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I agree. You got Shaun Burgoyne, Freo had Aaron SandilandsHaving a 37yr old on your list sways the average.
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I agree. You got Shaun Burgoyne, Freo had Aaron SandilandsHaving a 37yr old on your list sways the average.
Having a 37yr old on your list sways the average.
Most teams oldest player is probably 32 or 33. If you took out each teams oldest player the 4 years older that Burgoyne is wouldn’t change the average across 38 players that much.
The average player age is probably around 24, probably a bit older for best 22 players (and personally I think the age of your best 22 is probably a more useful r metric than total list age). If you replace Burgoyne with an average aged player, that is 13 years not 4. If you consider only best 22, then that is more than half a year onto the average from one player vs replacing him with a 24 year old. Currently there is less than 1.5 years difference between the oldest list and youngest list average ages, so if you just look at best 22, Burgoyne vs an average age player provides a pretty significant age bump to Hawthorn's best 22 average age.
Yes, if you replace Burgoyne with an average age player, make it just best 22 and don’t take away every other sides oldest player it does make a difference. Taking away Hawthorns oldest player and not every other sides doesn’t really make it a fair exercise though does it?
I'm very interested to hear your definition of an "inside mid" that doesn't use the terms clearances and contested possessions.Firstly I didn't say it was entirely contextual, I said they need to be interpreted in context. Richmond were last and nearly last for the two cited metrics, so clearly context plays a role, and only an idiot would argue otherwise. You didn't strike me as an idiot, but perhaps I was wrong.
Additionally, I didn't say Essendon had no decent inside mids because their clearances and contested possession numbers indicated that was the case, I said they had no decent inside mids because clearly they have no decent inside mids. They rely on guys better suited to other roles helping out in that respect. It was an Essendon fan who was using contested possession and clearance numbers to say something about Essendon (and Hawthorn's) inside mids without referring to context.
It's also important to look at clearance differential and Hawthorn finished dead last for that in 2019. I mean, I agree that you don't need a dominant stoppage unit to be competitive and it's only just one part of an overall gameplan, but if our inside mid unit is so terrible then why are they so much more competitive in the clearance game than Hawthorn's, despite Hawthorn having real inside mids like Worpel and O'Meara?Comparing teams on metrics without noting their game style doesn't tell you much. Hawthorn finished second last for clearances, the only team that finished below them was the premier. The premier also finished second last for contested possessions (and WC finished last). You don't necessarily need to win stoppage clearances if you rely heavily on putting pressure on the opposition and generating turnovers like Richmond does. Similarly teams that tend to rely on retaining possession as a key aspect of their gamelan tend to get less contested ball numbers. Having the guy that was 1st and 2nd for clearances and contested possessions in the competition the previous season break his leg in the pre-season probably had somewhat of an impact too (although we were bottom 6 for those metrics in 2018 too, so again, game style has as much impact as personnel).
I'm very interested to hear your definition of an "inside mid" that doesn't use the terms clearances and contested possessions.
What specific measurable attributes define "inside mids" and differentiate Cotchin and Martin as better inside mids than Essendon's?I was responding to a post referencing team clearances and contested possessions and using that as a measure of how good your inside mids are. Cotchin and Martin are a s**t load better inside than any Essendon inside mid, but Richmond finished last and second last for clearances and contested possessions and won the flag. Again, if you think team game plans don't impact total clearance and contested possession numbers as much as who your inside mids are then I'm not sure what else to say.
You want me irritated that much? I'm such a lovable fellow...i don't deserve that kind of torture!yep. You got people that live Ross Lyon tactics and people that hate it.
I hope Ross Lyon coaches another AFL club to irritate you lol.
Make Ross Lyon great again lol
If I wanted you to suffer, I would of wanted the cats to sack your current coach and Hire Ross Lyon as a Replacement! lolYou want me irritated that much? I'm such a lovable fellow...i don't deserve that kind of torture!
It's also important to look at clearance differential and Hawthorn finished dead last for that in 2019. I mean, I agree that you don't need a dominant stoppage unit to be competitive and it's only just one part of an overall gameplan, but if our inside mid unit is so terrible then why are they so much more competitive in the clearance game than Hawthorn's, despite Hawthorn having real inside mids like Worpel and O'Meara?
Shiel, Merrett and Heppell have all made All-Australian teams playing as centre square midfielders. They may not be tall, dominant inside bulls like a Cripps - and I agree we need a player like that - but they're at least competitive when it comes to winning clearances. And we have Parish, McGrath and D.Clarke who are also coming along as inside mids. Our bigger problems are with our forward line and general gameplan. I would definitely take Worpel, but he wouldn't dramatically improve our team.
What specific measurable attributes define "inside mids" and differentiate Cotchin and Martin as better inside mids than Essendon's?
What's your definition of an inside mid?
For similar reasons Tigers were bottom 3 for both clearance and contested possession differential despite having real inside mids like Martin and Cotchin. Game plan. Slightly different game plan reasons, but still game plan. Of course it isn't all game plan, we were also truly rubbish in the middle in the first half of the season while we adapted to not having Mitchell. We were somewhat better when Worpel took a massive step up in the second half of the year. You really can't judge a team's midfielders by its team clearance and contested possession numbers. Hawthorn started their 3-peat with a flag won while coming bottom 6 in contested possession average differential despite having contested beasts of the likes of S.Mitchell, J.Lewis and Sewell in that team. The aggregate numbers really don't say much. Nobody in the footy world thinks Essendon has a decent inside midfield unit, this isn't some kind of outlier opinion.
A brain is a handy attribute.What specific measurable attributes define "inside mids" and differentiate Cotchin and Martin as better inside mids than Essendon's?
What's your definition of an inside mid?
Inside mids that distribute the ball and put others into space are the valuable ones. Pendelbury has been doing it for years. Sam Mitchell was elite in that capacity. His namesake is nowhere near as destructive (but for weight of numbers). And they don't even have to be high possession winners like Cripps or Neale. Dion Prestia is elite at getting the ball and not being tackled and distributing it cleanly. One of the most underrated player in the league in my eyes. Cotchin while not a high possession winner uses his body as a battering ram and clears the path for others. Martin is the complete footballer inside and out.What specific measurable attributes define "inside mids" and differentiate Cotchin and Martin as better inside mids than Essendon's?
What's your definition of an inside mid?
I was responding to a post referencing team clearances and contested possessions and using that as a measure of how good your inside mids are. Cotchin and Martin are a s**t load better inside than any Essendon inside mid, but Richmond finished last and second last for clearances and contested possessions and won the flag. Again, if you think team game plans don't impact total clearance and contested possession numbers as much as who your inside mids are then I'm not sure what else to say.
Agree with the bolded in particular, but more often than not it is the mids who help the back or with transitions, hence it is so important to have creative players in there. Half backs with elite kicking skills are more than handy as well. Shiel was meant to be that player at Essendon but didn't have the season you'd hoped.Essendon is set up to be a counter attack team surely puts them in the Hawthorn/Richmond basket of not focussing on winning the clearances each game. Watching Essendon I'm far more worried about our ability to set up behind the ball and lock it in then our ability to win clearances.
Not saying this is a perfect measure of how good an inside midfield is because ruckman obviously play a big part however no side is setting up to lose centre clearances. Essendon were 6th in CCL differential.
Personally I'd say todays footy is less about how you win it at the stoppage and more about well you restrict the opposition when they have it and on flipside how well you move the ball when you have it.
Agree with the bolded in particular, but more often than not it is the mids who help the back or with transitions, hence it is so important to have creative players in there. Half backs with elite kicking skills are more than handy as well. Shiel was meant to be that player at Essendon but didn't have the season you'd hoped.
I wasn't criticising, and pretty good stats, but yes hard to come into a midfield that was thin and not really functioning as you'd like. Essendon seemed all or nothing a bit last year. Wide as you say then helta skelta when Saad had the ball and hoped that Tippa got on the end of it.I think our coaching was a bit of an issue last year. Worsfold’s philosophy was to play it safe by going long and wide from the defensive 50 which saw us have the ball trapped back there quite a lot.
Everyone seems convinced Shiel had a poor season last year. Sure his kicking let him a down a bit at times but overall I’d say he was as advertised. Top 10 in i50s, top 20 in metres gained and top 10 in centre clearances is excellent.
Merrett and Shiel seem to have copped too much flak for our 2019 failures with Smith injured and Heppell having a 3rd straight injury effected below average year. Forced the duo to carry a very shallow midfield and make do with a makeshift forward line headed by Mitch Brown and Mckernan for most the year.
I wasn't criticising, and pretty good stats, but yes hard to come into a midfield that was thin and not really functioning as you'd like. Essendon seemed all or nothing a bit last year. Wide as you say then helta skelta when Saad had the ball and hoped that Tippa got on the end of it.
Essendon is set up to be a counter attack team surely puts them in the Hawthorn/Richmond basket of not focussing on winning the clearances each game.
Watching Essendon I'm far more worried about our ability to set up behind the ball and lock it in then our ability to win clearances.
Not saying this is a perfect measure of how good an inside midfield is because ruckman obviously play a big part however no side is setting up to lose centre clearances. Essendon were 6th in CCL differential.
Personally I'd say todays footy is less about how you win it at the stoppage and more about well you restrict the opposition when they have it and on flipside how well you move the ball when you have it.
And 6th last for stoppage clearances differential, leaving you 7th last for average clearance differential . You're probably better placed than me to speculate why Essendon's centre clearance clearance differential is so much better than your stoppage clearance differential.
Agreed, which is why Tigers won the flag with poor figures in terms of both averages and differentials in contested ball and clearance stats. Eagles are interesting too - fairly dominant at clearances, but very low numbers for contested ball. Probably down to the flip side you mention - how well they move the ball, couple of kicks and straight into Kennedy or Darling's hands probably doesn't create many contests. Interestingly in Essendon's elimination final humiliation , WC actually lost the clearances, and smashed Essendon in contested ball. You can make whatever you like of these numbers, but Essendon's midfield has looked decidedly soft in its last two finals humiliations.