Which team list would you least want?

[Giant Pete]

North.

 

[aussierulesrules]

North's team right now is obviously pretty bad, but there is some appeal in their list in the fact there's a good amount of quality yoof there to work with going forward.

Including a couple of guys from last years draft who debuted yesterday and went well.

Simpkin
LDU
Thomas
Larkey
Stephenson
Zurhaar
McKay
Powell
Phillips
Scott
Lozarro

Hawthorn on the other hand...

are also rebuilding, yet are probably at least two years behind in that regard, and as such likely won't have equivalent yoof until about 2023 at the earliest, so I would want their list less than North's.

They look a long, long way off seriously contending again.

 

[RAPPA]

Hawthorn’s lit is quite bad but would I take a $hit list as at 202 as the price for 4 premierships over the past 13 years? Fk yeah

 

[GroggSquad]

I'd like to change my vote to North Melbourne

Based on yesterday? They literally fielded their VFL midfield unit - Jy Simpkin aside.

Hawthorn & Adelaide’s list seem much less promising right now.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Hawthorn then daylight.

North, essendon, Adelaide have some of the youngest/least experienced teams so will take some time to get a read on their selections. But Hawks are top 6 for experience, given your not contending it puts you in a different category to the other three.

Why are you triggered? The talent on the Hawks list under 25 is pretty bad. The Dogs had a lot of very good talent under 25 in 2015 and needed a coach to put it together. Hawthorn's list is very uninspiring.

Worpel
Day
Lewis
Hardwick
Grainger-Barras
Scrimshaw
Morrison

Adelaide and North's lists have considerable higher upsides than Hawthorn who are now finally paying the price for years of topping up.

This appears to be a prevalent opinion and I understand it. I can certainly acknowledge that Hawthorn need a lot to go right with the state of their list right now.

The only disagreement I have with the above opinions is that list views on BigFooty for poor teams are very focussed on players 22 years and younger. The problem with this is, you really can't make predictions more than 3 years out given how much lists and the footy landscape changes in that time. As such, you can't ignore players in the 'middle age bracket'. Teams at the bottom can rightfully ignore the quality of players aged 29+ (as they will have retired or declined by the next tilt) but ignoring players who are 26 or 27 is foolish. In 3-4 years time, those players are still likely to be contributing well to the team. Teams that have been poorer for longer are more likely to have more exposed youth but may have fewer decent players in the mid age bracket. If I remove every player aged 28 and over from Hawthorn's list, the 22 looks something like this:

B: Hardwick, DGB, Scrimshaw
HB: Impey, Frost, Sicily
C: Phillips, Mitchell, Day
HF: Wingard, O'Brien, Cousins
F: Moore, Lewis, Hanrahan
R: Reeves, O'Meara, Worpel
I: Howe, Morrison, Greaves, Jiath

This obviously is not awesome and has a number of holes. I still think it is better than the equivalent for some other clubs such as North Melbourne. Interested to see the other contenders.

 

[RUNVS]

B: Hardwick, DGB, Scrimshaw
HB: Impey, Frost, Sicily
C: Phillips, Mitchell, Day
HF: Wingard, O'Brien, Cousins
F: Moore, Lewis, Hanrahan
R: Reeves, O'Meara, Worpel
I: Howe, Morrison, Greaves, Jiath

Looking at that 22 I think Hawthorn desperately need to focus on the forward line. Not a lot of goals going to be kicked with that group of forwards.

 

[Dazb86]

Based on yesterday? They literally fielded their VFL midfield unit - Jy Simpkin aside.

Hawthorn & Adelaide’s list seem much less promising right now.

I think our legitimate 2nds not just the midfield could play St Kilda 10 times and they'd never lose by 15 goals.

 

[Tom14]

Hawthorn, because I've done the aging three-peat team that hasn't gotten close to bottoming out thing before. I don't think it will take the Hawks as long as Brisbane to bounce back, but its still a long way away to success imo.

I think North and Adelaide have objectively worse teams for this year and probably even next, but if you had their lists you can at least project excitement beyond a couple of players.

 

[Freomaniac]

I wouldn’t want Freo’s list. They’ve got the best midfielder in the comp whilst also having the worst midfield

not close to a flag in the near future and are almost starkers for a graders medium to long term judging output so far

the only potential A graders going forward I can see are Hogan and Alex Pearce who are constantly injured, Luke Ryan and maybe A Brayshaw although he is quite limited

I love your positivity

 

[Freomaniac]

Hawthorn, because I've done the aging three-peat team that hasn't gotten close to bottoming out thing before. I don't think it will take the Hawks as long as Brisbane to bounce back, but its still a long way away to success imo.

I think North and Adelaide have objectively worse teams for this year and probably even next, but if you had their lists you can at least project excitement beyond a couple of players.

I agree.

Crows list is bad now, but in 2-3 years time I see significant improvement.

McAsey, Butts, Luke Pedlar, Brayden cook, Darcy Fogarty and Tyson Stengle are some young talent aged 23 or under that would be good to work with.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I think our legitimate 2nds not just the midfield could play St Kilda 10 times and they'd never lose by 15 goals.

There's no way known your 2nds team is better than the one North put out yesterday.

They essentially had their full senior AFL backline in and most if not all of their senior forwardline. Plus Simpkin (2nd in their B&F last year and with another preseason under his belt) in the midfield, plus one or two others who may be best 22 this year (eg Tyson, Powell, Hayden).

We also beat your senior team by 39 points in one of our two games last year and that was in a shortened game.

We'd pummel any teams 2nds. From memory we were the highest scoring team in the AFL last year and we have more firepower this year, and the new rules suit us.

 

[Freomaniac]

There's no way known your 2nds team is better than the one North put out yesterday.

They essentially had their full senior AFL backline in and most if not all of their senior forwardline. Plus Simpkin (2nd in their B&F last year and with another preseason under his belt) in the midfield, plus one or two others who may be best 22 this year (eg Tyson, Powell, Hayden).

We also beat your senior team by 39 points in one of our two games last year and that was in a shortened game.

We'd pummel any teams 2nds. From memory we were the highest scoring team in the AFL last year and we have more firepower this year, and the new rules suit us.

Hold on there..... you said the Saints were the highest scoring side in the AFL last year? I got to look that one up. I was thinking your side was 5th or 6th most attacking to be honest. Then again, how can I know as there was a lot of low scoring games in 2020.

Saying that..... Demons went From Being coached by Mark Neeld in 2012-3. Then had Paul Roos in 2014 and they were the undisputed lowest attacking team in the AFL averaging 58 points a game. By 2018, they were the most attacking side in the AFL averaging 104.5 points a game.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Hold on there..... you said the Saints were the highest scoring side in the AFL last year? I got to look that one up. I was thinking your side was 5th or 6th most attacking to be honest. Then again, how can I know as there was a lot of low scoring games in 2020.

Saying that..... Demons went From Being coached by Mark Neeld in 2012-3. Then had Paul Roos in 2014 and they were the undisputed lowest attacking team in the AFL averaging 58 points a game. By 2018, they were the most attacking side in the AFL averaging 104.5 points a game.

Yeah we were right up there as of very late in the year.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yeah we were right up there as of very late in the year.

thats not possible. You dont become a Ross Lyon defensive side to the most attacking side in the AFL in a blink of an eye.

 

[aussierulesrules]

thats not possible. You dont become a Ross Lyon defensive side to the most attacking side in the AFL in a blink of an eye.

Just looked it up and we ended up fourth. Geelong were the highest. Then Port on 1185 and Brisbane 1184 and then us on 1159.

 

[WillHayward]

Saints now the oldest list in the comp.
Time to win it is this year.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Saints now the oldest list in the comp.
Time to win it is this year.

We're all in, that's for sure.

We had the oldest list before we signed Wood up, so now we're pulling away.

Think we're hoping to nab one while Ryder is still up and about.

Our chance last year was pretty much killed off when we lost him, Carlisle and Long for our last final, and didn't really have suitable like-for-like replacements for him or Carlisle, but we look to have most if not all of our bases covered this year, should we contend again.

 

[Freomaniac]

Saints now the oldest list in the comp.
Time to win it is this year.

Shock to me. I thought it was Cats or West coast or Richmond that had the oldest list.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Shock to me. I thought it was Cats or West coast or Richmond that had the oldest list.

Yeah I was shocked when I first heard it, as we don't have as many old fogies as Geelong do, but the thing that does it is that from memory we have the least who are 20 or under in the comp.

A huge chunk of our list is in the 22-27yo age bracket.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Looking at that 22 I think Hawthorn desperately need to focus on the forward line. Not a lot of goals going to be kicked with that group of forwards.

Yep. Once Gunston and Breust retire we are going to be pretty thin (we already are really) which feels strange as the forward line has always been Hawthorn's strength.

A positive is that the club are well aware, drafting Lewis and Jeka, trading for Patton and now trialling Callow. They also switched Kozi forward once we drafted DGB (I think they may have anticipated your bloke).

They have also gone all out for small forwards in the last 2 drafts, picking up 4 or 5 of them. Too early to tell but feels like Brockman might be the best bet.

Hopefully 1 or 2 from both groups kick on. In a bit of trouble if not.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Yep. Once Gunston and Breust retire we are going to be pretty thin (we already are really) which feels strange as the forward line has always been Hawthorn's strength.

A positive is that the club are well aware, drafting Lewis and Jeka, trading for Patton and now trialling Callow. They also switched Kozi forward once we drafted DGB (I think they may have anticipated your bloke).

They have also gone all out for small forwards in the last 2 drafts, picking up 4 or 5 of them. Too early to tell but feels like Brockman might be the best bet.

Hopefully 1 or 2 from both groups kick on. In a bit of trouble if not.

Maybe switch Hardwick or Sicily back there down the track.

 

[Bradkli]

This appears to be a prevalent opinion and I understand it. I can certainly acknowledge that Hawthorn need a lot to go right with the state of their list right now.

The only disagreement I have with the above opinions is that list views on BigFooty for poor teams are very focussed on players 22 years and younger. The problem with this is, you really can't make predictions more than 3 years out given how much lists and the footy landscape changes in that time. As such, you can't ignore players in the 'middle age bracket'. Teams at the bottom can rightfully ignore the quality of players aged 29+ (as they will have retired or declined by the next tilt) but ignoring players who are 26 or 27 is foolish. In 3-4 years time, those players are still likely to be contributing well to the team. Teams that have been poorer for longer are more likely to have more exposed youth but may have fewer decent players in the mid age bracket. If I remove every player aged 28 and over from Hawthorn's list, the 22 looks something like this:

B: Hardwick, DGB, Scrimshaw
HB: Impey, Frost, Sicily
C: Phillips, Mitchell, Day
HF: Wingard, O'Brien, Cousins
F: Moore, Lewis, Hanrahan
R: Reeves, O'Meara, Worpel
I: Howe, Morrison, Greaves, Jiath

This obviously is not awesome and has a number of holes. I still think it is better than the equivalent for some other clubs such as North Melbourne. Interested to see the other contenders.

That team above is bottom 4..

Backline: we don’t have a gun full back to play on the elite key forwards of the comp. you need at least 1 if not 2. DGB is going to be a star but he’s not a traditional full-back. He’s more like a Jeremy McGovern type. He’s also 2-3 years off playing consistent senior footy. Frost, impey, scrimshaw are dashers. All ok players, but teams aren’t going to be worried coming up against that back 6. Sicily I love, but he’s coming of a ACL & like DGB, he’s not a key position player.

Midfield: easily bottom 4 in the comp. Mitchell, omera, worpel, cousins, howe...all the same. Great at finding the ball, but slow and terrible disposal. On paper, Mitchell, worpel and Omera reads like a decent starting midfield, but as a combination they are horrendous. Cousins showed good signs at the end of last season, but he’s a depth player at best. In a good team, he would have already been delisted. Same with howe. Will day is going to be a star, but he’s 2-3 years from being able to play as a inside midfielder. We need gun midfielders that can break the lines and kick well inside 50...we don’t have one currently. Regarding your point on north Melbourne- LDU is that exact player we need. He’s going to be a breakout star this season or next. They also have Simpkin, Tarryn Thomas & drafted two elite mids in Powell and Phillips. That midfield will be top 5 in the AFL by 2023. A midfield of ldu, Simpkin, Thomas, Phillips and Powell is 100 x better than what we have.

Forwards: that forward 6 above is as bad as any team in the comp. that team isn’t kicking more that 10 goals in a match. O’Brien and Lewis as key forwards...like cousins and howe, in a good team, O’Brien is delisted two years ago..Mitch Lewis showed some good signs at the end of 2019, but from what we saw last season, when the team struggles, he’s deplorable. Looked lost and afraid. Those small forwards...ouch!! The loss of Cyril was the biggest loss for us. We haven’t been close to replacing him and Hanrahan and Moore simply aren’t the answer..hopefully brockman is..he looks classy and must play this season.

Ruck: worse than our midfield and forward line...Ned reeves will not make it as an AFL ruckman. He has the size, but is slow and struggles around the ground. With a terrible midfield already, a good ruck is critical..we will have a top 4 pick for the next 2-3 seasons and need to find a Luke Jackson type.

Our list is 2-3 years behind north Melbourne and Adelaide..the Omera and Wingard trades from the last few years have really hurt us and will for another few years...we just have to accept it...I think the majority of our fans finally have..

 

[The 747]

B: Hardwick, DGB, Scrimshaw
HB: Impey, Frost, Sicily
C: Phillips, Mitchell, Day
HF: Wingard, O'Brien, Cousins
F: Moore, Lewis, Hanrahan
R: Reeves, O'Meara, Worpel
I: Howe, Morrison, Greaves, Jiath

This obviously is not awesome and has a number of holes. I still think it is better than the equivalent for some other clubs such as North Melbourne. Interested to see the other contenders.

Yikes, going to be a long road back for the Hawks.

 

[HairyO]

Yikes, going to be a long road back for the Hawks.

Where is Geelong in 2 years?

You had all those picks for Kelly then swapped them for a 28 year old. And recruited 2 guys in their 30s.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

That team above is bottom 4..

Backline: we don’t have a gun full back to play on the elite key forwards of the comp. you need at least 1 if not 2. DGB is going to be a star but he’s not a traditional full-back. He’s more like a Jeremy McGovern type. He’s also 2-3 years off playing consistent senior footy. Frost, impey, scrimshaw are dashers. All ok players, but teams aren’t going to be worried coming up against that back 6. Sicily I love, but he’s coming of a ACL & like DGB, he’s not a key position player.

Midfield: easily bottom 4 in the comp. Mitchell, omera, worpel, cousins, howe...all the same. Great at finding the ball, but slow and terrible disposal. On paper, Mitchell, worpel and Omera reads like a decent starting midfield, but as a combination they are horrendous. Cousins showed good signs at the end of last season, but he’s a depth player at best. In a good team, he would have already been delisted. Same with howe. Will day is going to be a star, but he’s 2-3 years from being able to play as a inside midfielder. We need gun midfielders that can break the lines and kick well inside 50...we don’t have one currently. Regarding your point on north Melbourne- LDU is that exact player we need. He’s going to be a breakout star this season or next. They also have Simpkin, Tarryn Thomas & drafted two elite mids in Powell and Phillips. That midfield will be top 5 in the AFL by 2023. A midfield of ldu, Simpkin, Thomas, Phillips and Powell is 100 x better than what we have.

Forwards: that forward 6 above is as bad as any team in the comp. that team isn’t kicking more that 10 goals in a match. O’Brien and Lewis as key forwards...like cousins and howe, in a good team, O’Brien is delisted two years ago..Mitch Lewis showed some good signs at the end of 2019, but from what we saw last season, when the team struggles, he’s deplorable. Looked lost and afraid. Those small forwards...ouch!! The loss of Cyril was the biggest loss for us. We haven’t been close to replacing him and Hanrahan and Moore simply aren’t the answer..hopefully brockman is..he looks classy and must play this season.

Ruck: worse than our midfield and forward line...Ned reeves will not make it as an AFL ruckman. He has the size, but is slow and struggles around the ground. With a terrible midfield already, a good ruck is critical..we will have a top 4 pick for the next 2-3 seasons and need to find a Luke Jackson type.

Our list is 2-3 years behind north Melbourne and Adelaide..the Omera and Wingard trades from the last few years have really hurt us and will for another few years...we just have to accept it...I think the majority of our fans finally have..

Most of this is true, albeit through the most negative lens.

A few counterpoints to those offered:

The backline is stronger than you give it credit for. In fact, I would suggest it is the strongest of the teams nominated for this thread. Yes, we lack a younger full back at this stage. Though we now have Hartigan as a stop gap for the next 2-3 years, had Frawley before him and Lake before him. Point is, we haven't had a young full back for the last decade. Mature players to fill that role seem easy enough to trade for and will have plenty of class, intercepting and rebound around them.

We also do need some more classy and explosive mids but the current midfield does not have 'terrible' disposal. Not elite, not terrible - just standard. Also, Wingard and Day (and.hopefully Downie) do provide a point of difference. I'd still have that midfield ahead of a few others, including the Nth one you mentioned.

The fwds and rucks definitely need work, although the ruck is another area where a lot of teams get mature players.

Not to be overly positive/ delusional either - I agree with a lot of your points and our list needs a lot to go right - just don't think we are the worst.