’t think he was doing stuff that Stokes can’t do. Stokes is a far better batsman and honestly if he had to bowl more as a strike bowler I think he’d be just as good a bowler as flintoff. He has tricks, he has pace, he has bounce, he has heart. And he’s a freak fielder (yes Freddie was a good fielder too).

Prior smashes Jones as a keeper. No contest

Bowling is where 05 makes a bit of a run at it but even then it’s only ‘at their best’ that any of the 05 bowlers even get close

Vaughan's quartet of Hoggard, Harmison, Flintoff and Jones is superior to Anderson and Broad IMO.

 

[PhatBoy]

Vaughan's quartet of Hoggard, Harmison, Flintoff and Jones is superior to Anderson and Broad IMO.

Anderson Broad and Stokes? Attacks include a spinner as well and the gap between Swann and Giles is colossal

 

[Caesar]

Simon Jones is probably the best swing bowler in my lifetime

 

[Heisenberg111]

England's results under Vaughan/Flintoff from 2003-2006

Drew 2-2 with SA at home in 2003.
Lost 0-1 to SL away in 2003/04
Won 3-0 against a decent WI team away in 2004( England's first series win in the Caribbean in 36 years)
Won 3-0 against NZ at home in 2004
Won 4-0 against WI at home in 2004
Won 2-1 against a strong SA team away in 2004/05
Won 2-1 against GOAT Aussies at home in 2005
Lost 0-2 to Pakistan away in 2005
Drew 1-1 against a strong Indian team away in 2006

Now to England's results under Strauss/Cook from 2009-2013
Lost 0-1 against WI away in 2009
Won 2-1 against Australia at home in 2009
Drew 1-1 against a strong SA away in 2009/10
Won 3-1 against Pakistan at home in 2010
Won 3-1 against Australia away in 2010/11
Won 4-0 against India at home in 2011
Lost 0-3 against Pakistan away in UAE in 2012
Drew 1-1 against SL away in 2012
Lost 0-2 against SA at home in 2012
Won 2-1 against India away in 2012
Won 3-0 against Australia at home in 2013

So 2 series losses for Vaughan/Flintoff's side compared to 3 series losses for Strauss/Cook's side.

Strauss/Cook's team did well in India/SL compared to Vaughan/Flintoff's team, but Vaughan/Flintoff's team did better against SA (both home and away) and against WI away too. Strauss's team lost in WI in 2009, that counts against them.

One result both sides have in common is that both were thrashed by Pakistan when Vaughan's team in Pakistan in 2005 and Strauss's team in UAE in 2012.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Anderson Broad and Stokes? Attacks include a spinner as well and the gap between Swann and Giles is colossal

Freddie as a bowler is much superior to Stokes though Swann is miles better than Giles.

 

[Caesar]

I think Vaughan’s team at their best was clearly the better side

Trescothick, Trott, Flintoff, S. Jones had injury/illness and form problems throughout their careers, but when they were good they were magical

The fact that 2005 series was lightning in a bottle is part of what made it so special

 

[Trojan90]

Does Stokes even come into the discussion? Came in at the end of 2013 (end of peak Team Cook). Never played with Trott, barely played with Pietersen, Swann and Prior and debuted in a team with Carberry in it in the middle of the 'Johnson Series'.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Does Stokes even come into the discussion? Came in at the end of 2013 (end of peak Team Cook). Never played with Trott, barely played with Pietersen, Swann and Prior and debuted in a team with Carberry in it in the middle of the 'Johnson Series'.

Yeah, you make a good point. Stokes didn't play in Strauss's team or Peak Cook's team. He debuted in the famous Johnson Ashes in 2013/14.

 

[The hands of stone]

Flintoff is the difference in those sides . Thats why 2005 pips 2010 . Also add in Harmison and S.Jones having career peak career series.

Cant underestimate how well Vaughn captained that 2005 side . Planning was first rate along with the execution but his ability to have them believe they could win really was series breaker on its on .

 

[PhatBoy]

Simon Jones is probably the best swing bowler in my lifetime

There was a fairly decent South African bloke who retired not long ago

 

[PhatBoy]

Moron that I am - I also blame the alcohol I’ve consumed this weekend - I somehow tried to factor Ben Stokes into this equation forgetting that he wasn’t even playing at that stage

 

[Caesar]

There was a fairly decent South African bloke who retired not long ago

Steyn was great, but he didn’t make the ball talk like Jones

 

[PhatBoy]

Steyn was great, but he didn’t make the ball talk like Jones

Volume of swing wouldn’t be the deciding factor in such a comparison though would it? Warne couldn’t spin it like macgill but he was a better leggie

 

[Caesar]

Volume of swing wouldn’t be the deciding factor in such a comparison though would it? Warne couldn’t spin it like macgill but he was a better leggie

Steyn bowled 150 clicks, he certainly swung the ball but I’m not sure I’d call him a swing bowler

 

[PhatBoy]

Steyn bowled 150 clicks, he certainly swung the ball but I’m not sure I’d call him a swing bowler

You are a knowledgeable poster - I’ve read your comments before and they’re usually very insightful. Did you actually watch much of Steyn?

Shaun Pollock summed it up pretty well:

“l cannot have enough respect for Steyn. His ability to shape the ball upfront at high speed and then come back later and reverse it” said Pollock.