Which has been the greatest club ever??

[WCE2000]

Try and be honest, and not turn it into a populatiry contest.

 

[Dan26]

Before the Port Adelaide supporters come on here and start complaining, this question obviously refers to the VFL-AFL competiton, that has run since 1897.

Anyway, it is an extraordinarily difficult decision to pick one of those three clubs. You can make a case for all three.

CASE FOR CARLTON

- They have the best all-time winning percenatge (home and away games and finals). They have won 62.18% of their games. Collingwood is next on 61.60% and Essendon on 58.87%

- They have won 16 premierships. The equal most

- They have never won the wooden spoon. Essendon has won 4, and Collingwood two.

- They have superior winning records against all clubs, except Port Adelaide, which doesn't really count, because they have only played each other six times.

- They have finished on top of the ladder 17 times. The equal most along with Collingwood. Essendon has finished on top 16 times, and hopefully (for this Bombers fan) soon to be 17.


CASE FOR COLLINGWOOD

- They have made the finals more often than any other club. 72 times. Carlton have made the finals 63 times, and Essendon 57 times.

- They have played in the most Grand Finals, 37 in total, for 14 wins, and 23 losses. This is miles ahead of any other club. Carlton and Essendon have both played in 29 Grand Finals for 16 wins and 13 losses each.

- They have won the msot consecutive premierships. Four in a row from 1927, through to 1930. Essendon has never won more than two in a row.

- They have finished on top of the ladder 17 times. The equal most along with Carlton. Essendon has finished on top 16 times (soon to be 17 he he he )


CASE FOR ESSENDON

- They have won 16 premierships, which is the equal most with Carlton.

- They have the best premiership strike rate. Essendon didn't compete in 1916-17, due to World War one, so Essendon's 16 flags have come in 102 seasons, which is marginally superior to Carlton's 16 in 104 seasons. I'm not counting Adelaide here, because I don't think it's relevant.

- They have the best single record in a season. 24 out of 25 equals 96%. No club has won 96% of mathces in one year before.

- Essendon's post war record (1946 onwards) of premierships, Grand Finals and finals apearances is superior to any other club. This is relevant, because the early part of the century up until 1925 consisted of only 8 or 9 teams.

- They have the biggest supporter base of the three Victorian clubs in question, having overtaken Collingwood in the early to mid 1990s and have now firmly established themselves as the biggest "off-field" club of the three clubs in question.

- Essendon has WON more finals matches than any other club. They have won 64 finals matches. Collingwood has won 63, and Carlton has won 62. How close is that!!!!


As you can see, it is virtually impossible to separate them. Even though the Magpies have won two less premierships, their incredible 37 Grand Finals and 72 years in the finals, makes their case very strong. I think it all depends on how you measure success. If you measure it on all-time wins, covering all games, then Carlton is your team.

If you measure success on consistently making the finals, the Collingwood is your team. If you measure success on premierships, then Essendon (with a marginally better strike rate than Carlton) is your team. The Bombers have also won the most finals matches, which is a strong reason for selecting them.

I selected Essendon (as if I wasn't going to), but to be honest, it is virtually impossible to separate them. They all have their pros and cons. Maybe the Blues if I were totally objective, given that they have the all-time best win-ratio and no wooden spoons. But even then, you look at them and see they have been in the finals 63 years, which is behind Collingwood's 72 years, so it's hard to say.

I think Carlton supporters can probably mount the strongest case, but it is far from conclusive Blue-Baggers.

 

[QT]

What the FAAA?

Originally posted by Dan25



CASE FOR ESSENDON

They have won the most premierships. Equal with Carlton.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE???

Anyway greatest club........ADELAIDE!

But outta that 3....Collingwood

 

[Same Old's]

WCE2000,

Sorry for being pedantic but shouldn't the question ask "Who is the most successful club ever?". I know that by using the word "greatest" that you imply successful. However, I guess most supporters view their clubs as the "greatest" but not necessarily the most successful.

Anyway should be interesting!

 

[Dan26]

I think I've presented a pretty objective analysis of the three clubs, and their respective pros and cons. Hopefully, people will read it, and base their judgements on it.

 

[CJ]

Originally posted by Dan25
Before the Port Adelaide supporters come on here and start complaining, this question obviously refers to the VFL-AFL competiton, that has run since 1897.

Anyway, it is an extraordinarily difficult decision to pick one of those three clubs. You can make a case for all three.

CASE FOR CARLTON

- They have the best all-time winning percenatge (home and away games and finals). They have won 62.18% of their games. Collingwood is next on 61.60% and Essendon on 58.87%

- They have won 16 premierships. The equal most

- They have never won the wooden spoon. Essendon has won 4, and Collingwood two.

- They have superior winning records against all clubs, except Port Adelaide, which doesn't really count, because they have only played each other six times.

- They have finished on top of the ladder 17 times. The equal most along with Collingwood. Essendon has finished on top 16 times, and hopefully (for this Bombers fan) soon to be 17.


CASE FOR COLLINGWOOD

- They have made the finals more often than any other club. 72 times. Carlton have made the finals 63 times, and Essendon 57 times.

- They have played in the most Grand Finals, 37 in total, for 14 wins, and 23 losses. This is miles ahead of any other club. Carlton and Essendon have both played in 29 Grand Finals for 16 wins and 13 losses each.

- They have won the msot consecutive premierships. Four in a row from 1927, through to 1930. Essendon has never won more than two in a row.

- They have finished on top of the ladder 17 times. The equal most along with Carlton. Essendon has finished on top 16 times (soon to be 17 he he he )


CASE FOR ESSENDON

- They have won 16 premierships, which is the equal most with Carlton.

- They have the best premiership strike rate. Essendon didn't compete in 1916-17, due to World War one, so Essendon's 16 flags have come in 102 seasons, which is marginally superior to Carlton's 16 in 104 seasons. I'm not counting Adelaide here, because I don't think it's relevant.

- They have the best single record in a season. 24 out of 25 equals 96%. No club has won 96% of mathces in one year before.

- Essendon's post war record (1946 onwards) of premierships, Grand Finals and finals apearances is superior to any other club. This is relevant, because the early part of the century up until 1925 consisted of only 8 or 9 teams.

- They have the biggest supporter base of the three Victorian clubs in question, having overtaken Collingwood in the early to mid 1990s and have now firmly established themselves as the biggest "off-field" club of the three clubs in question.

- Essendon has WON more finals matches than any other club. They have won 64 finals matches. Collingwood has won 63, and Carlton has won 62. How close is that!!!!


As you can see, it is virtually impossible to separate them. Even though the Magpies have won two less premierships, their incredible 37 Grand Finals and 72 years in the finals, makes their case very strong. I think it all depends on how you measure success. If you measure it on all-time wins, covering all games, then Carlton is your team.

If you measure success on consistently making the finals, the Collingwood is your team. If you measure success on premierships, then Essendon (with a marginally better strike rate than Carlton) is your team. The Bombers have also won the most finals matches, which is a strong reason for selecting them.

I selected Essendon (as if I wasn't going to), but to be honest, it is virtually impossible to separate them. They all have their pros and cons. Maybe the Blues if I were totally objective, given that they have the all-time best win-ratio and no wooden spoons. But even then, you look at them and see they have been in the finals 63 years, which is behind Collingwood's 72 years, so it's hard to say.

I think Carlton supporters can probably mount the strongest case, but it is far from conclusive Blue-Baggers.

Well done Dan, That would probably be you best post yet IMHO!

And for obvious reasons I voted Collingwood. GO THE PIES!!!!!!

 

[play on]

I may be wrong, but I think Collingwood have made the finals 14 times in a row. I think that is a record. Correct me if I am wrong.


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Play on says the umpire
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[Smokin]

Well I think you would have to look at Premierships more than anything else, because at the end of the day that is what all clubs aim for - the flag! Clubs dont necessarily aim to be at top form from round 1, but to be playing at the top of their game come finals. [Under this criteria, Essendon & Carlton]

Finals obviously must be looked at as well, as you cant win a flag without making the finals. However, not only making finals but winning them as well - every year teams scrape through to the last spot and alot of the time they are just making up numbers - losing convincingly in the first final. [Under this criteria, all 3! - but Collingwoods Grand Final strike rate isnt fantastic)

Also, the time period of the clubs success. A club who has been succesful most decades, winning flags in most decades and generally not going a long time between flags shows a club has a great winning culture, demand of success and resources implemented to ensure the long-term success of the club. [Under this criteria, Essendon and Carlton]

I feel that over the past 104 odd years of VFL-AFL competition, Essendon and Carlton have been over time the best clubs - both on and off the field. Collingwood were very succesful in the first 50 or so years of the comp, but the second half of the century leaves a little to be desired! (Need I mention the Colliwobbles??)

There are two certainties here - All 3 clubs have been unbelievably succesful and all could be considered the best - and no other club is close to either of these 3!

 

[play on]

Originally posted by Smokin

There are two certainties here - All 3 clubs have been unbelievably successful and all could be considered the best - and no other club is close to either of these 3! [/B]

Watch the Port supporters disagree with that.


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Play on says the umpire
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[Smokin]

Originally posted by play on


Watch the Port supporters disagree with that.


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Play on says the umpire
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Haha - I am talking about VFL-AFL clubs here - not inferior leagues. If they bring in Port I suppose Southport in QLD can be argued for - they currently have over 50,000 members which is the biggest sporting club in Australia I believe.

 

[WCE2000]

Originally posted by play on
I may be wrong, but I think Collingwood have made the finals 14 times in a row. I think that is a record. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah, they hold the record for the most consecutive finals. Most people consider it 14, but the AFL has it done as 15 (1897-1911). But in 1898 all 8 sides made it to the final series, so it wasn't really all that hard for Collingwood to make it that year.

 

[vanders]

Originally posted by WCE2000


Yeah, they hold the record for the most consecutive finals. Most people consider it 14, but the AFL has it done as 15 (1897-1911). But in 1898 all 8 sides made it to the final series, so it wasn't really all that hard for Collingwood to make it that year.

As far as i know, Hawthorn hold the record for most consecutive finals appearances, thats not being bias either, thats just my understanding.

I read that they made it 15 years in a row, correct me if im wrong, but yeah, thats what ive always thought!

 

[choppy]

I refuse to vote on this as I do not wish to give credit to any of them

 

[Darky]

Originally posted by vanders


As far as i know, Hawthorn hold the record for most consecutive finals appearances, thats not being bias either, thats just my understanding.

I read that they made it 15 years in a row, correct me if im wrong, but yeah, thats what ive always thought!

Hawthorn made the finals 13 seasons in a row, from 1982 to 1994.

 

[Frodo]

Are we talking AFL, VFL, SANFL or WAFL?

If AFL then WCE are supreme. 2 Flags and probably 4 if not for home finals being played in Melbourne.

 

[Mrs Asgardian]

The poll is non-sensical, you have asked which has been the greatest club ever, and then you exclude the correct answer from the options available

Therefore no choice from the narrow range allowed is appropriate

 

[X_box_X]

If you're talking about best winning percentage, Carlton.
If your talking about Most Consistant, Collingwood.
If you're talking about Most premierships, Essendon.
BUT THE GREATEST I WOULD SAY COLLINGWOOD.

 

[Dan26]

As Darky said, Hawthorn made the finals for 13 years in a row from 1982-1994.

Collingwood was among the leagues top four teams for the first 15 years of the competiton (1897-1911) - 15 years in a row. This is a record, but there is a catch:

The "finals system" in use at the time was unusual. There was one year, for example that Collingwood finished 3rd, but didn't play in a final. The minor premiers played one of the other teams in an uunsual "sectional ladder" scenario. So, technically, Collingwod didn't play in the finals that year. However, they WERE among the top four teams, so for all intents and purposes we say that they made the finals, even though technically they didn't play a finals match. Because the final four existed for so long (1931-1971), the AFL seems to have retrospectively acknowledged any team that finished in the top four before that team as having made the finals. This is fair enough, because it proves they were among the top four teams, even if they didn't technically play a finals match.

So, when we say that Collingwood have made the finals in 72 separate years, it really means that they have been amongst the top 4 teams (or top 5 teams from 1972-91, top 6 from 1992-93, and top 8 from 1994-2001) 72 times.

I think it is okay to count this as "making the finals" in those early years, because they were among the top 4 teams, so it should count.

The person that said that winning premierships is the only thing that counts, is wrong IMHO. Only one team can win the flag. There are plenty of teams who don't win the flag that have had successful years. Part of being a good team is being up there in the finals year after year. This is why North Melbourne have been so admired over the last eight seasons. Other clubs try to emulate their consistency.

It is possible, in theory for a club to have only made the finals twenty times (which is poor), but they could have won 20 premierships, and "won" 84 wooden spoons. Their all-time win-loss ratio could be 30%. I don't this club would be the greatest of all-time. Premierships count, but so does consistency.

 

[dee_girl9]

well for some unbeknown reason i think Collingwood, but i aint gonna vote, cos i cant be bothered.

And Dan your posts are long drawn out, and a waste of space. IMO. i just think u should learn to write concisely and accurately. thats just my opnion tho.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Dicken Cider
The poll is non-sensical, you have asked which has been the greatest club ever, and then you exclude the correct answer from the options available

Therefore no choice from the narrow range allowed is appropriate

In the AFL (which evolved from the VFL and has been running since 1897), those three clubs are the only ones that logically could be chosen.

Adelaide have only made the finals 30% of the time. They have won less than half their all-time matches, they have never ever won more than five matches in a row, they have never finished above 4th on the ladder and they have never won more than 13 home and away games.

In Adelaide's favour they have won 2 premierships in 10 completed seasons, but their are far too many negative factors, and failures in their underachieving history for them to even be reasonably considered. It's not as simple as having the best premiership strike rate. Makng the finals year after year, and being a feared force during your time in the competition is a factor too. Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon have all been feared opponents. Adelaide havn't.

Adelaide deservadly beat St.Kilda and North Melbourne on the day in 1997 and 1998, but those four hous of football don't make Adelaide the greatest club in the history of the VFL-AFL. You'd be deluding yourself. You've got to take into account ALL factors. Consistency, finals appearances (relative to your time in the competition) all-time winning percentage, top spot finishes, as well as premiership strike rate, should all be taken into account.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Your'e Spot On

Originally posted by Dicken Cider
The poll is non-sensical, you have asked which has been the greatest club ever, and then you exclude the correct answer from the options available

Therefore no choice from the narrow range allowed is appropriate

As above... You are Spot on!!

Surely Adelaides 2 flags in 10 years (Back to Back at that) puts em right up there?
Add this years flag (which is not out of the question) and the choice is simple

How many sides have done that in the modern era?

And er... Go Crows

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by dee_girl9
well for some unbeknown reason i think Collingwood, but i aint gonna vote, cos i cant be bothered.

And Dan your posts are long drawn out, and a waste of space. IMO. i just think u should learn to write concisely and accurately. thats just my opnion tho.

I'll take on board what you said about writing concisely. That's probably a fault of mine. However, I don't need to be told to write accurately because one thing I am, is accurate. I might not always be concise, but I am accurate. Are you disputing those facts I presented for the three teams?

 

[dee_girl9]

Originally posted by Dan25


I'll take on board what you said about writing concisely. That's probably a fault of mine. However, I don't need to be told to write accurately because one thing I am, is accurate. I might not always be concise, but I am accurate. Are you disputing those facts I presented for the three teams?

In no way whatsoeva I am disputing the facts u presented, I am just saying if u wrote concisely and accurately u would be able to cut down the lengthes of your posts by nearly 50%. The accuracy is not in the facts, its in the presentation.

 

[Dan26]

You're wrong dee_girl9. Accuracy is in the facts, conciseness is in the presentation.

Did you just say accuracy is in the presentation??? That's a funny one.

Got to http://www.dictionary.com and look up the word "accuracy"

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by Dan25
As Darky said, Hawthorn made the finals for 13 years in a row from 1982-1994.

Collingwood was among the leagues top four teams for the first 15 years of the competiton (1897-1911) - 15 years in a row. This is a record, but there is a catch:

The "finals system" in use at the time was unusual. There was one year, for example that Collingwood finished 3rd, but didn't play in a final. The minor premiers played one of the other teams in an uunsual "sectional ladder" scenario. So, technically, Collingwod didn't play in the finals that year. However, they WERE among the top four teams, so for all intents and purposes we say that they made the finals, even though technically they didn't play a finals match. Because the final four existed for so long (1931-1971), the AFL seems to have retrospectively acknowledged any team that finished in the top four before that team as having made the finals. This is fair enough, because it proves they were among the top four teams, even if they didn't technically play a finals match.

So, when we say that Collingwood have made the finals in 72 separate years, it really means that they have been amongst the top 4 teams (or top 5 teams from 1972-91, top 6 from 1992-93, and top 8 from 1994-2001) 72 times.

I think it is okay to count this as "making the finals" in those early years, because they were among the top 4 teams, so it should count.

I don't agree with that AFL "rule". If a team hasn't made the finals how can you count it that they did make the finals? Yeah they were one of the top four teams but didn't make finals thus it shouldn't count that they made the finals. Since we are talking about statistics we should get it right.