Opinion Which is it? Underperforming or results true to ability?

[catempire]

I see a lot of people playing both sides of this. So put your stake in the ground...

1. We have a good enough list but something is holding us back (coaching, selection, attitude, etc.)

2. Our list is substandard and our results merely reflect that fact

And before anyone says it's both (i.e. we are not good enough to win a flag but we are still underperforming) put your stake in the ground as to where we should be right now (ladder wise and which teams we should be beating) if we played true to our ability.

 

[kickazz]

Good thread. I do recon it's a little from column A and B, but if i had to make a choice, it's that we are battling along with an ordinary list.

This in turn causes underperformance because we don't have quality players in the VFL missing out, putting pressure on the players in the seniors to perform.

Players like Guthrie, Blicavs are prime examples of the sort that have shown a bit but could be a lot better and do with some pressure from below.

Or to put a twist on a famous phrase, "it's our depth, stupid"

 

[cynical]

our list stinks, there is no depth

oldies are cooked, mid tier arent good enough and bottom tier falls away very quickly

coaching and selection is a joke, fringe players yo-yo in and out of the team, still too many talls

Taylor being moved back and forward

there is no set structure or plan

we are doing better than i expected due to our superior fitness and a bit of luck at the start of the year

 

[year of the cat]

Combination of the two.

Our list lacks depth. Take away a few regular "best 22" and we fall away severely. On our day we are capable of playing excellent footy IF everyone plays with the right attitude. But our effort is spasmodic. And that is no where near good enough to mix it with the best.

We are quite poorly coached. We lack forward system. We are far too easy to score against. We lack run. Some of these problems are due to a substandard list, some of it is due to inadequate coaching.

We have failed to bring in an effective crumbing forward and one or two that provide decent forward defensive pressure for at least 3 or 4 years now. Not good enough. It was an problem area we've recognised for too long and it still hasn't been addressed.

We've failed to develop one or two tall backs to take over from Lonergan and Taylor. Henderson has been a terrific addition but with him out, our backline is a shambles. Why hasn't Gardner been getting a go? It's not as if Lonergan and Taylor have played A-grade footy these last two years.

Scott strikes me as a stubborn coach who lacks imagination. He is reactive rather than pro-active. When was the last time you saw a move that was inspired? His communication via the media is patronising and arrogant. He's appears bereft of ideas or solutions.

In my opinion we need a fresh approach at the club. Wells and Cook have been terrific servants but I think it's possibly time for some new, young blood. Scott shouldn't have been signed this early. It was a mistake. We are stuck with him for another 2 years so unless the club is prepared to pay him out (they won't) then we'll have to make do. But he won't get another contract.

We need to now go back to the draft and recruit for the future rather than top up. We aren't winning a flag anytime soon so lets reload for 2021 and beyond. Sort out who is up to the task of playing AFL and get rid of the rest.

 

[Catgirl]

Although our list has undergone substantial changes, we have, for the most part, retained our core and made some handy additions (the most notable of the lot being a Brownlow medallist). We made a PF last year on the back of our talent and luck created by aforesaid talent. But I'll say it again. As long as our players start slow, as long as they do not possess the capacity to play for more than 1/4 a game, as long as they do not develop the determination to win that all other sides seem to have, we will continue to underperform.

It is all mental in my opinion. Equip our list with the brimming ambition of, say a GWS, WB or Melbourne, and maybe a flag could be more than a pipedream.

Until then, we'll continue on our merry way, being humiliated by lower placed teams and in finals. It won't be a matter of IF we are to be embarrassed, but by whom.

I see us being a bottom half of the 8 side if we pick up our game. We look to be in a bit of an anomalic form slump though.

 

[The Casey Cat]

I see a lot of people playing both sides of this. So put your stake in the ground...

1. We have a good enough list but something is holding us back (coaching, selection, attitude, etc.)

2. Our list is substandard and our results merely reflect that fact

And before anyone says it's both (i.e. we are not good enough to win a flag but we are still underperforming) put your stake in the ground as to where we should be right now (ladder wise and which teams we should be beating) if we played true to our ability.

Really does seem to be a fair amount of both. Sounds like a cop out but when there are so many slow, old, inconsistent and or bog ordinary players in the side and the VFL boys got smashed seems our list is average.

But on the other hand average list or not a side should not be as easy to play against. You don't have to be great to play with a half decent defensive attitude. Our tackle counts/efforts in the first half of a lot of our matches have had to be seen to be believed. Even when the numbers haven't been necessarily low the actual tackles have been bull shit and opposition have disposed and fought their way out of them easy (Saints and Pies games) so something not right there.

I can accept being 5 and 3. Hell even 4 and 4 and at least trying to play an honest team brand of footy but we are not and that isn't good.

 

[mcwilrob]

Combination of the two.

Our list lacks depth. Take away a few regular "best 22" and we fall away severely. On our day we are capable of playing excellent footy IF everyone plays with the right attitude. But our effort is spasmodic. And that is no where near good enough to mix it with the best.

We are quite poorly coached. We lack forward system. We are far too easy to score against. We lack run. Some of these problems are due to a substandard list, some of it is due to inadequate coaching.

We have failed to bring in an effective crumbing forward and one or two that provide decent forward defensive pressure for at least 3 or 4 years now. Not good enough. It was an problem area we've recognised for too long and it still hasn't been addressed.

We've failed to develop one or two tall backs to take over from Lonergan and Taylor. Henderson has been a terrific addition but with him out, our backline is a shambles. Why hasn't Gardner been getting a go? It's not as if Lonergan and Taylor have played A-grade footy these last two years.

Scott strikes me as a stubborn coach who lacks imagination. He is reactive rather than pro-active. When was the last time you saw a move that was inspired? His communication via the media is patronising and arrogant. He's appears bereft of ideas or solutions.

In my opinion we need a fresh approach at the club. Wells and Cook have been terrific servants but I think it's possibly time for some new, young blood. Scott shouldn't have been signed this early. It was a mistake. We are stuck with him for another 2 years so unless the club is prepared to pay him out (they won't) then we'll have to make do. But he won't get another contract.

We need to now go back to the draft and recruit for the future rather than top up. We aren't winning a flag anytime soon so lets reload for 2021 and beyond. Sort out who is up to the task of playing AFL and get rid of the rest.

Bolded is on the money for mine...

 

[catempire]

Combination of the two.

Our list lacks depth. Take away a few regular "best 22" and we fall away severely. On our day we are capable of playing excellent footy IF everyone plays with the right attitude. But our effort is spasmodic. And that is no where near good enough to mix it with the best.

We are quite poorly coached. We lack forward system. We are far too easy to score against. We lack run. Some of these problems are due to a substandard list, some of it is due to inadequate coaching.

We have failed to bring in an effective crumbing forward and one or two that provide decent forward defensive pressure for at least 3 or 4 years now. Not good enough. It was an problem area we've recognised for too long and it still hasn't been addressed.

We've failed to develop one or two tall backs to take over from Lonergan and Taylor. Henderson has been a terrific addition but with him out, our backline is a shambles. Why hasn't Gardner been getting a go? It's not as if Lonergan and Taylor have played A-grade footy these last two years.

Scott strikes me as a stubborn coach who lacks imagination. He is reactive rather than pro-active. When was the last time you saw a move that was inspired? His communication via the media is patronising and arrogant. He's appears bereft of ideas or solutions.

In my opinion we need a fresh approach at the club. Wells and Cook have been terrific servants but I think it's possibly time for some new, young blood. Scott shouldn't have been signed this early. It was a mistake. We are stuck with him for another 2 years so unless the club is prepared to pay him out (they won't) then we'll have to make do. But he won't get another contract.

We need to now go back to the draft and recruit for the future rather than top up. We aren't winning a flag anytime soon so lets reload for 2021 and beyond. Sort out who is up to the task of playing AFL and get rid of the rest.

With the quality of list we have right now what output should we expect? Ladder position for instance.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Structure, system, team selection and lack of depth.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Combination of the two.

Our list lacks depth. Take away a few regular "best 22" and we fall away severely. On our day we are capable of playing excellent footy IF everyone plays with the right attitude. But our effort is spasmodic. And that is no where near good enough to mix it with the best.

We are quite poorly coached. We lack forward system. We are far too easy to score against. We lack run. Some of these problems are due to a substandard list, some of it is due to inadequate coaching.

We have failed to bring in an effective crumbing forward and one or two that provide decent forward defensive pressure for at least 3 or 4 years now. Not good enough. It was an problem area we've recognised for too long and it still hasn't been addressed.

We've failed to develop one or two tall backs to take over from Lonergan and Taylor. Henderson has been a terrific addition but with him out, our backline is a shambles. Why hasn't Gardner been getting a go? It's not as if Lonergan and Taylor have played A-grade footy these last two years.

Scott strikes me as a stubborn coach who lacks imagination. He is reactive rather than pro-active. When was the last time you saw a move that was inspired? His communication via the media is patronising and arrogant. He's appears bereft of ideas or solutions.

In my opinion we need a fresh approach at the club. Wells and Cook have been terrific servants but I think it's possibly time for some new, young blood. Scott shouldn't have been signed this early. It was a mistake. We are stuck with him for another 2 years so unless the club is prepared to pay him out (they won't) then we'll have to make do. But he won't get another contract.

We need to now go back to the draft and recruit for the future rather than top up. We aren't winning a flag anytime soon so lets reload for 2021 and beyond. Sort out who is up to the task of playing AFL and get rid of the rest.

I got berated in here last year for calling Scott arrogant.

Mackie, Taylor and Lonergan were finished last year. We simply can't play the style of game Scott wants us to play with 3 liabilities down back. It's why we fall away come finals when the heat is turned up.

We need to play Gardner now ... ready or not.

 

[The Casey Cat]

I got berated in here last year for calling Scott arrogant.

Mackie, Taylor and Lonergan were finished last year. We simply can't play the style of game Scott wants us to play with 3 liabilities down back. It's why we fall away come finals when the heat is turned up.

We need to play Gardner now ... ready or not.

I'd persist a little longer with Taylor down back with Hendo and ONE of Stewart or Kolo. But yes if stinks look to Gardiner and take the pain that comes with more youth.

 

[Seeds]

Either case Scott has failed.

Either through topping up at the expense of the future to create a list that still aint good enough or failing to get a talented premiership level list to the right level.

Either case. Heads must roll.

 

[year of the cat]

With the quality of list we have right now what output should we expect? Ladder position for instance.

I still think we are capable of finishing 6-8 which is where I had them pre-season. But we are going no where. Whilst fans of some other teams would be happy just making finals, I don't think that should be the Geelong attitude - of just making up the numbers. Depending on how we fare with injuries from here on in we could finish anywhere between 6-12. If it's outside the eight then it's a disaster having traded this years first away.

But it's not just a problem with our list we have. We don't seem to be capable of developing our players anymore like we did in the 2000's. Name one player we have drafted that has developed into a top liner in this group? There isn't one. Duncan would be the closest. Menzel probably with a more fortunate past. That's it.

 

[TEDDY24INC]

Underperforming

 

[year of the cat]

I got berated in here last year for calling Scott arrogant.

Mackie, Taylor and Lonergan were finished last year. We simply can't play the style of game Scott wants us to play with 3 liabilities down back. It's why we fall away come finals when the heat is turned up.

We need to play Gardner now ... ready or not.

Not by me. Many of his press conferences I've found excruciating for a few years now.

 

[mcwilrob]

Not by me. Many of his press conferences I've found excruciating for a few years now.

Yep - reminds me of many a politician - says what he's thinks people want to hear but ineffective or little follow up, results, etc.

 

[MelbCat]

How do you go from moving the ball so quickly out of defence in the first 5 weeks and not letting teams in to this slow moving crap in the past few weeks?
Getting flogged in the first quarter week in week out surely points to structure and lack of coaching ability. C.Scott has no plan B.

 

[Willo_]

The results are probably true to ability for who we have available... Our depth was always the issue, the pig headed people who claim 'We made the prelim last year! We are ok' won't admit that we had an absolutely dream run with injury last year, and this year the injuries we are getting are in the worst areas that expose us, our defensive pressure forward, our aged backline... Gregson/Linc/Hendo/Parfitt play every game and we likely look different.
As it is the ball hits the deck in our forward line and it gets swept out so easily, Doms and Taylor look more and more tired and slow each week.

It is hard to put a stake in the ground as it is a bit of everything, our best is good enough to be a good side but we need luck on our side injury wise as the list drops away really quickly after the top 20 players.
and with players missing our game plan weaknesses are really exposed, the holes in our defense are stark and we lack imagination when under pressure. Seriously the kick long up the middle every kick out option is f**king horrendous (at least that did get changed up at half time) and kicking it backwards to Doms is about the worst play in our book.
I think our players at the moment are playing with no confidence, and very little enjoyment as well.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Bit of everything. A thing that is understated is assistants though.
Weve had Lappin and Knights for ages and then lost/turfed Caracalla and didn't replace him.
We didn't hire a FT forward or ruck coach either so it can't be the footy dept cap.
I just don't see how having 3 ex teammates for years Lappin,Caracalla, O'bree is a good strategy.
The best teams have good right hand men that have their own ideas and are willing to challenge the Snr Coach.
Scott wasn't able to make the exit interviews last year so he obviously has a lot on his plate (apparently with very good reason), it's just really strange to me we didn't try and get another really good assistant coach.

 

[you pick one]

Poor rucks no CHF, ageing back line, lack of pace all over the ground and sub standard ball skills,f--ked if I can put a finger on what's wrong.

 

[Cataholic]

I got berated in here last year for calling Scott arrogant.

Mackie, Taylor and Lonergan were finished last year. We simply can't play the style of game Scott wants us to play with 3 liabilities down back. It's why we fall away come finals when the heat is turned up.

We need to play Gardner now ... ready or not.

Yep, I agree. They're cooked, and it's time to find replacements.

The first 5 games were a false dawn, and the reality of where we truly sit is coming to the fore. I suspect we'll tumble further down the ladder yet, as we are exposed for what / where we truly are.

For the first time I think Blitz has to go, and it's time to move past Motlop. He's most likely gone end of year anyhow.

Our depth looks ice thin, and for the first time I'm beginning to think CS may not have the answers on how to move forward with the list, strategy and game plan.

 

[dangerwood]

I think we are definitely lacking talent and we are not a great side purely on paper. Having said that, 13 tackles in a half is more than just a lack of talent, somethings not right with the set up.

Im not a stats man but seeing we had more contested ball and more inside 50s suggests to me that the effort is there. 13 tackles says the set ups wrong.

 

[Cataholic]

Poor rucks no CHF, ageing back line, lack of pace all over the ground and sub standard ball skills,f--ked if I can put a finger on what's wrong.

You just did, plus I'm not sure CS knows how glean any performance out of them. The boys seem dejected, and lost.

 

[mcwilrob]

Yep, I agree. They're cooked, and it's time to find replacements.

The first 5 games were a false dawn, and the reality of where we truly sit is coming to the fore. I suspect we'll tumble further down the ladder yet, as we are exposed for what / where we truly are.

For the first time I think Blitz has to go, and it's time to move past Motlop. He's most likely gone end of year anyhow.

Our depth looks ice thin, and for the first time I'm beginning to think CS may not have the answers on how to move forward with the list, strategy and game plan.

Been on that bus for a while now. And the club has re-signed him, great

 

[catempire]

How do you go from moving the ball so quickly out of defence in the first 5 weeks and not letting teams in to this slow moving crap in the past few weeks?

Huge question for me.

It can't be by design so it's either players not being able to do as they're asked or the message not being communicated effectively.