Which team list would you least want?

[Tenny]

View attachment 806402

But sure, it's me using this thread a 'let out'.

My original point, which I still stand by, is that it's ridiculous to think no one in the Gold Coast side would have a claim to a spot in the Richmond first 22.

Keep on trucking champ.

Oh, so you did know the answer to my question.

Now that you’ve told me your opinion, you should probably re-read the part in this thread where I told you I don’t give a f***

 

[Tenny]

AFL Ruck Analysis - Temporary - Daily Fantasy Sports Australia: Statistical Analysis for Fantasy Sports

 AFL Ruck Analysis Con: Ruck Contests Attended HO: Hitouts HO%: Percentage of Contests Resulting in a Hitout FP: Fantasy Points Last Time They Met (click to expand/collapse)

dailyfantasysportsaustralia.com

Richmond 3rd lowest percentage at 37% I guess you think it's all Chol's fault?

Chol and Balta shouldered a lot of the load throughout the season. Nank getting injured in the first five minutes of two games wouldn’t have helped. Jack was rucking a bit. Caddy also played the Grigg role and we experimented with others up until we introduced Ivan. Daniel Rioli was rucking at one point. Coleman-Jones debuted too. I’m surprised we’re 3rd lowest and not lowest when you consider all that. Next year I expect us to be top six which is reflective of our ruck quality.

Also, do you realise Richmond happily concede clearances? You should watch us play one time, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Scotland]

Very hard to gauge without an intimate knowledge of player contracts. You can look at an NBA roster (say Atlanta or Detroit) and say the team is going nowhere, but you can also see their contracts for this year and the following 3. In the AFL you can work out which players are signed up and for how long but the $ aren't published. How much would you want WC's list if it turns out we paid a bunch of guys highly in 2015-2018 and still have plenty of cap space going forward?

Footy moves quickly. In 2017 were were going to fall off a cliff. In 2018 we won the flag. 2019 could've gone a bit better but we added Tim Kelly. But then in 2021 we could be without our former captain and AA HBF and our 600 goal kicking FF. Cliff again?

The worst place to be in an AFL sense is probably where North were in 2015/16. A very experienced team hanging around mid table without really contending. Could argue the same about Geelong currently, but their H&A results are excellent. If you win 15-18 games 6 years out of 8 you give yourself a perfect platform to challenge, they've just performed poorly in September. Hawthorn are getting close to North territory but they have made considerable changes over the last 2-3 years so while it may pay off or blow up in their face they aren't just backing in the same group year on year and expecting 12-13 wins to become 17 and a flag.

 

[old55]

Chol and Balta shouldered a lot of the load throughout the season. Nank getting injured in the first five minutes of two games wouldn’t have helped. Jack was rucking a bit. Caddy also played the Grigg role and we experimented with others up until we introduced Ivan. Daniel Rioli was rucking at one point. Coleman-Jones debuted too. I’m surprised we’re 3rd lowest and not lowest when you consider all that. Next year I expect us to be top six which is reflective of our ruck quality.

Also, do you realise Richmond happily concede clearances? You should watch us play one time, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

So you're saying Soldo was the absolute last resort after Richmond tried everything else. That would explain his poor results.

 

[Freomaniac]

Name 10 ruckmen under 23 better than Sean Darcy?? Lol, why don’t you try naming 30 small forwards better than Petruccelle? It doesn’t prove anything. You said he’s a gun. There’s plenty of better rucks running around out there at the moment. He has potential but no way is he a gun yet.
YYo
As far as not having anywhere near the worst midfield in the comp as a comparison - going by who you think you’re better than

Darcy, Fyfe, Conca, Mundy, Brayshaw, S Hill, Blakely

vs

Goldstein, Cunnington, Higgins, Ziebell, Polec, Dumont, Anderson

vs

Kruezer, Cripps, Ed Curnow, Walsh, Gibbons, Newnes, Fisher

vs

Witts, Brodie, Bowes, Ellis, Swallow, Powell, Greenwood

I’d rate Freos midfield the worst of that bunch short term and second worst infront of north mid to long term

And this is where you are wrong. I find it funny you said freos mid field is the worst of that bunch and 2nd worst infornt of north long term. Again, Dont get me wrong, Yes, Both the suns and Blues both Narrowly beat us, But it doesnt sum up the bigger picture. You explain to me how Freo loses to Carlton in Perth and a hapless Suns yet somehow Freo beats GWS in Canberra and Fluke a win over Collingwood at the MCG of all places.

You understand the Bastardization theory in that.

Now because you say how crap freos midfield is, I want to know where Freo, Carlton, North, Suns, Hell, lets add the swans, Demons and Saints as well. You think the suns midfield has a better future than Freo? Well..... that depends if their best mids dont play the homesick card and flee to teams like Richmond, Colllingwood, dogs and even the hawks to play finals.

Demons finish 2nd bottom. I dont think they are top 4, I dont think they are bottom 4 either Ed Langdon fled Freo to join them. Saints got Brad Hill off us, he is easily going to be one of their best mids. For their sake they better have some good inside mids to feed him. Swans are also on a rebuild apparently.





Because here is Another thing.....

Back in 2018, Freo had the worst Best 22 in the comp according to champion data. So that means Freo were certain to finish bottom in 2018. Freo finished 14th with 8 wins.

In 2019, Freo had the 2nd worst list in the comp behind the suns and we got 9 wins. Again, Freo could of got a finals spot had we won a few close games.

Everyone has organic growth, From the crows, from your mob the eagles, from the suns and even From freo.

You have this typical anti freo stigma where if Every team gets a bunch of kids and keep them for 3-6 years, they will gradually improve. But if Freo does the exact same thing, they cant gradually improve because its Freo.

You need to Accept that Freo will eventually improve. You will Also accept that freo will eventually make finals, Possibly even this year. Stocking up draft picks from 2016-19, All 4 of those years freo finished bottom 6 has to translate on getting youth or trading early picks on good established talent.

There has been teams worse than this current freo side that has recovered and somehow made finals. Melbournes 2013 side under Coach Mark Neeld is one of them.


If Freo is Fully fit, I just dont see freo finishing bottom 4, even with a substandard midfield.

 

[Freomaniac]

That post was with regards to how much of our salary cap they're all taking up though, and Carlisle (whether he gets back to his best or not- he probably won't, but even close to his best he's still very good) is in the last year of his contract, whereas Hannas probably won't play enough games (especially after missing 17 last season) to trigger the 5th year on his deal, so it's likely just 3 more years for him, and it's probably a front-ended deal.

It's obviously likely that he too won't get back to his best (as it looks like Sydney ran him into the ground until he broke!), but the form he showed once we "rebuilt him" last year was very encouraging, and if he just keeps playing to that sort of level for 2-3 more years, we'd take that.

Probably the main reason we got him was for his experience and leadership (on field and on-track at least, which is said to be exceptional), so getting him back playing anywhere near his very best footy for an extended period would just be a bonus.

As for Steven, obviously we would have much preferred to have kept him, but he only played 7 games last year, 1 of them was not of AFL standard, and only 2 of them were anywhere near his best, so even a full season out of a Zac Jones would be a big upgrade on Jack's 2019 contribution.

You still think the Carlisle and Hannebery trades were good deals?

The only positive about the Hannebery trade was you didnt give up a 1st rounder for him. I think 2 2nd rounders was a fair trade though. The main reason Saints got him was they needed leadership in the midfield which was fair enough.

Gonna enjoy having poo fights with you comparing hannebery to Reece Conca.

Fancy that Hannebery wasnt the only player the swans played until he was injured. They kept Gary Rohan until he injured his leg.

If Hannebery is fully fit for the next 2-3 years and Saints play finals in that period, then all power to you.

Getting Dougall Howard relatively fair deal was a smart move too.

As for Brad Hill, like Lachie Neale and Ross Lyon before him, I dont have any animosity towards him. I wont go all out and hurl abuse at him and Call Brad Hill a mercenary dog like Plugger35 did to ross Lyon when he joined freo.

Speaking of Ross Lyon, there are so many young talent teams, who will Ross Lyons next victim be? lol.

Saints are done, Freo had him. 16 other teams left.....

I want Ross Lyon to Coach Again.


MAKE ROSS LYON GREAT AGAIN!!!!!

 

[eastfreo75]

Tell that to North Melbourne who hired Luff on the back of his twenty year stint with Champion Data.

Every teams 'elite' player according to Champion Data

Champion Data has revealed each club's 'elite' players.

www.zerohanger.com

Look at some of the names on the list and some of names which are not.

Stack better than Houli as a defender?

Grimes is pretty elite.

 

[Tenny]

So you're saying Soldo was the absolute last resort after Richmond tried everything else. That would explain his poor results.

We tried a few things before Soldo, yes, but once we tried him we never looked back. If his results were so “poor”, he wouldn’t have been our number one ruckman in the GF.



Maybe Ivan can show Maxy his premiership medallion.

 

[Evolved1]

Think the knock on Essendon has a lot to do with the seeming refusal to recruit/draft inside midfielders over many years
It’s a real reason why Essendon get shown up in crunch matches

Agreed, but to say our list is the worst in the league is silly.

If you throw in a couple of decent inside mids, things don't look too bad at Essendon.

 

[La Dispute]

Agreed, but to say our list is the worst in the league is silly.

If you throw in a couple of decent inside mids, things don't look too bad at Essendon.

That’s a weird way of looking at it, as it’s not as though you can still add a couple. You’re stuck with virtually the same mediocre list as last year.

Essendon arguably have the worst ruck division in the league, no second key forwards and their star forward under an indefinite injury cloud. Also aging key defenders.

Nice outside mids and some reasonable small forwards though.

 

[Evolved1]

That’s a weird way of looking at it, as it’s not as though you can still add a couple. You’re stuck with virtually the same mediocre list as last year.

Essendon arguably have the worst ruck division in the league, no second key forwards and their star forward under an indefinite injury cloud. Also aging key defenders.

Nice outside mids and some reasonable small forwards though.

We're a middling team, or mediocre as you put it.

Off the top of my head, I'd prefer our list to that of GC, Sydney, Port, Adelaide, North, St Kilda, and Freo.

 

[Righteo]

We're a middling team, or mediocre as you put it.

Footy limbo, the absolute worst situation to be in and probably why you're attracting so many votes. Not enough elite talent to challenge now and not enough promising youth to give hope for the future.

 

[Evolved1]

Footy limbo, the absolute worst situation to be in and probably why you're attracting so many votes. Not enough elite talent to challenge now and not enough promising youth to give hope for the future.

Fair enough.

When you haven't seen finals success since 2004, footy limbo feels like a second home.

 

[TP86]

If the worst list is the one requiring most turnover and currently has the fewest members of the club’s next premiership 22 then it’s North and Freo. Most other bad teams still have tradeable assets or players that will attract decent FA compo. Freo are bereft of talent and North will probably overpay to keep their good but not league-leading core or current young-ish players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ambrosia]

We're a middling team, or mediocre as you put it.

Off the top of my head, I'd prefer our list to that of GC, Sydney, Port, Adelaide, North, St Kilda, and Freo.

Yeah I'm not really getting the negativity towards Essendon's list. The only key players that have age concerns are Hooker and Hurley with Hurley being only 29 and not playing as full time KPD anyway. With the core side still having 4 plus years of good footy in them there is time to plug the holes through free agency and trade.

 

[Niggles]

Well Im gunna buck the trend by not naming the obvious ones like North and Carlton.

I reckon Melbourne will be down the bottom for a long while yet. Putrid current forward half with no decent talent coming through the ranks. A real disappointment, due to my wife being a long suffering supporter. The new coach honeymoon period lasted far longer than usual during 2018, but soon sunk right back to the arse end of the pack again being their true current level.

 

[Senor M]

Yeah I'm not really getting the negativity towards Essendon's list. The only key players that have age concerns are Hooker and Hurley with Hurley being only 29 and not playing as full time KPD anyway. With the core side still having 4 plus years of good footy in them there is time to plug the holes through free agency and trade.

Using this article for Essendon's Best 22 in 2020 (because I didn't really follow Essendon's trade period):

How Dons shape up after busy trade period, Freo’s new-look midfield: Collingwood, Essendon and Fremantle’s best 22s after the trade period

New-look Dockers, stacked Pies: Collingwood, Essendon and Freo’s best 22s after the trade period

www.foxsports.com.au

Essendon's Spine for 2020 will be Hooker-- Hurley-- Bellchambers-- McKernan-- Daniher.

• Four of those Five players (Hooker, Hurley, Bellchambers & McKernan) are either already over 30 or will be by the end of the 2020 season.
• Joe Daniher has played 11 games in 2 seasons & seems like he doesn't want to be there.

These two factors mean that Essendon's spine could be completely gone in the next 12-24 months. That's really worrying for a side that doesn't appear to have much key position depth (otherwise why would they go & get a 28 year old journeyman in Andrew Phillips.

Combine that with three forwards in Stringer, Fantasia & McDonald-Tipingwuti. On their day all three forwards have the ability to break a game open; but there's also many games when they can be completely ineffective. I'm honestly surprised that Essendon can carry all three in the same side due to how inconsistent they can be.

 

[Dez!]

Well Im gunna buck the trend by not naming the obvious ones like North and Carlton.

I reckon Melbourne will be down the bottom for a long while yet. Putrid current forward half with no decent talent coming through the ranks. A real disappointment, due to my wife being a long suffering supporter. The new coach honeymoon period lasted far longer than usual during 2018, but soon sunk right back to the arse end of the pack again being their true current level.

I reckon you'll be wrong.

 

[Freomaniac]

If the worst list is the one requiring most turnover and currently has the fewest members of the club’s next premiership 22 then it’s North and Freo. Most other bad teams still have tradeable assets or players that will attract decent FA compo. Freo are bereft of talent and North will probably overpay to keep their good but not league-leading core or current young-ish players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting you Mentioned North and Freo. North can make finals this year, or they can make bottom 6.

I will stick with talking about freo due to the obvious reasons.

Most other bad teams have Tradeable assets or players that will attract decent FA compo. That is debateable. I look at the 2011 draft when Chad Wingard and Lachie Neale was in that draft, both were traded the year before they became free agents. Port was happy in the end as they got a 1st rounder and a player in Ryan Burton. Had they waited one more year, they would of got a mid-late 1st round pick as compo.

The lachie neale trade worked out well for freo getting pick 6 and some extra picks. Had freo held onto him, we would of got pick 6 as a compo pick anyway finishing 13th.

I think there are some good Freo kids that have trade value in Brayshaw and Cerra, But I prefer to keep them. My biggest fear is freo has a similar fate of Brisbane had in 2013 or 2014 when 4-5 of their young talented players aged 23 or under asked to leave.

Freo are Bereft of Talent due to Various reasons.....

-Freo has never been a destination club. From that 2012-15 period freo made finals, the Free Agents we got in that period was Danyle Pearce from Port and Colin Sylvia from the demons.

-As much As I love Ross Lyon, I am willing to say he has some blame on the current list. Out of 100% I would say 20-40%. 20-50% is blamed on the recuiting and trading (This should be talked about). 20-40% is blamed on the medical staff (I will get on to that later) Sure he didnt play a lot of youth from our finals period from 2012-15, but it was a double edged sword. I have posted about freos 2015 season on here about the Ross Lyon choices. In mid 2015 there was debate on either playing the talented youth in Lachie Weller, Connor Blakley or Ed Langdon or Stick with the expecienced role playing guys in Matt Deober, Nic Suban, Tendai Mzugu or Clancee Pearce. Ross Lyon chose to stick with the role players because what they lacked in skill, they made up for it in endurance. Also that Sub rule also played a role in Ross Lyon wanting to play youth. Once 2016 came around and Freo fell into pieces and was crippled with injuries, Ross Lyon went full youth policy.

-Our Drafting and trading since 2007 has been mixed. Every 1st round pick has had from 2007-16 were either average (Sheridan), Injury prone (Stephen Hill, Anthony Morabito or Michael Apeness) or had Off field problems (Josh Simpson).

-When Freo made finals from 2012-15, Ironically, Freos drafting has been horrible in that 2012-15 period too. Well, if you make finals, you wont get access to top 5 or top 10 picks unless you trade. But thats part of AFL equalization to a degree. You finish bottom 4 for 3-4 years in a row and use those top 5 picks on gun elite kids to get you up the ladder. Had Freo got at least 2-3 solid players in each of those years we made finals, I think our rebuild from 2016-19 wouldnt be so bad. But if you look at freos drafting of youth in that 2012-15 period.....

2012:
Josh Simpson
Tanner Smith
Max Duffy

Matt Tarberer (2013 rookie pick)

2013:
Michael Apeness
Alex Pearce
Brady Grey

2014:
Lachie Weller
Connor Blakey
Ed Langdon

2015:
Darcy Tucker
Harley Balic
Sam Collins.


Of that list, Tarberner, Blakely, Alex Pearce, and Darcy Tucker are still left on freos current list. This Partially explains whay freo had such a massive list turnover from 2016-2019.

-Strength and Conditioning and Medical staff has been an issue. Again, Anthony Morabito was a gun mid taken in pick 4 of the 2009 draft. Had a good 2010 debut season then pre season 2011 he does a knee and is out of the 2011 season. He does it again in 2012 and 2013. he eventually returns in 2014 and is never the same.

Michael Apeness is a KPF/ruck freo got at pick 17 in 2013. Freos pick was late because they made the Grand final obviously. He showed some promise and played 2 games in 2014 spends most of the season in the ressies developing.. Does a knee mid 2015, comes back mid 2016 and plays 5 dockers games late in the season. Does his knee again mid 2017 and is out for another 12 months. Comes back late 2018 and plays another 5 dockers games. He is delisted and we were about to put him on the rookie list in 2019 but he retires anyway with another injury.

Harley Bennell. We traded a bit to get him. Was a good player at Gold coast then plays only 2-3 games from 2016-19 due to recurring injuries.


Seems the dockers are slowly tracking ok. Again, I think Freo will spend one more year outside the top 8 then hoping they get a good finals run before Fyfe, Walters and Hill retires.


Who knows when Freo will win the flag (If they ever win one).

 

[Senor M]

Seems the dockers are slowly tracking ok. Again, I think Freo will spend one more year outside the top 8 then hoping they get a good finals run before Fyfe, Walters and Hill retires.

I'm assuming you mean Stephen Hill-- because Bradley's come back East this season.

I think Freo's big 'list management' issue is the obsession with recruiting Key Forwards. This dates back almost a decade trying to (unsuccessfully) recruit Travis Cloke, Jack Riewoldt, Mitch Clark, Charlie Dixon, etc. This means when key forwards want to return to the West Freo are prepared to 'over pay' for them in draft picks. Freo spent huge on draft picks for Jesse Hogan, Rory Lobb & Cam McCarthy for IMO very little return.

 

[Leeda]

Saints give me the impression that they just don't always 'care enough'
That they are just playing until they gather enough 'dump... um dumb' people...

that they are hankering to get better but they just fall short...

 

[4THAWN]

I reckon Melbourne will be down the bottom for a long while yet. Putrid current forward half with no decent talent coming through the ranks.

I think their midfield lacks speed/class

too many very similar players, some pretty good players too but just not the right balance. Maybe Petracca can become a classy burst midfielder and shake it up from its largely "one-paced" formula.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm assuming you mean Stephen Hill-- because Bradley's come back East this season.

I think Freo's big 'list management' issue is the obsession with recruiting Key Forwards. This dates back almost a decade trying to (unsuccessfully) recruit Travis Cloke, Jack Riewoldt, Mitch Clark, Charlie Dixon, etc. This means when key forwards want to return to the West Freo are prepared to 'over pay' for them in draft picks. Freo spent huge on draft picks for Jesse Hogan, Rory Lobb & Cam McCarthy for IMO very little return.

Yes, I am refering to Stephen Hill as he turns 30 on may this year.

Well freo tired to lure a decent key forward to help pav before he retired.

Very harsh to say Freo spent huge on draft picks for Jesse Hogan, Rory Lobb & Cam McCarthy for IMO very little return. This isnt the old days of freo offering a top pick 10 for a fringer or average player. The old cliche of "Trading our future away"

The only KPF we traded heavily for was Hogan. Even then, we were lucky to get him because Lachie Neale wanted to leave. We made the best of a bad situation of trading Neale who wanted out to get a need in a KPF in Hogan.

We Traded picks 11 and 23 for pick 14 and Rory Lobb. Not exactly a "Trade away our future deal" isnt it?

As for the Cam McCarthy deal. We traded pick 3 for Cam McCarthy, pick 8 (Griffen Logue), 32 (Sean Darcy) and 72 (Luke Ryan). I was happy with that trade mainly because we nailed those 3 picks.

The harley Bennell trade(s) was Different. We traded picks 16 and 34 for Bennell and pick 22. we asked for pick 34 back, we did a 2nd trade with the suns. Traded our future 2nd rounder which ended up as pick 21 due to our drop next season and pick 61. Freo got pick 34 and 55 in return.

As it turned out Bennell was injury prone. I dont know what the suns did with their picks. We used pick 22 on Darcy Tucker, Pick 34 was Harley Balic and Pick 55 was Ironcially Sam Collins who eventually joined the suns. Tucker is the only guy we got left. had we nailed 1 or both the other picks, it would of made the trade much better.

 

[HairyO]

We're a middling team, or mediocre as you put it.

Off the top of my head, I'd prefer our list to that of GC, Sydney, Port, Adelaide, North, St Kilda, and Freo.

Thats fair. The baffling thing is the refusal to go for inside mids.

Either Worsfold or Dodoro or both really see the game going a different direction.

And they seem to be the only ones.

 

[Freomaniac]

Well Im gunna buck the trend by not naming the obvious ones like North and Carlton.

I reckon Melbourne will be down the bottom for a long while yet. Putrid current forward half with no decent talent coming through the ranks. A real disappointment, due to my wife being a long suffering supporter. The new coach honeymoon period lasted far longer than usual during 2018, but soon sunk right back to the arse end of the pack again being their true current level.

Very harsh on the demons there.....

The club remarkably recovered from the near fatal death blow that was the Mark Neeld era of 2012-3. They then slowly improved each year until that drop i 2019. Should of made finals in 2017 as well if it wasnt for a close loss or 2.

Still, you think all those players recuited under the Paul Roos years are solid kids