Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

[Strapping Young Lad]

I know it's the cyclical nature of footy but North have been dire for three years and it doesn't look like it's getting any better next year.

They are a basket case off the field. Recruiting has been piss poor leaving them bereft of talent both at the senior level and youth (few bright stars but very little depth).

They've been a basket case on the field and looking like 3 bottom 2 finishes in a row (saved from the bottom by percentage only and what is looking like the worst West Coast side in history). Even their ressies are getting smashed week in week out.

They are seriously in trouble.

Like you said, they’ve made a lot of really poor decisions, and it looks like they’re headed nowhere fast with Noble, but they want to prove to the footy viewing would that they don’t need handouts and can stand on their own two feet as a viable club, so they need to right that ship.

 

[SSSSSS]

Like you said, they’ve made a lot of really poor decisions, and it looks like they’re headed nowhere fast with Noble, but they want to prove to the footy viewing would that they don’t need handouts and can stand on their own two feet as a viable club, so they need to right that ship.

At least they will always have the poll

 

[almuz]

Hmm interesting points made but I gotta vote the mighty North youngsters still - really inspiring bunch

 

[zoomba23]

On paper it should be us. On the field it's Hawthorn, then Adelaide, then daylight, then the Great Wall Of China, then the length of Brady Rawlings

Brady Rawlings

Age

42

Ht

184cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.7

4star

K

8.7

3star

HB

9.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.6

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.0

1star

T

0.8

3star

' schnozz, then twice the length of the Flemington Straight, then us. Broken ******* club. Adelaide and Hawthorn are light years ahead of us and I'm seriously worried we're gonna butcher the careers of these young blokes

 

[chopflop]

On paper it should be us. On the field it's Hawthorn, then Adelaide, then daylight, then the Great Wall Of China, then the length of Brady Rawlings' schnozz, then twice the length of the Flemington Straight, then us. Broken ******* club. Adelaide and Hawthorn are light years ahead of us and I'm seriously worried we're gonna butcher the careers of these young blokes

Need to get rid of Rawlings and the coach. Bush league club type operation. I hope you guys turn it around because most north fans are alright and you aren't really a hateable club

 

[Dewyyyyy]

The funniest thing here is that the highest pick (Pretty sure) Mitch Lewis pick 76 is the best forward out of all 3 sides and it's not really close, he's one of the best forwards in the league, think he's one of 4 blokes averaging 3 goals a game this year.

Like the goal he kicked yesterday, lined the goals up from 60 with a wet footy and it didn't look like missing.

 

[SSSSSS]

Even when Melbourne was rock bottom getting belted week in week out, Casey was a strong side. You could tell that despite how shite they 1's were doing, there was something being built behind the scenes.

Just not happening at North. Why?

Two years in a row of the VFL team getting belted (finished last year with a percentage of 56%). Questions need to be asked. Hard for a young kid to find form and develop when you're on the end of 10 goal beltings either in the seniors or the magoos.

A team bereft of talent and they pass on a second pick in the MSD. Inept.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

A team bereft of talent and they pass on a second pick in the MSD. Inept.

Wow, that’s very surprising.
I didn’t actually realize they did that until just now.

I got in an argument on our board about how negligent it would be for us as a rebuilding club to leave a spot open when it’s a free look at a player for 6 months and the opportunity to unearth a player.

As it turned out we took Blanck with our second pick which is fine by me, but surely North had other players they could’ve taken a look at with so many holes on their list.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

The funniest thing here is that the highest pick (Pretty sure) Mitch Lewis pick 76 is the best forward out of all 3 sides and it's not really close, he's one of the best forwards in the league, think he's one of 4 blokes averaging 3 goals a game this year.

Like the goal he kicked yesterday, lined the goals up from 60 with a wet footy and it didn't look like missing.

I'm not keen to get carried away after 9 weeks of good form (or to compare him to others yet) but the way he is playing is really encouraging.

Not only the fact that he has the 4th highest goal average in the league but the rest of his game and the manner it is coming. Specifically:

(a) He's not kicking big bags on favourable match ups and then anonymous the next week. Instead, he is contributing goals basically every week regardless of team performance or his opponent. Even within games, he is often kicking a goal each quarter rather than 3 goals in junk time after nothing all match.
(b) Similarly, the quality of opponent he is managing to kick goals on. 4 on Harris Andrews, yesterday 4 on Darcy Moore and Jeremy Howe (they were often playing 2 on 1) and that was in the driving rain.
(c) He's doing so despite Hawthorn being 16th for inside 50's - only marginally ahead of the 2 basket case clubs. He's really managing to do a lot with limited supply.
(d) When he is not marking it he is absolutely smashing packs (again, when outnumbered) meaning that the 'kick in hope' toward an outnumber that would almost always result in an opposition mark is being turned into a 50/50 ground ball. It's one of the reasons we are one of the most efficient sides turning an inside 50 into a score.
(e) his ground level craft before this year was quite poor. Yesterday, he snapped a ripping goal and had some key touches at ground level. IN order to be consistently effective, you need multiple avenues to score and prior to this season, Lewis was pretty much mark or bust. This is becoming less of the case and could be the difference between him being a decent key forward and a great one.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I'm not keen to get carried away after 9 weeks of good form (or to compare him to others yet) but the way he is playing is really encouraging.

Not only the fact that he has the 4th highest goal average in the league but the rest of his game and the manner it is coming. Specifically:

(a) He's not kicking big bags on favourable match ups and then anonymous the next week. Instead, he is contributing goals basically every week regardless of team performance or his opponent. Even within games, he is often kicking a goal each quarter rather than 3 goals in junk time after nothing all match.
(b) Similarly, the quality of opponent he is managing to kick goals on. 4 on Harris Andrews, yesterday 4 on Darcy Moore and Jeremy Howe (they were often playing 2 on 1) and that was in the driving rain.
(c) He's doing so despite Hawthorn being 16th for inside 50's - only marginally ahead of the 2 basket case clubs. He's really managing to do a lot with limited supply.
(d) When he is not marking it he is absolutely smashing packs (again, when outnumbered) meaning that the 'kick in hope' toward an outnumber that would almost always result in an opposition mark is being turned into a 50/50 ground ball. It's one of the reasons we are one of the most efficient sides turning an inside 50 into a score.
(e) his ground level craft before this year was quite poor. Yesterday, he snapped a ripping goal and had some key touches at ground level. IN order to be consistently effective, you need multiple avenues to score and prior to this season, Lewis was pretty much mark or bust. This is becoming less of the case and could be the difference between him being a decent key forward and a great one.

Not getting carried away but he’ll only get better.

 

[SSSSSS]

Not getting carried away but he’ll only get better.

Even if he doesn't we are still looking at a 40-50 goal CHF. Those don't grow on trees.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Even if he doesn't we are still looking at a 40-50 goal CHF. Those don't grow on trees.

He’s gonna be a genuine superstar. And some.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Would like to see more of Soligo but he looked great for the Crows on the weekend.

Adelaide may have found a player there.

 

[1990crow]

From what I've watched of the Hawks this year they are propped up a bit still by Mitchell, O'Meara, Gunston, Breust and Wingard. Those players aren't going to be around for their next flag push.
For the crows Smith, Walker and Laird in the same vein.
North - Ziebull, Greenwood and Goldstein.

For that reason I think the Hawks development is hard to judge until they find a squad capable of replacing their influence.
There's obvious talent - Day, Newcombe, Lewis, Jiath, Moore, Scrimshaw, Koschitzke, DGB, Ward.. but outside that group I'm not convinced by many others. Even Worpel doesn't look like he's developed since his early years.

North have JHF, Thomas, Powell, Stephenson, Taylor, LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, Phillips and Zurhaar who are convincing enough to be in any future North finals push. A little deeper than Hawthorn IMO.

Adelaide have Thilthorpe, Fogarty, Rachele, Berry, Hately, Dawson, McHenry, Doedee, Butts, Jones, Soligo, Cook, Hamill, Keays all look like long term players. Happy to be biased and say in terms of depth of talent they are heading in the right direction.

 

[SSSSSS]

From what I've watched of the Hawks this year they are propped up a bit still by Mitchell, O'Meara, Gunston, Breust and Wingard. Those players aren't going to be around for their next flag push.
For the crows Smith, Walker and Laird in the same vein.
North - Ziebull, Greenwood and Goldstein.

For that reason I think the Hawks development is hard to judge until they find a squad capable of replacing their influence.
There's obvious talent - Day, Newcombe, Lewis, Jiath, Moore, Scrimshaw, Koschitzke, DGB, Ward.. but outside that group I'm not convinced by many others. Even Worpel doesn't look like he's developed since his early years.

North have JHF, Thomas, Powell, Stephenson, Taylor, LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, Phillips and Zurhaar who are convincing enough to be in any future North finals push. A little deeper than Hawthorn IMO.

Adelaide have Thilthorpe, Fogarty, Rachele, Berry, Hately, Dawson, McHenry, Doedee, Butts, Jones, Soligo, Cook, Hamill, Keays all look like long term players. Happy to be biased and say in terms of depth of talent they are heading in the right direction.

It amazes me that the sentiment on Bigfooty RE: Wingard/Mitchell/JOM are that they are overrated hacks yet are still propping up our side. JOM is playing a cameo role on the HFF. Mitchell has had some monster games and some real disappointing ones. Wingard has had his moments of brilliance this year but periods of doing absolutely * all.

Gunston has lost a few games off his own boot for us this year and his body is not holding up. Breust gets a pass mark from me for the year.

Our performance this year has 100% been driven by the younger guys stepping up. Of the older crop it is only Sicily who has had performances of any note and he is still only 27.

FWIW the Yabby medal count (Bigfooty Hawthorn boards MVP) as of round 10 has the following top 5. The Yabby has been a pretty good predictor for the PCM in the past.

1. Newcombe
2. Sicily
3. Scrimshaw
4. Lewis/Moore tied

The belief that our older core are propping up our side is either completely misinformed or a lazy assessment, and is a complete disservice to the younger brigade driving the club forward.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

From what I've watched of the Hawks this year they are propped up a bit still by Mitchell, O'Meara, Gunston, Breust and Wingard. Those players aren't going to be around for their next flag push.
For the crows Smith, Walker and Laird in the same vein.
North - Ziebull, Greenwood and Goldstein.

For that reason I think the Hawks development is hard to judge until they find a squad capable of replacing their influence.
There's obvious talent - Day, Newcombe, Lewis, Jiath, Moore, Scrimshaw, Koschitzke, DGB, Ward.. but outside that group I'm not convinced by many others. Even Worpel doesn't look like he's developed since his early years.

North have JHF, Thomas, Powell, Stephenson, Taylor, LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, Phillips and Zurhaar who are convincing enough to be in any future North finals push. A little deeper than Hawthorn IMO.

Adelaide have Thilthorpe, Fogarty, Rachele, Berry, Hately, Dawson, McHenry, Doedee, Butts, Jones, Soligo, Cook, Hamill, Keays all look like long term players. Happy to be biased and say in terms of depth of talent they are heading in the right direction.

You mention Ward but don't mention MacDonald or Butler who are probably going to be as talented and as good. Worpel's still a talent just finding his way, the same way Stephenson is, both playing VFL atm.

Hell even Finn Maginness who had 35 and a goal (2 behinds) on the weekend in the VFL, played on the wing and in the middle and dominated against North. He played on Stephenson a fair bit and gave him a genuine bath.

You added in Curtis Taylor who i think is a good talent and player, but we've got blokes like Bramble, Lynch, Nash? Who you haven't included who've shown they're talented and have performed at the level.

And obviously we have a few that will need to debut first but blokes like Ned Long, Blanck, S.Mitchell have performed good at VFL level.

The other one i wanted to mention was Brockman who if not for injury would've played alot of games this year, he was in WA (for a funeral) and then game back for match fitness at VFL level and did a shoulder, showed plenty last year.

Obviously a more biased POV, but seeing more of these blokes also helps.

 

[Themanbun]

From what I've watched of the Hawks this year they are propped up a bit still by Mitchell, O'Meara, Gunston, Breust and Wingard. Those players aren't going to be around for their next flag push.
For the crows Smith, Walker and Laird in the same vein.
North - Ziebull, Greenwood and Goldstein.

For that reason I think the Hawks development is hard to judge until they find a squad capable of replacing their influence.
There's obvious talent - Day, Newcombe, Lewis, Jiath, Moore, Scrimshaw, Koschitzke, DGB, Ward.. but outside that group I'm not convinced by many others. Even Worpel doesn't look like he's developed since his early years.

North have JHF, Thomas, Powell, Stephenson, Taylor, LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, Phillips and Zurhaar who are convincing enough to be in any future North finals push. A little deeper than Hawthorn IMO.

Adelaide have Thilthorpe, Fogarty, Rachele, Berry, Hately, Dawson, McHenry, Doedee, Butts, Jones, Soligo, Cook, Hamill, Keays all look like long term players. Happy to be biased and say in terms of depth of talent they are heading in the right direction.

The Hawks and Crows will develop their players much better BECAUSE of these older blokes being able to tutor and teach the younger blokes. It's why we were seeing North dominate this poll last year and now it feels like they're dead last in terms of young talent.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It amazes me that the sentiment on Bigfooty RE: Wingard/Mitchell/JOM are that they are overrated hacks yet are still propping up our side.

It’s like when Cornes was carrying on about how Mitchell and O’meara had no currency and how they were getting less of the ball… and you’re just left to wonder how these people get paid to give opinions on teams when they clearly don’t watch them or know that Tom and JOM have been given completely different roles.

The realfooty podcast did the opposite this week, highlighting that Hawthorns fortunes now lay at the feet of younger players like Newk, Lewis, CJ, Nash etc.

 

[lethalselbow]

I see that North Melbourne Shinboners.... sorry, I mean the Kangaroos Fighting Spirit is leading this poll.

Wonder whether everyone will recast their vote when Jason Horne-Francis leaves for a South Australian club? Probably.


Keep that fighting spirt up, Kangaroos!

UPDATED: Kangaroos facelift raises more questions over club’s future

Zero Hanger can exclusively reveal that North Melbourne are actively distancing themselves from two key pillars of their rebirth as a football club.

www.zerohanger.com

.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I see that North Melbourne Shinboners.... sorry, I mean the Kangaroos Fighting Spirit is leading this poll.

Wonder whether everyone will recast their vote when Jason Horne-Francis leaves for a South Australian club? Probably.


Keep that fighting spirt up, Kangaroos!

UPDATED: Kangaroos facelift raises more questions over club’s future

Zero Hanger can exclusively reveal that North Melbourne are actively distancing themselves from two key pillars of their rebirth as a football club.

www.zerohanger.com

.

The comms article re shinboner spirit seems to be more around using "fighting spirit" to help educate younger people about what "shinboner spirit" is (not unreasonable as its a fairly old term)

can't find a positive explanation for preferencing "kangaroos" instead of "north melbourne" or "north". Maybe theyv'e been scarred by the usage on bigfooty bay13 (the 4 letter version)

 

[lethalselbow]

The comms article re shinboner spirit seems to be more around using "fighting spirit" to help educate younger people about what "shinboner spirit" is (not unreasonable as its a fairly old term)

can't find a positive explanation for preferencing "kangaroos" instead of "north melbourne" or "north". Maybe theyv'e been scarred by the usage on bigfooty bay13 (the 4 letter version)

fighting spirit could be used by any club. shinboner is/was unique to Norf. It isn't hard to educate people as to what a term relates to. IF you want to. Reckon it smells of the time they changed their name from North Melbourne to Kangaroos for a season. Do you want your club to stand out or blend in?

 

[Le Grille]

Seems North fans beginning to realise how soft Stephensen is. Shouldn’t be surprised.

He’ll be at his 3rd club before his contract is out.

Have been so disappointed with him, I can see the talent but I’m not sure he wants to be a footballer

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Have been so disappointed with him, I can see the talent but I’m not sure he wants to be a footballer

Wants to be a mountain bike rider

 

[Tas]

Wow, that’s very surprising.
I didn’t actually realize they did that until just now.

I got in an argument on our board about how negligent it would be for us as a rebuilding club to leave a spot open when it’s a free look at a player for 6 months and the opportunity to unearth a player.

As it turned out we took Blanck with our second pick which is fine by me, but surely North had other players they could’ve taken a look at with so many holes on their list.

Yeah, I liked Culley and D'Ambrosio but due to a lack of KPP I would have gone after Wade Derksen at pick 2 and looked at Blanck or Durdin with the second pick. I didn't think we should have got rid of Durdin 2 years ago.

That being said, the MSD can be hit or miss, it isn't really magic list space, you have to make room for them on your list and for a KPP I don't think 6 months is enough time to figure out if they are going to make it or not. Dawson asked for an 18 month contract I believe and were okay with that, but our list is heavily congested in the 18-21 age group, there is a lot more demand on development coaches with kids and inexperienced players, If you are a side with a good mature list, they are in form and confidence isn't shot you have more resources to invest per kid you are developing.

I think it is why s**t sides often take a lot longer to develop, we are far too reliant on the younger kids stepping up. If you look at the worst sides over the last few years, the ones doing better atm have the better mature players. We only have two A grade mature players, Goldy who is 34 or whatever and Cunnington who has missed two of the last three seasons. When he was up and running in the second half and we had Tarrant and a few other mature players running around, the optimism was a lot higher because and we were a lot more competitive.

There is the temptation to just throw a lot of talented kids out there, but it doesn't make for a good short-term look and you could potentially harm long-term development. I think the club will be looking to add a bit more maturity into the side over the pre-season but you still need quality there, you can't just shove in mediocre older player.

We have had too many musical chairs in terms of leadership from coaching to recruitment to development, I think it has made it harder to deploy a clear plan over a number of years, there needs to be some stability and consistency with what we are doing and I think the side just needs more mature support, our midfield is just physically under developed and they haven't played a lot of footy together as a group.

 

[Tas]

Wow, that’s very surprising.
I didn’t actually realize they did that until just now.

I got in an argument on our board about how negligent it would be for us as a rebuilding club to leave a spot open when it’s a free look at a player for 6 months and the opportunity to unearth a player.

As it turned out we took Blanck with our second pick which is fine by me, but surely North had other players they could’ve taken a look at with so many holes on their list.

Yeah, I liked Culley and D'Ambrosio but due to a lack of KPP I would have gone after Wade Derksen at pick 2 and looked at Blanck or Durdin with the second pick. I didn't think we should have got rid of Durdin 2 years ago.

That being said, the MSD can be hit or miss, it isn't really magic list space, you have to make room for them on your list and for a KPP I don't think 6 months is enough time to figure out if they are going to make it or not. Dawson asked for an 18 month contract I believe and were okay with that, but our list is heavily congested in the 18-21 age group, there is a lot more demand on development coaches with kids and inexperienced players, If you are a side with a good mature list, they are in form and confidence isn't shot you have more resources to invest per kid you are developing. I think outside of a handful of players, most of the rest would likely be obtainable in the draft with a late round draft pick.

I think it is why s**t sides often take a lot longer to develop, we are far too reliant on the younger kids stepping up. If you look at the worst sides over the last few years, the ones doing better atm have the better mature players. We only have two A grade mature players, Goldy who is 34 or whatever and Cunnington who has missed two of the last three seasons. When he was up and running in the second half and we had Tarrant and a few other mature players running around, the optimism was a lot higher because and we were a lot more competitive.

There is the temptation to just throw a lot of talented kids out there, but it doesn't make for a good short-term look and you could potentially harm long-term development. I think the club will be looking to add a bit more maturity into the side over the pre-season but you still need quality there, you can't just shove in mediocre older player.

We have had too many musical chairs in terms of leadership from coaching to recruitment to development, I think it has made it harder to deploy a clear plan over a number of years, there needs to be some stability and consistency with what we are doing and I think the side just needs more mature support, our midfield is just physically under developed and they haven't played a lot of footy together as a group.