Analysis Which position is it easier to win the first final from?

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kerrazy

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Stupid thread I know (feel free to delete if so) but this question has got me thinking (apologies again I'm drunk): Who has the easier team to play against to win the first final(no other game just the first match of the finals) : 5th place playing against 8th or 1st place playing against 4th?

Tonight's and last night's game has made me realise the separation of quality between 5th - 8th and 1st - 4th.

Tigers smashed hawthorn to pieces and Melbourne have pretty much demonstrated their quality against a team that looks completely unfit for finals (Geelong) with the game being over at quarter time.
 

whatis

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Impossible to say IMO. Comes down to match ups, form, injuries, weather. Due to the draw even s**t teams can sneak into the four some years.
 

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Rowan18

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Stupid thread I know (feel free to delete if so) but this question has got me thinking (apologies again I'm drunk): Who has the easier team to play against to win the first final(no other game just the first match of the finals) : 5th place playing against 8th or 1st place playing against 4th?

Tonight's and last night's game has made me realise the separation of quality between 5th - 8th and 1st - 4th.

Tigers smashed hawthorn to pieces and Melbourne have pretty much demonstrated their quality against a team that looks completely unfit for finals (Geelong) with the game being over at quarter time.
Melbourne were awful, Geelong were just embarrassing. Hawks will smash them.
 

dave123

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People usually write off the team that loses the first final, so it should be interesting. They've also lost their best defender in Stratton.


Dees are confident

They have beaten wce,gws cats

I think they’ll dispatch hawks ......easily
 

dave123

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Impossible to say IMO. Comes down to match ups, form, injuries, weather. Due to the draw even s**t teams can sneak into the four some years.


I feel this was the weakest top 4 ever

Even us ....we are good side but not a greatone

Richmond are not Essendon 2000 or lions of 03 ........

This is the weakest top I’ve ever seen ...the expansion has really diluted the talent pool

With all due respect hawks are not that good anymore
 

ioppolo

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I feel this was the weakest top 4 ever

Even us ....we are good side but not a greatone

Richmond are not Essendon 2000 or lions of 03 ........

This is the weakest top I’ve ever seen ...the expansion has really diluted the talent pool

With all due respect hawks are not that good anymore
Yeah I kinda agree here. Nobody rated Richmond last season, here they are favourites to go back to back. I don't rate Collingwood or Melbourne (though next year Melbourne will be a force), Hawks are very average. A full strength GWS would be second or third premiership favourites but injuries have destroyed them. Swans have a good list but that midfield is ageing a bit
 
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I feel this was the weakest top 4 ever

Even us ....we are good side but not a greatone

Richmond are not Essendon 2000 or lions of 03 ........

This is the weakest top I’ve ever seen ...the expansion has really diluted the talent pool

With all due respect hawks are not that good anymore

It's harder than ever to make finals with 18 teams in the comp. If anything, your perception that the top 4 are weak is an indication of how close the top 8 sides are (which is what the AFL have been striving for).

On us specifically, we've had our butts kicked by injuries this year. Add NN & Gaff to our finals side and we're scary good. Add NN & JK to our whole 2018 and I dare say we'd have finished top.
 

dave123

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It's harder than ever to make finals with 18 teams in the comp. If anything, your perception that the top 4 are weak is an indication of how close the top 8 sides are (which is what the AFL have been striving for).

On us specifically, we've had our butts kicked by injuries this year. Add NN & Gaff to our finals side and we're scary good. Add NN & JK to our whole 2018 and I dare say we'd have finished top.
What I meant is individual side isnt as string as sides from the 90s and 00's...

The best talent went to gws and gcs sides for 4 years...

Its not bagging us but seriously even Richmond wouldn't get within 5 goals of the lions of 03....
 

domus

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What I meant is individual side isnt as string as sides from the 90s and 00's...

The best talent went to gws and gcs sides for 4 years...

Its not bagging us but seriously even Richmond wouldn't get within 5 goals of the lions of 03....

I think people always look at the past through rose coloured glasses. The mighty Lions you refer to and some consider to be one of the all time great teams was a whisker away from losing to a very ordinary Collingwood side that played with heart and passion in the 2002 GF. In 2003 we beat them again in the second semi. We have had teams since who have more class than our 2002/2003 GF sides. How is this possible if that was such a golden era and the quality of footy was so much higher?
 

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dave123

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Yeah I kinda agree here. Nobody rated Richmond last season, here they are favourites to go back to back. I don't rate Collingwood or Melbourne (though next year Melbourne will be a force), Hawks are very average. A full strength GWS would be second or third premiership favourites but injuries have destroyed them. Swans have a good list but that midfield is ageing a bit
.


The cureent top four sides playing would get hammered if they were playing the lions of 03 or even swans 05...or geelong 07..or hawks of 08...

The talent has been spread very thinly....so.many crap games....we want to chanheethe rules...

The reason we have crap games is tbe talent jas been spread so thin average players get a game now....and multiple in each team.
 

dave123

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I think people always look at the past through rose coloured glasses. The mighty Lions you refer to and some consider to be one of the all time great teams was a whisker away from losing to a very ordinary Collingwood side that played with heart and passion in the 2002 GF. In 2003 we beat them again in the second semi. We have had teams since who have more class than our 2002/2003 GF sides. How is this possible if that was such a golden era and the quality of footy was so much higher?
Im talking pure talent across the 22 players....

And frankly the game was better to watch lol...why do you think they are trying to change the rules to recreate that ?....

Aker voss lappin....black wouod destroy martin and cochin and co....

Sorry they would..

Go back and have a look at the 22nd.player in thise sides...

Have a look at your 22 player now
..
 

domus

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Im talking pure talent across the 22 players....

And frankly the game was better to watch lol...why do you think they are trying to change the rules to recreate that ?....

Aker voss lappin....black wouod destroy martin and cochin and co....

Sorry they would..

Go back and have a look at the 22nd.player in thise sides...

Have a look at your 22 player now
..
Sorry-I think the top teams of today would compete very well with the best of the past. The sky is always falling in the AFL according to fans. We had Rupert Betheras, Ryan Lonie, Karl Steinfort, Paul Licuria and Steve Mckee as our ruckman. Grundy would destroy McKee and our current midfield would be more than a match for our 2002 midfield. One day people will be comparing the players of 2030 to the guns of Richmond-Martin, Cotchin, Prestia etc...and raving about the way the game used to be.:)
 

dave123

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Sorry-I think the top teams of today would compete very well with the best of the past. The sky is always falling in the AFL according to fans. We had Rupert Betheras, Ryan Lonie, Karl Steinfort, Paul Licuria and Steve Mckee as our ruckman. Grundy would destroy McKee and our current midfield would be more than a match for our 2002 midfield. One day people will be comparing the players of 2030 to the guns of Richmond-Martin, Cotchin, Prestia etc...and raving about the way the game used to be.:)


its talent pool ...if those players trained and had the diets of today’s players they would kill any side today .....sorry but today’s top 4 would tnhold a candle to those sides .......the depth of talent was incredible
 

dave123

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I think people always look at the past through rose coloured glasses. The mighty Lions you refer to and some consider to be one of the all time great teams was a whisker away from losing to a very ordinary Collingwood side that played with heart and passion in the 2002 GF. In 2003 we beat them again in the second semi. We have had teams since who have more class than our 2002/2003 GF sides. How is this possible if that was such a golden era and the quality of footy was so much higher?


Ok simply because of this reason

The talent pool was not spread so thin .....

Look st their defense ...leaps mal Michael ...Scott brothers ..white

Forwards Bradshaw...brown ..LYNCH

Lappin... Voss black ...Ackerman’s ......

Their depth was incredible .....and they with modern training, diets ..recovery.....would destroy Richmond and west coast of today


Sorry Judd Kerr cousins ...pisses all over MARTIN and Cotchin

Sorry but the depth of talent in the best sides is nothing like it was .......

The game itself isn’t worse ....because players now are full time......finely tuned athletes ....where nothing is left unchecked ....diet....alcohol....recovery.....psychology and so on


Bit on pure depth of football talent the teams of today aren’t as good ....that’s my view
 

domus

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Ok simply because of this reason

The talent pool was not spread so thin .....

Look st their defense ...leaps mal Michael ...Scott brothers ..white

Forwards Bradshaw...brown ..LYNCH

Lappin... Voss black ...Ackerman’s ......

Their depth was incredible .....and they with modern training, diets ..recovery.....would destroy Richmond and west coast of today
Again, I ask you. If this side was so intimidating and stacked with talent why did it take two shocking umpiring decisions to get them over the line in the 2002 grand final against what all astute punters would term a very workmanlike Collingwood team? This was their day to shine-stakes were very high and we were leading them with ten minutes to go. Your arguments do not impress.
 

Georgie 404

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Ok simply because of this reason

The talent pool was not spread so thin .....

Look st their defense ...leaps mal Michael ...Scott brothers ..white

Forwards Bradshaw...brown ..LYNCH

Lappin... Voss black ...Ackerman’s ......

Their depth was incredible .....and they with modern training, diets ..recovery.....would destroy Richmond and west coast of today


Sorry Judd Kerr cousins ...pisses all over MARTIN and Cotchin

Sorry but the depth of talent in the best sides is nothing like it was .......

The game itself isn’t worse ....because players now are full time......finely tuned athletes ....where nothing is left unchecked ....diet....alcohol....recovery.....psychology and so on


Bit on pure depth of football talent the teams of today aren’t as good ....that’s my view

And the Geelong team from 2007 -2011 were massive
Looked like men playing boys (would’ve been good to watch cousin kerr Judd v Geelong during that period)

Yep, the amount of teams has diluted the talent to the detriment of the game as a spectacle
Couple teams need to go
 

dave123

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And the Geelong team from 2007 -2011 were massive
Looked like men playing boys (would’ve been good to watch cousin kerr Judd v Geelong during that period)

Yep, the amount of teams has diluted the talent to the detriment of the game as a spectacle
Couple teams need to go

The erra from 97 to 2011...

Best teams ever
Lions
Geelong
Hawks
Eagles
Swans
Roos
Essendon 2000

Not in any order

Those teams would destroy teams of today
 
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dave123

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Again, I ask you. If this side was so intimidating and stacked with talent why did it take two shocking umpiring decisions to get them over the line in the 2002 grand final against what all astute punters would term a very workmanlike Collingwood team? This was their day to shine-stakes were very high and we were leading them with ten minutes to go. Your arguments do not impress.


Have a look on google champ....says lions premiers 01-03

Scoreboard doesn't lie. ...

You can bitch n moan all you like.

Essendon of 2000 would destroy richmond .....
Again, I ask you. If this side was so intimidating and stacked with talent why did it take two shocking umpiring decisions to get them over the line in the 2002 grand final against what all astute punters would term a very workmanlike Collingwood team? This was their day to shine-stakes were very high and we were leading them with ten minutes to go. Your arguments do not impress.
...not impressive...who cares

But you look at essendon ..hird and lloyd...and thier on ballers would destroy richmond
 
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I think people always look at the past through rose coloured glasses. The mighty Lions you refer to and some consider to be one of the all time great teams was a whisker away from losing to a very ordinary Collingwood side that played with heart and passion in the 2002 GF. In 2003 we beat them again in the second semi. We have had teams since who have more class than our 2002/2003 GF sides. How is this possible if that was such a golden era and the quality of footy was so much higher?
I reckon you are right.

The geelong and hawks teams from 07-15 sorta spoiled us a bit with how good a footy team can be with so much talent in each club

Most gf teams have a few stars and then a fairly even consistent effort around the rest of the team - see brizzy, eagles / sydney 2004-7 and collingwood 2010-11

Its the team work that just all clicks and leads to great performances.
 

dave123

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I reckon you are right.

The geelong and hawks teams from 07-15 sorta spoiled us a bit with how good a footy team can be with so much talent in each club

Most gf teams have a few stars and then a fairly even consistent effort around the rest of the team - see brizzy, eagles / sydney 2004-7 and collingwood 2010-11

Its the team work that just all clicks and leads to great performances.


Nah ...for mine the more talent you have the more you will..

The last 20 premierships...

Only the dogs that was unexpected....

Its a cattle league...

Forget about rocking up the sale yards with skinny b grade cattle.....
 
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Interstate side winning 3 on the trot is impressive no matter which way you look at. Vic team supported have no idea about how hard it is from outside of Victoria to win GFs. Look at his year for example. Melbourne having finished 5th get a home EF, fair enough. Yet they then should be playing an away semi, but because they’re up against another Melbourne team, they get a home semi. If we had that luxury we’d be playing prelims and GFs more often. Dogs got the same benefit. Instead of having to travel all 4 weeks as an interstate side finishing 7th would, 2 of their 4 games were at home, including a home Gf they didn’t deserve. I know it’s a pointless argument cause nothing will ever change but people don’t give enough credit to non Victorian sides making and winning GFs.
 

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